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$W$ cash, like everyone else who jumped. Sano probably was a little closer in a sense to Tenryu's reasons than say Kabuki's. Kabuki was looking for the gravytrain, though perhaps by the time he jumped he could see the hand writing that Misawa & Co. were really quite over opposite Jumbo. With Tenryu... he knew he was always going to be blocked by Jumbo from being the true #1, and by Baba from running the show. SWS gave him the chance to be the "boss" of his own promotion and also the #1 guy, while getting the biggest contract in the country at the time. Sano knew that Yamada was the chosen one in the junior division. At the time, the thought of an eventual move to the heavyweight division looked a long way off for him, and blocked by his age group already up there (Hash, Chono, Mutoh... Hase and Kosh just moving out of the jr division upward... Sasaki being a favorite of Choshu's). Take the money and jump. Probably in the back of some people's mind, they had seen Choshu and the UWF guys come back so there was always that fallback. But it also was an era were non-Big 2 was starting to do well. UWF did insane business in 1989 and early 1990 compared to what people thought was possible from an "indy". And Onita was starting to get off the ground. A "well funded" third promotion must of looked like a real good idea at the time. Anyway, you should work with Will on coming up with a Sano Set. Probably would open a lot of people's eyes to what an interesting career he's had. John

I think I suggested that someone make an exhaustive Sano comp. Peak really isn't important when talking about Sano. It's a long and varied career and worth really digging into. I also like than Daniel might be coming around to my "wandering master" theory on Sano, and that his career didn't crap out with his 01/31/90 loss to Liger. John

Not going to knock Han, and I agree with Dylan that this is an oddball comp: it's really hard to draw a parallel between the two. "Great Working #1 Gaijin In A Promotion" is the concept... I guess. There might be a good, long piece in that looking at how they played their roles in their respective long term promotions. Hansen's role did change and evolve over the years. But I think Hansen's 1993 is getting shorted if it's just about his Kobashi matches. Pretty much anytime he was in the ring with Kawada that year was electric, starting with the chair shot in the goofy battleroyal opening the years. Not focusing everything on the Budokan singles, but even their tags be they early series TV tapings or their bigger tags. Stuff like Kawada & Kobashi vs Hansen & Van Dam showed a green, goofy and not very good RVD... but if Hansen and Kawada were against each other, there was a buzz. Not to mention Stan working with Kobashi in it. The two Kawada & Taue vs Hansen & Dibiase matches were painful when Ted was in, but when Hansen was in especially against Kawada, it was buzz time as they tore into each other. Sadly the feud didn't have a blow off that year, but they brought the hate. The second Hansen vs Misawa, and the Hansen vs Misawa Carny Final weren't very good. But the Carny League match and the first Triple Crown match between the two were really solid, good matches. They worked together well in the Tag League match, and as much as I liked Baba and Kobashi's performances in the match, Stan was pretty exceptional as well in it. He even had a decent singles match with Taue. If he had a negative in the year it was that he didn't really have an acceptable tag team partner to step up into the tag title hunt. Spivey washed out in 1992. They tried Ace with Hansen, and it just wasn't a good fit. They brought Ted back, and it was clear from the first match that the style passed Ted by. If one thought it was rust in the first match, it was clear on the next series in the six man tags and the rematch. In a sense we're lucky Ted went down early in the tag league because it gave us the Hansen-Baba team and the second most memorable match of the tag league. There are some clunkers in the year, such as two of the four Misawa singles matches. But the two delivered in one of Misawa's key early TC defenses to seal Misawa as The Man since Jumbo wasn't around to do it. And on a weekly basis of TV, you're were likely to get a good performance out of Stan in 1993 even if the rest of the match wasn't quite up to his performance. John

I think you're misreading what's being said above. Ohtani was born in 1972, debuted in 1995, and was considered so good that it looked to some that he would be the one to eventually break through the stranglehold the Misawa-Kawada-Kobashi group had on the "best worker in the world" mantra of the era. Misawa: born in 1962, debuted in 1981 Kawada: born in 1963, debuted in 1982 Kobashi: born in 1967, debuted in 1988 There's the expericance and age factor: look at how much better than three got as the spent more time in the business, grew, etc. Ohtani was a pup, and projecting forward the potential for growth is pretty natural. It's what we did with Windham in 1986/87. Shawn Michaels in 1991... hell, both of those guys had more experiance and were older at those points than Ohtani. It's what we did with young Yamada/Liger, Owen, Akiyama, Mutoh, Benoit, Eddy, Juve, Rey, a slew of Joshi wrestlers, etc. It's what people did with Angle, Brock, Austin, Triple H, and on down the line. I'm not say above that in 1997 there was a concensus that Ohtani was the best in the world. I don't recall there being one, and my recollection is that his J-Crown reign in 1997 into 1998 was one of the things that took the bloom off the rose. I'm saying that it was pretty common in hardcore circles in late 1995 and early 1996 for the not-quite 24 year old Ohtani to be talked about as one of the very few young guys with the potential to be the heir to the AJPW guys for that worker crown. ============= Setting aside what became of Ohtani, I tend to think the comp points are reasonable for Angle up to that point in his career, especially Kobashi and Ohtani. By "reasonable", I mean that they were better than Angle was up to that point in his career in the ring. John

I would disagree. A criticism of Flair is that he does the same spots all the freaking time, "works the same match all the time", etc. It's a pretty valid thing to point out about Flair. But among the people in the early days of the newsletters pointing that out were the Funks, along with a lot of old time wrestlers. So when you're watching a Terry match and seeing Terry do some of the same old shit he does all the freaking time, I tend to think it's perfectly valid (and quite entertaining) to point out that Terry is working the same match. If one wants example, you can watch the Terry vs Hogan matches where Terry works pretty much the same match in each of them. No doubt Terry would blame Hogan for that, but it's as much the Terry spots that are repetative as the Hogan ones. So that's turning Terry's criticism of Flair back onto Terry. I frankly think it's perfectly valid to turn people's "trendy" comments back on them. No different from someone turning criticism I've tossed at Kobashi or Toyota or Flair over the years by pointing out Kawada or The Destroyer or Backlund doing the same thing. John

Ah, I see. Still, I'd think if you've been on the other side of it, you should know how stupid it is and know better than to do it yourself. I don't know. At times it's kind of fun to toss the criticism of one thing back in the direction of something else when there's a parallel. I certainly have some fun with it when I see wrestlers doing stuff that's "uncool" or "goofy" or "awkward" when Backlund does it. And I could see having some fun when one of the wrestlers you enjoyed in a "rethinking" or "revisionism" movement is slagged as being trendy to toss it at the next group of wrestlers who go through that process. John

At times it feels like one should change that "should be marketed" to "are marketed" to get what Dave is saying. The general point Snowden has been trying to make about whether UFC/MMA is a niche form of sport (or entertainment in the minds of folks like Dave) or whether UFC/MMA has a shot at being something bigger like the NFL, MLB, NCAA Hoops, NCAA Football, the NBA or Futbol in the rest of the world... it's a blindlying simple and obvious point. I suspect that Snowden feels stupified when people didn't/don't get the point when he tossed/tosses it out in general terms. But he soldiers on and dumps a lot of examples out in support, and picks apart the poor counter examples tossed back, closing off arguments while supporting his own. And he's pretty much hitting his head against the wall. One could nitpick an example or two of his (though none stick in my mind as red flags... I could add more to his womens tennis example, but it would end up supporting Snowden far more than what Dave tried to make of it). But what he's done to the other side isn't nitpicking: it's pretty much beaten their arguments with a club like a baby seal. Their way of ignoring that they've been clubbed to death is to simply talk over Snowden's points and ignore them, and instead shift the playing field over to things Snowden wasn't saying or disputing. Anyway, I think Jon's done a good job trying to get people to take the blinders off. John

You might not. My point is that it's about 99.99% likely that Jerome has seen the "trendy" spot tossed at Backlund and/or Destroyer. So he kind of has the right to lob it back at. John

My thought it the he's coming from the direction of other relooks/revisions getting labeled as "trendy" and "obsessions" before the Lawler/Fujiwara one. A few that I'm aware of and/or was involved in: Jumbo vs Tenryu, Jumbo Is Lazy, Destroyer Luv, Backlund Actually Wasn't A Shitty As The Old Consensus. Jerome has gotten around around to (and/or stayed at) a *lot* more boards that I have over the past decade. For every one of those four that I've seen, he's probably seen at least five spring up. My thought is that he's tossing "trendy" out here because he's seen it toss out in the past by folks who didn't agree with a revision and smacked it. It's a bit like we joke about Dave saying we need to respect the opinions of others (such as "the masses") in one breath, then ripping the opinions of others when they don't agree with his (be it his poll results or the current wars with Snowden). If you're going to say "It became trendy to love the Destroyer" or "they push Backlund beyond the point of obsession", you really need to be willing to take "It became trendy to love the Lawler" or "they push Fujiwara beyond the point of obsession" being tossed in your direction. Note: that's not to rip Lawler or Fujiwara or their lovers. I like Lawler and I haven't bothered *yet* to re-watch enough Fujiwara to revist when I thought of him when watching all that shit back in the early 90s. Some day. john

I don't see how anal in porn is any different from blading in wrestling, or sucking cock in porn is any different from the most basic thing in wrestling: bumping. I'm willing to make a deal with you, Dylan. I'll never make another analogy to sucking cock ("This sucked more cock than Linda Lovelace.") if you agree to never write another wrestling post that mentioned juice or blading in anyway, or talks about any bump or bumping in a match or bumping talents of a wrestler in anyway. "He was never going to carry a slug to anything special, but if you give him some one who is willing to bump for him, he's smart enough to work a compelling match with the tools he has." "Just a very good, hot babyface, great at taking bumps and illiciting sympathy and tremendous at timing offensive comebacks and making creative double team offense look effective and not hokey." "Sort of Flair like in that he had a standard match, standard bumps that he was going to get to, and not a whole lot of offense, but what he did he did well and he mixed things up far more than he is given credit for." That's one post back on 8-27. I'm not talking about avoiding variations of the word "bump". Flat out any talk of bumps or coming up with creative ways to get around using the term bump. I'd also point out that I did little more than mention an *act* (or three) which set people off. If I was working up a fantasy on the board, I might have actually described it. Along the lines of how a lot of go into some detail on blading and the amount of blood. "Point is that the match is a realistic massacre. Maybe to realistic. The closeup shot of Chiggy getting shoot stabbed with scissors is really cool..kind of... " I mean... that's getting beyond just the act of Chiggy blading into the detail of it *and* the pysch & storytelling of the match. I didn't even bother with an detail of Ginger's blowjobs or the pysch behind any of the scenes. *That* would have been trying to creep folks out. John

It's part that. But what in the hell were we talking about when Lawler Is A Pedo, or Savage Is A Pedo or Art Barr Is A Statutory Rapist? Ginger Lynn is a professional peformer in the porn business. Say she sucked cock is a bit like saying "Shawn Michaels Takes Bumps". Everyone in business does it (in the case of porn, all the female performers do it). It's no sensical to be shocked and outraged by it. Gets banged? Again, in the porn business, everyone does it. In the wrestling biz, it would be like saying "Undertaker throws punches." No shit... everyone in wrestling throws somekind of strike, and 95% of them punch. Ass? I went with that because Ginger was known for it, and it's akin to Flair being known in his prime as a big bleeder. Sure, lots of other people did it as well. But it was a regular feature in his matches in the 80s, and it wasn't a regular feature for everyone. Flair probably was up well over 50% in blading in his matcher. Ric was still bleeding in the 00's. Posted a couple of links, and it's a big creepy to watch someone in their late 50s bleed like a stuck pig after cutting himself up. Obviously I don't have a problem with blading in the business. But that Ric is still out there doing it at 50+... ugh. Nina has gone into a split role: part instructional/production, and part performer. A bit more limited on the strictly performer side, though I do see that she's working at a bit higher volume since the MILF/40+ niche has really exploded. In fact she did one with Ginger earlier this year for one of the larger girl-girl production companies. Ric never really wanted to go into being a non-wrestling performer, which would be the closest wrestling equiv to Nina's role in her instructional series. Non-wrestlers do still "perform" in wrestling, and Nina dos in her instructionals. Ric just can't let go of being a pro wrestler in the ring, and being a top one. So the Ginger analogy. One kind of wish that both had the ability to just retire, walk away, and stay away with a happy life away from their respective business... both of which are cesspools. John

Ric is a performer, not an athlete in a sport. Setting that aside, I player the the Meltzer types out there who need the sports comp by referencing Kareem playing in the NBA this year against Dwight Howard. If you want to make the analogy of Flair to Stallone playing Rocky and Rambo at the age of 59 and 60+, go for it. I skipped the Rocky one because it got run to death back around the time of his retirement... and to be honest, Hogan coming back for a run building to a title shot would be the better Rocky analogy since he's the bigger star. I went with porn because it fit the specific analogy I was trying to make. I would have loved to have seen Flair transitioned *years* ago into a strong, long term "out of the ring" performer. I don't mind seeing him on my TV helping get the product and wrestlers over. I just don't care to see him in the ring as a "wrestler" performing as he gotten older, shittier, more pathetic, and more sad to watch. It struck me as a porn star still working in their 50s and 60s because it's the only way they know how to make a living, and they've blown so much of what they've made in the past *or* it's the only way they can get the juice they need to feel like their life is worth living. John

Snorting coke isn't actually part of the job of being a professional poker player, no matter what Stu was telling people to get them to loan him money. So in that sense the comparison doesn't quite work. Actually if you read a few people like Antonio, you'll find that a lot of people who go deep in the longer tournies take the equiv of "performance enhancers" simply to stay awake and "sharp" through long sessions. In the Stu's days, it was coke or uppers. Now people Red Bull their asses off... but there's still plenty uppers (which no one talks about) and plenty of coke. Part of the job description? No. But it's a bit like juice and pain killers not being part of the job description in wrestling. They just happen to be very common. Why wait for Kurt to die. We already have someone who dropped dead on the road in their hotel room and was fighting demons for a decade that he couldn't control and stayed in a lifestyle that constantly led him back down the wrong path: John

Yep, there's no doubt that I'm the only poster in the history of online wrestling discussion to have talked about a performer (be it an actress, model, porn star, singer, wrestler, diva, etc) who I found hot. It's as if you've never been to a board where someone has a hottie as an Avatar or in their Signature File. "If you really need to know why I object to you using an avatar of a woman you beat off to, then you really have no clue." "WTF are you talking about?" John

Beats the shit out of me why we need to be blunt. People can talk about Lawler being a pedo, or have that long ass thread about Savage banging "14 year old Steph"... Cornette and the freaking banana, DDP and Bischoff double teaming Kim... christ, the Sleaze Thread over on DVDVR was/is one of the most beloved and revered threads in online wrestling history and more than one person who is being a pantywaste in this thread flat out LOVED~! participating in that and other sleeze threads. Give me a fucking break. I've never met a porn star, nor have any desire to. I'm perfectly fine watching them perform in the comfort of my own home. When did you guys turn into grads of Regent University? John

People have been ripping David and Kevin for years. It's just that no one listened. John

I don't think anyone trained six years before debuting back then. I'm not sure how much trainees are at ringside, or if they are, how much they are at ringside for the upper parts of the card that made TV. You typically see a combo of young boys (wrestlers who've debuted but don't have a ton of experiance) and wrestlers associated with whoever is in the match. It's possible that the trainees pull ringside duty for the prelims. Someone probably could watch one of the PPV's / full shows from the early 00's and see how many trainees are at ringside before their debut, and where on the cards one sees them. Anyway, it's almost certainly not Taue. John

We laughed at the thing from damn near start to finish. Just felt sad and pathetic watching him in it, similar to how we felt watching him against Taker, Foley, Edge and Shawn. Of course I've felt like that since watching him in there against Vader at Starcade when he came across as really, really, really old. Not really. No different from Stu Unger's nose rotting away from all the coke he snorted up over the years, until he finally dropped dead after his last great moment (and arguably the high point of his career). John

Debuted in 1988 (as did Kobashi), so it's unlike it was him way back in 1982. John

*bump* Before we get too side drained on Flair & Ginger, was there another Dave-Snowden thread after the Josh Gross one? John

And I wish that I proof read that item that Tom keeps quoting. Typos-o-plenty. John

When I see "trendy" up above by Tom, I can't help but think of "MOVES~!" John