jdw

The "when" was the Carny right after this... which wasn't a TV taping, and has never turned up on handheld yet. Really sad.

Didn't vote for him. Not at all against voting for him, but I haven't done a submersion in his Portland work. The chunks that I've seen, I like and think he's a damn good worker. But his case for being an all time great worker isn't a Hokuto-Kandori match standing out on the Mt Rushmore of matches, but a load of strong matches fitting into storylines. In a sense a bit like Dandy and Santito: they're not way up there due to singlular epic matches (though they have them), but for the weight of match after match bearing down on you that, "Damn... he's having another good one" or "Damn he's really solid in there." At some point I'll get to Portland in depth. It's not like the HOF is shutting down next week, so there's time to watch and advocate. I think you know that if I dig him remotely close to how high you place him, I'll advocate the shit out of him. On the flip side, I did vote for a pair of guys you advocated strongly. It's possible that those votes will positively impact their candidacies though they are likely at the board of the two extremes of the % cutoffs. So... your efforts probably will be more positive than you think.

Completely agree with this. Said above: there was a chance to fix this after Angle, it was a known problem since the original reasoning was moot at that point (Joshi retirements at 25 years of age), and it wouldn't have impacted anyone on the ballot yet... and frankly would have allowed focus on clearing some people off the ballot.

I think you have us confused with other people. We do know who votes. We do know voting patterns. Some of us were voting before there actually was voting. In turn, we've also spent year discussing the flaws in the voters, the voting process and the voting patterns. We've also questions the candidacies of guys like Shawn, Taker and Angle when they were on the ballot, all the while saying that of course they'll eventually go it. I suspect one of the posters here said Danielsen was a lock years before just about anyone else. We're vastly more self aware than folks like you think, specifically because we live outside the bubble and echo chamber. When someone like Dylan advocates Ken Patera, it's not because he thinks Ken has a good chance of getting in, but instead to try to understand Ken's candidacy himself and then share the "argument" with others. And what do you know: he's had some success getting people to think more about it, to the degree that a year ago Dave was completely dismissive of Ken and now says Ken has more positives than he thought. In turn, a decade ago when people were discussing Shawn, the people "critical" of his candidacy weren't expecting to keep him out. Of course he would go in. But the goal was to get people to think deeper and longer about him, and to marshal their arguments. In the end, it took a few years for Shawn to get in, and he was given a hell of a lot more thought than 90% of the people who've gone in. Tanahashi is no different. Those voting for him see him as a dunker, which really isn't a thoughtful HOF candidacy... but WTF. Inside the bubble, it's a dunk and that's that. Who knows if he'll never get in. People have dropped off the ballot, and then gotten back on it and in. Good lord, I don't even want to think of the number of folks we completely screwed up on in the Class of 1996 who should have been first ballot and didn't get in. I mean for fucks sake, exactly when were any of the Matsunaga Brothers going to get in if I didn't didn't get gobsmacked about our long ago fuck up, and mention it to Dave. It's embarrassing that it took 15+ years for me to notice we missed him, for Dave not to have noticed it, and for 100% of the "experts" who have been handed out ballots over the years to not have had a clue to say something. But, hey... those are the voters you want to pimp to me as knowing shit all about pro wrestling. Seriously, you're pimping to me the historic nature of Tanahashi... so why in the fuck is it me, some one totally lacking in self awareness of past WON HOF Screw Ups who has to clean up one of the currently biggest two screw ups of the WON HOF rather then a new age puroresu expert like you? The WON HOF voters are a narrow band of people in the business and fans. I remember a funny thread where Dave and another poster made a serious claim that if Maeda were on the ballot at that time (roughly 2006ish), he wouldn't get voted in. Dave didn't take to kindly when I pointed out that a reflection of how many idiots he's passed out ballots to if Maeda didn't hit 60%, and a reflection on Dave for giving ballots to them. So that WON voters don't know that Rose could go doesn't mean Rose couldn't go. The majority of WON voters know little about Dick Beyers other than being a name on a list, and even less about his work. That doesn't mean Dick wasn't a great worker. It means that voters don't care to educate themselves. Insult? We weren't insulted. We thought you were being ironically hypocritical, and not self aware about it. Again: you assume that someone like Bix thinks Rose is going in this year, or the next. That's not what Bix is saying. He's saying that Rose is a great worker, and that most people who are either aware of his work or take the time to delve deeply into it in the context of Rose's time come away with the same opinion. If people chose not to educate themselves or put the effort into studying something like that, it's not a poor reflect on Bix: it's on the voter. And the typical voters can be wrong. There were less than two handfuls of "voters" in 1996, and probably all of four of us who really mattered on 95% of the guys who got in... in the sense that I could look at that list and come up with maybe 5% who weren't already "yes" guys before Dave flew back to the US. But in turn... I could look at that list, and guys who came later, and find plenty of people who we completely fucked up on. We screwed up on Bob Backlund. That was 100% on Dave and me, and something we realized by the MSG book at which point it was too late to simply put him in: a larger group of people had to vote him in, and that was a motherfucker to convince them to get in. We screwed up on Carpentier, were embarrassed by that and fixed it fast. We screwed up on Longson, and I cringe looking at how long it took for that to get fixed. Jack Curley embarrassed the shit out of me for how long it took. Point: the voters are wrong. A lot. Typical ones. Even the non-typical ones like Dave himself, or cranky old bastard ones like me who were there from the start. We fuck up. You fuck up. There are people who are in who shouldn't be, and still people who are out who should be in. So while you want to wrap yourself in the sacred flag of the typical voters: 1. We far more aware of the voters tastes than you think 2. We far less myopic on the infallibility of the voters (including ourselves) than you think I don't think that self awareness word means what you think it means, at least in trying to apply it to people here just as the fetish nonsense. We've been involved in HOF discussions long before you were. We were voting before you were. We get it far more than you think, and were candidates we think critically about (both positively and negatively) fit into the path to the Hall. John

There's no evidence to suggest that Hughes wasn't tossed from Mr. Mom. Hughes was consistent about that from his earliest interviews and it's been corroborated by others. Daniel: I'm not saying he wasn't pitched. I'm saying that over the last two decades there have been varying stories about the pitching, which are a bit like David Von Erich dying. He died. The explanation of the death varied over time based on who was telling it, and who had an agenda to spin it to. But the end result if also the same: Huges was the sole writer credited on both, and he got his 3 picture, $30M deal off them. They put him on the map... unless you think Hollywood was just handing out deals like that in 1983. I don't give a crap about what was on the table when he pitched TBC. The guy had been writing and pitching shit for years. It's not like everything he ever pulled out of his creative ass got made. But in the end, when he got his Deal to make Sixteen Candles, he ended up making TBC as the second movie of his Universal deal. On the cheapo end? Yes. Really nicely profitable? Yep. We agree. It launched people's careers or made them stars? We disagree when walking through the individual actors... well... I assume we do since you've side stepped that point when I walk through it. Buried it in February? It opened in a reasonable number of theaters for February, more than Witness did the prior weak with Ford coming off four monster hits in his prior five movies. Buried is January. Who is saying otherwise? My comment was no one thought it would do $200M. It was a phenom. Good lord, I live through it being a phenom and getting dragged out to it several different times with several different groups of friends and family. Again... who said it wasn't given a huge push. My comment was that it making $150M was a big surprise. We have this mental image of Sly making all these massive hits, but heading into Rambo it was just the three Rockys, none of them did that number, and even the "successful" First Blood didn't get to $50M let alone $100M. Folks thought Rambo had a chance to be a big hit. But $150M is a whole 'nother level. In the 80s prior to that: Empire, Raiders, ET, Tootsie, Jedi, Beverly Hills Cop, Ghostbusters and Indy II. Those are phenoms or sequels to phenoms. The theater number is cool. My thought would be to look up how many Cannonball Run II and Red Dawn opened up in the prior year, and how much money those two made. Push doesn't equal box office. Which you know. Going back to the original point: Sly and MJF were bigger stars than Molly.

Which is why I went with a niche fetishism example, knowing Phil wouldn't.

Niche fetishism? You do realize that puroresu is a niche fetishism within a niche fetishism of hardcore fandom? It's basically lesbian porn within the large niche industry of porn. New Japan 2013 is Girlfriend Films, and Tanahashi is Prinzzess. So your meme of knocking other niches within the industry that folks like is pretty laughable. I mean, I get it. I use to be a hardcore fan who was a Flair Fan in the 80s and 90s, enjoyed looking down my nose at those silly WWF workers like Hogan, and it made me feel all warm and fuzzy will in the Forum with 2000 fans while Hogan was over at the Sports Arena drawing 14000. We all need what makes us feel warm and fuzzy, and justifies what we hold dear about niches within the niche.

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't say they were shit. But I also tended to get tired of matches pimped to me as ***** classics being sub **** when watching them, or feeling tedious to watch in the sense of "Hero-Tozawa and Generico-Ricochet were more entertaining than this shit" and it wasn't like I was rating those ****1/2 matches. Of course my standards are a bit fucked up: I got to see those All Japan guys live back in their prime.

He works a style that HOF workers prefer? I didn't know he works like Steamboat. Or Stevens. Or Destroyer. Or Jumbo. Or Kawada in his prime. Or Debiase (who in 1996 got in for his work). Or... Serious, how many HOF Workers work like Tanahashi? I mean, I helped select and/or voter for the overwhelming majority of the HOF Workers in the WON HOF. There's a slight disconnect if say 50%+ (i.e. generally prefer) don't strike me as working Tanahashi-style. John

"I'll be damned..." *glares* "Aw fuck me..."

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling. No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor. "Hey man... leave me out of this shit!" -Harold Miner

Wait... you're kidding me. They didn't run 5+ nights at Sumo Hall like they did from 1993-96? A freaking HOFer at the peak of his "I'm A Big Fucking Draw" prime who can only anchor the promotion to 2 cards at Sumo Hall, one which is woefully short of a sellout and the other that probably was a worked sellout? Wait... what does that say for Koshinaka main eventing three straight G1 nights at Sumo Hall in 1996, all of them fine matches? "Sheeeeeeeeeeeetttttt!"

You have to understand that working in the big leagues is different than that indy stuff Londos. The quality of work is entirely different. John

We talked about this a few pages back: it's not clear that there are massive amounts of money to be made by a content provider of the WWE's level via Netflix or some other services like that. Money for sure, but big massive amounts? $100M a year levels? Same thing with subs.

The domestic fee increase this year is from new programing like Divas, and over having a full year of Main Event and the comp of months where they had Saturday Morning Slam this year and not last year. SMS will wash out: four months and change last year, and four months and change this year. Main Event in the last quarter will likely wash out with last year's debut in the final quarter, but you get 9 more months of it this year. Divas of course is new. What the WWE wants is a significant jump in Raw and SD. I don't see those growing 50% like a lot of the leagues have done. Will they try to squeeze other revenue out? Yep. Some will sustain for a while like Main Event. Divas has a shelf life, though I think shorter than the WWE probably thinks. SMS didn't even last 12 months. The core falls back to Raw and SD unless the get other revenue for programing (Network / Library). Overall rates going up? Yep as the continue to try to push internationally. I've been pushing back for years at the notion that they're a PPV company when in fact they've been a TV Production company for ages: rights fees + additional attendance of TV shows + merch sold at TV shows are massive elements of their revenue.

I get that when I watch Tanahashi matches: they bore the shit out of me about as much as the 10/98 & 6/99 AJPW Misawa vs Kobashi matches do... not to mention their 3/03 match in NOAH. And I'm kind of just a bit of a small All Japan fan. When I've forced myself to watch pimped ***** Tanahashi matches, I've yet to see one that I would give ****+ to if I still gave a shit about sprinkling snowflakes. They just strike me as masturbatory excursions. To me, people waking off to Tanahashi is little different from what we got when people were circling jerking to Davey Richards a couple of years ago, and to Joe & American Dragon & Co. a few years before that. And it's not that I don't enjoy the occasional "modern wrestling" match. I've been to a fair number of PWG matches live that I thought were perfectly entertaining. I just wasn't sprinkling ***** or ****1/2 on any of them. I mean, matches can be plenty entertaining without having to say it's the best lay that you've ever had. John

I worry about this. I don't think the bottom is going to fall out, but if the Networks / Cable Channels view the WWE as "entertainment programing" rather than something close to Sports "Watch It Live!" programing, there is always a threshold where the Cost of the programing rubs up against what the network is willing to Pay for it. We've seen decently rated cable shows / lower end network shows get the plug pulled on them because the cost component makes the network move on. The WWE remains big cable ratings on some level. But if Comcast felt they were extremely valuable, they probably would have tried to lock them up before now and not risk them getting out on the market. I also think that if they saw wrestling as extremely valuable, they would have been wanting to JV badly with G4 rather than just let it die, and cut Vince a favorable enough deal on % and the valuation of G4 to make him roll over. I don't see the WWE's rates going up 50%+. Perhaps I'll be surprised, but... I think Comcast is going to want to save their bullets for: * NBA * Big 10 Football/Basketball * NASCAR (already fired and won) * Notre Dame They're not going to get the NBA without overpaying for it, which perhaps they might try. It's programing from Nov-May/Jun, critical for NBCSN and with a Finals (if they steal ESPN's half) that can roll into their shitty primetime lineup. Again... they're not likely to win it. The Big 10 is the last of the college conferences that has rights open until the next decade... some of them well into the next decade. ESPN, Fox and CBS all have a piece of the college pie. NBC's is just ND football, which is limited. The Big 10's non-BTN programing is 3-4 games a week in football, letting you pick the Game of the Week for NBC (like CBS usually gets of the SEC), and 2 games over onto NBCSN. It's a pretty big deal. Comcast have overpaid for pretty much everything they've won: NHL, MLS, NASCAR, EPL. In the long term the way carriage right for sports networks are growing, NBCSN getting strong is a bigger priority than USA Network retaining Raw. So... there's some risk of the WWE overplaying their hand if they don't already have a number of suitors knocking on their door. Another reason why a WWE network is key in the long term: it avoids getting squeeze by the networks/channels by giving them a back up to move programing.

On the Comcast front, I would go back to the table of looking to JV with them in the coming deal. Comcast has JV's for The Weather Channel, TV One, PBS Kids Sprout, Esquire Network (former Style). It is funny that Comcast has essentially let G4 die by overpricing it to the WWE and UFC. They've killed off the remaining major carriers for it... just silly on their part, and to a degree the WWE. If a stupid as Esquire Network can get on the air to replace a dying niche network, there really is no reason the WWE and Comcast couldn't have gotten together at the same time to "save" G4 with the WWE Network.

I don't think the WWE was trying at the $0.07 level, nor have they been smart in looking for a partner to joint venture with to help them get clearance. John

Looking at the results, he didn't have a break in 1989 other than (i) when the company was off anyway after Mania, and (ii) the injury. 04/04/89 Glens Falls - Superstars taping (vs Bossman in cage) 04/05/89 Syracuse - Challenge taping (vs Bossman in cage) The WWF then went on a Euro tour, which he was given off it appears. As soon as they were back: 04/22/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage) 04/23/89 Toronto - house show (vs Savage) 04/24/89 MSG - house show (vs Savage) 04/25/89 Des Moines - Challenge/SNME taping (SNME match vs Bossman in cage) 04/26/89 Omaha - Superstars taping (vs Bossman in cage) 04/29/89 Detroit - house show (vs Savage) 04/29/89 Richfield - house show (vs Savage) 05/12/89 Los Angeles - house show (vs Savage) 05/13/89 San Francisco - house show (vs Savage) 05/14/89 Sacramento - house show (vs Savage) 05/19/89 Chicago - house show (vs Savage) 05/20/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage) 05/21/89 Toronto - house show (vs Savage) 05/27/89 Calgary - house show (vs Savage) 05/28/89 Edmonton - house show (vs Savage) 05/29/89 Montreal - house show (vs Savage) 06/03/89 Boston - house show (vs Savage) 06/04/89 Portland, ME - house show (vs Savage) 06/05/89 Cedar Rapids - house show (vs Savage) 06/09/89 Dallas - house show (vs Savage) 06/10/89 Houston - house show (vs Savage) 06/11/89 San Antonio - house show (vs Savage) 06/16/89 Los Angeles - house show (vs Savage) 06/17/89 Oakland - house show (vs Savage) 06/18/89 Sacramento - house show (vs Savage) 06/19/89 Phoenix - house show (vs Savage) 06/22/89 Hartford - house show (vs Savage) 06/23/89 St. Paul - house show (vs Savage) 06/24/89 Auburn Hills - house show (vs Savage) 06/25/89 Richfield - house show (vs Savage) 07/06/89 Boise - house show (vs Savage) 07/07/89 Spokane - house show (vs Savage) 07/08/89 Edmonton - house show (vs Savage) 07/14/89 Baltimore - house show (vs Savage) 07/15/89 Birmingham - house show (vs Savage?) 07/16/89 Houston - house show (vs Savage) 07/18/89 Worcester - Superstars / SNME taping (SNME match vs HTM) 07/21/89 Indianapolis - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage) 07/22/89 St. Louis - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage) 07/23/89 Grand Rapids - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage) 07/28/89 Nashville - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage) 07/30/89 Milwaukee - house show (Beefcake sub vs Savage) And he returns the following week: 08/04/89 Memphis - house show (vs Savage - "Hogan's return match after suffering a pinched nerve") 08/05/89 Salt Lake City - house show (vs Savage) 08/08/89 Oakland - Superstars taping (vs Savage) 08/08/89 Fresno - Challenge taping (vs Savage) 08/18/89 Wheeling - house show (vs Savage) 08/19/89 Philadelphia - house show (vs Savage) 08/21/89 Binghamton - house show (vs Savage) 08/26/89 Richmond - house show (vs Savage) 08/27/89 Providence - house show (vs Savage) 08/28/89 East Rutherford - SummerSlam (vs Savage & Zeus) 08/29/89 Springfield - Challenge taping (vs Savage) 08/30/89 Portland - Superstars taping (vs Savage) 9/8, 9/9, 9/10, 9/11, 9/15, 9/16, 9/17, 9/20, 9/21, 9/22, 9/23, 9/24, 9/29, 9/30 Same thing in October, with Hogan-Savage finally ending 10/13 in Paris (match was taped and out there on CHV releases), and the Bad News series starting at Nassau Coliseum on 10/20. Like mentioned above, Hogan-Savage drew a ton of people, especially relative to the rest of the WWF. It's always stuck with me because everyone thought it would bomb after Mania since the Chase was over. Instead... people wanted to see him kick Savage's ass some more, with multiple shows in most cities. Hogan working weekends let them stretch it out all the way to 10/13, which in this day and age would be mind numbing: 4/2 Mania to 10/20, setting aside the Zeus cage match in December. That's seven PPV cycles in 2013: April - WrestleMania May - Extreme Rules June - Payback July - Money in the Bank August - Summer Slam September - Night of Champions October - Battleground or Hell in a Cell Wow. You just can't keep running a feud like that anymore.

Suburban Commando was released in October 1991, so the filming would have lined up with this: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/90.htm WWF @ LaCrosse, WI - LaCrosse Center - May 15, 1990 WWF Superstars taping: WWF Superstars 5/26/90 - featured Hulk Hogan and Earthquake as guests of the Brother Love Show in which Earthquake attacked Hogan from behind with a chair and repeatedly hit the sit-down splash until Hogan was taken backstage on a stretcher (Hogan's last appearance for two months) First appearance back: WWF @ Omaha, NE - Civic Auditorium - July 16, 1990 (10,303; sell out) Saturday Night's Main Event #27 "Wild Kingdom" - 7/28/90 on NBC (7.2) - featured McMahon conducting an in-ring interview with Hulk Hogan, who thanked the fans for their letters and cards of support while he was out of action following Earthquake's attack and promised to reply to each and every one; Hogan then discussed his match with Earthquake at Summer Slam; moments later, Earthquake, Dino Bravo, and Jimmy Hart appeared ringside and cornered Hogan until Tugboat made the save He was actually out for almost another month before his first match back: WWF @ Providence, RI - Civic Center - August 8, 1990 (15,000; sell out) WWF Superstars taping: Hulk Hogan (w/ the Big Bossman) pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Earthquake & Jimmy Hart) at 8:40; the match was advertised as Tugboat, with Hogan in his corner, against Earthquake, with Bravo in his corner (Mega Matches) I'm thinking that's the Suburban Commando stuff.