jdw

Okay... so if they changed the entire business, why not next year? Those are some dudes who collective should have been in back in 1996. Why wait for 2015 rather than start the push in 2014? One of the things that pissed me off about Saito going in is that it was another blow to Ishingundan: "We'll, Choshu is in and Saito is in. Those are the big stars." *jdw bangs head against wall* No one is slowing down Dave handing out ballots like candy. We shouldn't slow down getting good candidates on the ballot, and making arguments for them. I mean... THE FUCKING ASSASSINS?!?! John

I'd like the thread to go another way if we could -- the other variants of this involved people just stomping on various ideas. Maybe we could get all of that out of the system and then entertain the what ifs? And how they might have got to it. That's probably more "fun". We are entertaining the What Ifs and looking at them one at a time. Some of the What If's are just flat out no's. Little different as in the case of the Race and Backlund threads. There just aren't 30 possibilities out there. There likely aren't 10. There might not even be 5. Race kept the belt for 4.5 years. It's not because he was the hottest greatest NWA Champ of all time. He was solid-good, did good enough business for folks, and no one else was bursting out at the seems as having to have the belt (kind of like Buddy's long overdue reign). It took them 4.5 years of Race to agree to put it on Flair. It's not like Flair was an unknown heel by 1979. But it also wasn't like there was a majority to put it on him rather than Race. NWA Champ was kind of a special thing at the time when it came to the long term (year long + ) champs. John

80s / modern? Uh... no. John

What was Bob up to at the time? Did anyone see him close to that level? The NWA Title wasn't like Vince Sr. putting the title on Bob with Bob not having done a lot before that. The NWA Champs tended to have done some shit before getting the belt, and been high on the cards in places. John

He was good in his role, but it was a WWF "character" rather than an NWA Heel Champ role. I also don't know how good he was early in it, and it's something that he grew more comfortable in over time. It's been a long time since I've seen it, I never thought much of if (largely because I like Rick as a face), and... it never really got over as something that could be pushed beyond the midcard. He didn't have the strength of personality to take it higher. An example: Razor Ramon was an even dumber WWF "character". But Hall really made it worked, got his shit down in it, and he did well. On some level, if a bit more focus was put on it/him, he could have challenged for the WWF title as a heel or a face. Less over people on both sides got pushed up to the title challenger spots... I'm guessing less over people *won* the title in the time Hall was doing Razor in the WWF. Martel didn't seem to have that in him. He worked hard at the model, but it was just there. Hall worked hard at Ramon, and the shit worked. :/

I don't think there's a distinction between Race and those earlier champs. I doubt there was any distinction between Race and Terry, let alone any between him and Buddy Rogers. Brisco? Maybe. But let's be honest that he was *instantly* so good as a heel in the feud with Steamboat & Youngblood, and was so good as a heel against Jumbo, that it wasn't something he pulled out of his ass. He likely played heel a lot. Suspect Dory played heel more than we think... but he likely was boring as shit at it. Lou wasn't even the "best" in his match with Verne. That's the point: it was clear that he was making Verne look like the best (or Verne was that good of a face where he just flat out looked like the best). It wasn't savy or cunning: he was getting his ass kicked. We don't really know a lot of how Dory or Brisco worked in territories: we've got dick for footage. A lot of memories are St Louis based, which really was a different way of working that how Dory was going to working going into a territory with a super over babyface. I kind of doubt that Dory was working with Fritz in Dallas like he was working with Baba in Japan: Baba wanted "sport" and a non-heel champ was fine by him, while Fritz wanted his opponent to show ass and put over Fritz as the Uncrowned Champ. Again... Buddy Rogers. There really isn't any evidence that the Territories *ever* wanted a Touring NWA Champ to come in and work regularly against the Local Hero as a Face vs Face or as a Neutral vs Neutral. Rich as a year long champ? Not as all. If Ted was Champ, he was going to become a heel. Fritz wouldn't have wanted anything else working with his boys. JCP wouldn't have wanted it working against Steamer and the other JCP faces. Dusty in Florida would have wanted Ted to bitch out for him. I mean... can we think of any NWA Territory in 1982 that would have wanted a "tweener" NWA Champ? St Louis maybe, but it's not even a territory: it was a city. Race's replacement would have been someone playing heel.

One thing I always suggest to people when blocking these out is to take a look at how some of the following channels program: * Food Network * Discovery * low end sporting (which would now be ESPU, and these early days of NBCSN and Fox Sports 1) The value in this is to see how the block out: * infomercial time * Primetime * re-air of Primetime * balance of weekday schedule * weekend schedule The most important reason to do this is understand that you don't have to come up with 24 hours of programing a day. Discovery does infomercials from 3am - 9am ET on weekdays. Food appears to do it from 5am -9:30am on weekdays. When I looked at NBCSN recently, they were 3:00am - 7:00am on weekdays. So right off the bat, you can knock off 4-6 hours a day of programing because you're selling it to infomercials. Then you look at the Primetime. Here's Food for tonight: 6:00 PM Food Network's 20th Birthday Party 7:00 PM Restaurant Divided "Against Da Grill" 8:00 PM Restaurant Express "Tantrum in Temecula" 9:00 PM Food Network's 20th Birthday Party 10:00 PM Restaurant Divided "Against Da Grill" 11:00 PM Restaurant Express "Tantrum in Temecula" Here's Discovery, next Tuesday to pick a day when they have a fully "new" primetime: 8:00 PM Moonshiners: Outlaw Cuts "A Shiner in Kentucky" (new) 9:00 PM Moonshiners "Swamp Shiners" (new) 10:00 PM Porter Ridge "Car Crush Party" (new) 10:30 PM Porter Ridge "Porter Ridge Bear Fair" (new) 11:00 PM Moonshiners "Swamp Shiners" 12:00 AM Porter Ridge "Car Crush Party" 12:30 AM Porter Ridge "Porter Ridge Bear Fair" 1:00 AM Moonshiners: Outlaw Cuts "A Shiner in Kentucky" I've rounded the times, since Discovery is one of those annoying channels that will start new programs a minute or two before an hour, or ended it a minute or two behind a normal time slot. Anyway, you see what they're doing? Both have 3 hours of "new" programing, or anchor programing in Primetime... then instantly re-runs in. Those three hours knock off 6 hours of programing. There's a big chunk of the day: 6 hours of infomercial + 3 hours of PT + 3 hours of PT Re-run. Wait... big chunk of the day is an underestimate: it's half the day, 12 out of 24 hours. Then look at how they fill the non-PT, and fill it up: 9:00 AM I (Almost) Got Away With It "Got to Run With My Buddy" 10:00 AM Disappeared "Danger at Dusk" 11:00 AM Wicked Attraction "Lesbians and the Little Man" 12:00 PM Sins & Secrets "Newry" 1:00 PM Deadliest Catch "Greenhorns" 2:00 PM Porter Ridge "Anything Tows" 2:30 PM Porter Ridge "The Heat Is On" 3:00 PM Moonshiners "Adios, Mr. Still" 4:00 PM Moonshiners "Moonshine Treasure Hunt" 5:00 PM Moonshiners "Last Shiner Standing" 6:00 PM Moonshiners "Hat in Hand" 7:00 PM Moonshiners "Time to Shine" [...] 2:03 AM Moonshiners "Time to Shine" Since Porter Ridge and Moonshiners is the anchor in Primetime, they run a slew of those shows leading into PT, with the one leading into PT (likely last week's episode) re-running after PT. Those things earlier in the day? Deadliest Catch is one of their long running hits. I (Almost) Got Away With It is something they done a million of. On other words, Discovery (and Food) aren't running 24 hours of "new" (or First Run On The Network) material a day. Far, far far from it. Beyond that, look at their weekend lineups, where they'll often due a Marathon of some show. I don't know how many times I've flow to or from back east where I stumble upon a Mythbusters marathon that help makes the flight go fast. * * * * * The WWE is in much better shape. They have a slew of shows they can "strip" into hour slots to fill up daytime / non-PT programing. Old Raw, Nitro, Thunder, SmackDown, Worldwide, WCCW, etc, etc. This is stuff that costs very little money in new "costs", especially since a lot of work was already done on them for 24/7. Do the math on how many hours of Raw have been produced over the years (including commercials), and how splitting it into 1 hour blocks (including commercials), and how many 5-days a week, 52 weeks a year it would take to run through that. Given Raw is now taping 3 hours of "new" content a week, basically it would be ages before WWE Network would need to "restart" their daily Raw block airing at 12-1pm. So... Work backwards: * how much infomercial time a day I'd stick with 6 hours at launch just to let people at the network focus on just 18 hours of slots to fill. While it's easy to fill up a lot of hours with old programing, it's probably better to start with stuff like Raw to see how it draws, and how much work you need to do to get it on the air. * How big of a "Primetime" / Anchor block 8-11? 7-11? etc. I get that primetime is officially 8-11. But some channels will focus on the 7pm hour to get a jump, and do business while throwing away the 10-11 if it doesn't demo well for them. The big point is whether you're looking at 3 or 4 hours of anchor material * Brand New Material This is beyond "First Run" material. Having PPV Thursday's anchoring your Thursdays, airing a whole PPV... that's first run on the network. New Material would be like moving SmackDown to the Network every Friday... or doing a live House Show every Saturday. So how much New material do you want a week. This is the shit that's going to take the most work, cost the most money... potentially get the best ratings, but also if it's something that bombs (say no one wants to watch Divas) is going to have cost you a lot to produce a freaking bomb. There is no way in hell the WWF is going to be able to roll out 21 hours of "new" material a week: 3 hours a day. For example, here is what's listed as "new" for Food from Sat-Fri next week: Saturday 10:00 AM The Pioneer Woman "Turkey Day Leftovers" 10:30 AM Trisha's Southern Kitchen "No Fuss Thanksgiving" 8:00 PM Cupcake Wars "Match.Com" Sunday 10:00 AM Guy's Big Bite "Grateful Duck" 10:30 AM Southern at Heart "Southern Comforts" 11:00 AM The Pioneer Woman "Old Friends, New Friends" 11:30 AM Farmhouse Rules "Fall Feast on the Farm" 8:00 PM Guy's Grocery Games "Feisty Fiesta" 9:00 PM Restaurant Express "Express: Impossible" 10:00 PM On the Rocks "Motor City Meltdown" Monday 10:00 PM Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives "All Kinds of Gobble Gobble" Tuesday 10:00 PM Chopped "Cloche Call" Wednesday 9:00 PM Restaurant: Impossible "Restaurant More Impossible" 10:00 PM Restaurant: Impossible "Soul Searching" Thursday 10:00 PM Restaurant Divided "Phamous Phil's" That's 11 hours of New content. In 7 days. I'm sure there are weeks where it's more. There likely are weeks where it's less. So don't think that you need to come up with 21 hours of New Productions every week. Certainly not at first. * Episodes per Season Okay... if you've got SmackDown eventually on the Network, that obviously is a 52 week season. But within cable, very few shows even run the 22-24 episode seasons that the Major Networks do. Mythbusters has been around for ages, and does tend to do longer seasons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MythBusters_episodes This is standard for scripted TV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mad_Men_episodes Some will go 16, some will go 12. But one thing you see is some of these split to 2 "seasons" per year, and get their 20+ that way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Duck_Dynasty_episodes UFC does two of these a year, about 12 episodes + The Finale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_...vs._Team_Sonnen So if you're thinking about a WWE: Behind The Music type show, you don't need to product 52 of those a year. You don't even need to do 24 of them. You want to build up a rotation of the shows. The positive thing about doing 12 of them is that if it's a total bomb, you've only invested in 12. If it's a hit, then you can roll out a "new season" in the second half of the year. So... Think like a Network. And to think like a Network, study up on how they do it. The WWE has a massive advantage because of their massive Library. It makes filling up non-primetime hours easy, especially when you're trying to fill as many brainless hours (i.e. ones that don't take a lot of effort) early so that you can focus more on PT and other elements of the Network. Their negative is that they don't have a lot of obvious New Content, and honestly... a WWE SportCenter type show of 1 hour every night isn't going to draw consistently. So New Content is going to have to be a slow process, and instead you'll need to look at Old Content that can be treated as more than just re-running Raw. Things like old PPV's, DVD features, DVD's themselves, House Shows (old or new), etc. to fill up most of the 21 hours a week of primetime. More than that, you've seen from Food that even after years of being on the air, and being one of the most successful niche channels in the country, 11 hours of New Content next week. It ends up being a hell of a lot less than you think. WWE Network's model isn't ESPN or NBCSN or even dead Fox Soccer Channel. It's those other niches channels. Need enough in Primetime to get people to tune in with higher than test pattern numbers. But it's not like the WWE is going to fill it up with the amount of New Content that ESPN does in a year. That's impossible. John

Terry had worked as a heel for ages. He could work both. The NWA Heel Champ was a concept going back all the way to Lou. You come into a territory facing the Local Hero Face and of course you're going to work heel. You might try to get away with Face vs Face for a while, but the Local Fans want to root for the Local Hero to beat The Champ. From a match layout standpoint, it just made sense to play off that. Watch the Lou vs Verne. Lou is the heel, quite clearly, and it's right out there in the open. It's perhaps closer to the "Rough" that Kawada & Taue might use against Misawa & Kobashi rather than the bumping stooging cheating heel that Flair is... except that Lou bumped, stooged and cheated (i.e. broke the rules). With perhaps the exception of Hutton, every long term NWA Champ up to Flair worked heel when it was needed. Brisco was a terrific heel when it was needed: watch the match with Jumbo for the UN Title. He's wonderful because you expect a clean Sporting Match, and as the Local Hero gets the better of Jack more and more, he starts to lose it. Terrific shit without him having to go all Monster Heel. So guys like Steamer and Martel and Rich, cross them off. Tommy wasn't going heel in 1981. Steamer never went heel in his prime. I don't think Martel really went heel until the WWF, though he was able to get across "frustrated" in his 7/84 match with Jumbo... but the frustration only led to it feeling more like the intensity got jacked up rather than Martel resorting to being a cheating heeling dog. There's no indication that they could have done that in 1981. Again, watch Lou vs Verne. There's your norm getting invented. It's also what was needed out of a champ. What makes him so different from Harley? Seems like the closest guy around to Harley if they wanted like for like (which you seem to be assuming). Dick feels more like a brawler. Harley had Muvs~! John

Tommy Rich Ricky Steamboat Rick Martel Faces. They never would get the pick as a long term (i.e. 1+ year) NWA champ in 1981. Dory Funk Jr Terry Funk Jack Brisco Brisco wouldn't want it. Dory was way past it. Hard to see them going backwards to Terry after 4+ years. Buddy Rose Would never happen. Dick Murdoch Didn't seem to be where the NWA was at in 1981. That's 12+ years removed from Kiniski. Bruiser Brody Would never happen. Greg Valentine Viable option. Don't think he would be #1 behind Flair, and might not be #2... but certainly could work NWA Heel Champ. Not sure if he would want the touring. Ken Patera Viable option. Not sure if he was fully thought of at that level by the entire NWA, or enough to get a vote... or how he fit into how enough promoters wanted to see the visiting champ. But certainly viable. Ted DiBiase Likely the #1 option after Flair, at least as we've been told historically. I would be interested in how much he worked heel prior to Oct 1981. John

I recall busting jokes (with whoever I was watching it with) through most of the Kawada-Muta TC title change about how shitty Mutoh was. That was after Dave had pimped it, and specifically Mutoh, as a psychological masterpiece or some such nonsense. John

Maybe Dave does such a poor bio on him that people read it as a HOF Candidate bio, and in he goes! It would be interesting spin. I doubt it would be successful, unless voters are really stupid. They weren't terribly bright on Sasaki's Dome & Big Arena shows, but it's the Dome aspect of that which people were goofy about. Taue just doesn't have that. It's a reason Jun has an major edge over Taue. I would be surprised to see it.

Push them. You and Steve should put your heads together to start getting in some of the major Trios. There are at least three that should be considered hard: Misioneros de la Muerte, Dinamitas and Brazos. I mean for fucks sake... if the Freebirds, MX and Road Warriors can get in, and the R'n'R are consistently high on the list, then Lucha trios need to get looked at.

Glue guys don't really get All Star Game mentions, or All NBA mentions. When it was Pierce, KG and Allen at the Celtics winning the Title, none of them really were a "glue guy". That's a Shane Battier level. About as good of a glue guy as there's been around in the recent era was Lamar Odom. But guys like Parker and Ginobili on San Antonio aren't glue guys: they've both made multiple All NBA teams, and both have been an All Star 2+ times. I'm not sure Taue really is a glue guy in that trio. It feels more like Fuchi was a glue guy in the Misawa & Co vs Jumbo & Co feud. Taue is above that level in terms of push, was pushed as a "star", held up his end of the bargin at times, exceeded it at others, was subpar at other times. I don't know if I'd draw a direct analogy to Andrew Bynum... there's probably a better comp. But Bynum had some nights/stretches where he looked like an MVP candidate. Had some stretches where he was a good player for a really good team. Had some stretches where he was just kind of there. Bynum's ceiling was higher in terms of raw talent... Taue worked harder at it. Again, there's likely a better comp if we thought a bit about it. Anyway... I'm not sure Hase is a comp for Taue as a draw or stature. Taue was pushed within his promotion as a bigger star. Neither of them really were draws, and attempting to paint either at draws is just fluffing the stats. As far as Taue being a better worker, while some might think that, it's a tough sell. Beyond that, Hase has the bullshit "impact in the front offices" aspect that Taue doesn't have. It's pretty much the delusion that got Hase over the top, people bought into it, so there it is. One would need to come up with Taue's own version of that bullshit: that he was Misawa's right hand man in opening NOAH, helped steal NTV, came up with idea of letting Kobashi have a long run with the title, etc, etc, bullshit etc. Then maybe he's got some bullshit that people will buy like they did with Hase. Here's the problem with trying to work that and how the voters will likely look at it: Jun vs Taue - Jun main evented Dome Shows that Drew - Taue didn't - Jun went to New Japan and drew - Taue didn't - Jun held World Titles for long runs - Taue did That's even if you get voters to buy into the concept that Taue was a better worker for his career and/or at his peak than Jun... which I think is going to be hard to get 60% of the voters to come around to. Sasaki vs Taue - Kensuke main evented Dome Shows that Drew - Taue didn't - Kensuke went to NOAH and drew - Taue didn't go to NJPW and draw - Kensuke held World Titles for long runs - Taue did One can make the Work argument, but as folks have talked about in the thread, the standard (as seen by voters) for a Worker-centric Candidate to get in the HOF is really, really, really high. 60% of the voters don't think Taue was as good as Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi... who of course have more to their candidacy than work. They don't think Taue is a better worker than Liger. They don't think he was a better worker than Benoit or Eddy. They don't think he's a better worker than Hokuto or Toyota, assuming they got in for just work. I'm drawing a blank at a single Worker-only / Worker-centric candidate that 60% of the "Japanese Voters" would think Taue is better than. The Hase vs Taue thing is above: voters thought he was a terrific worker, likely most of them thought he was better than Taue. They also bought into the out-of-the-ring bullshit. Taue really doesn't look to them like a better candidate than those guys. I don't think any of them warrant being in, so as I keep saying... the argument of Them vs Taue isn't compelling to me. Advocating weak candidates to me is an utter waste of time. I tend to think the same thing on Old Timers picks, which is a reason I've never advocated Orville Brown. I don't put any effort into shooting him down, and luckily Dave never asked me during the whole Brown Debate what I thought. But if someone like Steve asked me whether he should be in, my comment was along the lines of not being enthused about him. I mean, maybe if someone had crafted the argument that he was the Jerry Lawler of the 40s, I might find it interesting to look at it on that level and think about it more. But that wasn't an argument being put forward: it was that he was a pretty major guy... and that doesn't really strike me as compelling at all. Please pimp some major guys to me. John

It was more a Taue-Akiyama and Kosh-Hase parallel, since you were making the Taue-Akiyama point. Kosh has positives that Hase doesn't, though I doubt the majority of voters see it. Taue has positives that Jun doesn't, though I doubt the majority of voters would agree with that at all. On the flip side, Jun has things Taue doesn't have, and I'm willing to bet even Taue supporters would agree on that. Hase has some positives that Kosh doesn't, which we'd agree on. Whether the positives that any of them have make for a HOF worthy candidate... I don't think so. And just as most voters would laugh off at Kosh as a candidate (which isn't unwarranted), they also tend to laugh off at Taue as a candidate... which again isn't unwarranted. The greater problem is that they didn't laugh off the candidacy of Hase, and that they aren't not laughing off the one of Jun. I've considered that ever since he was one of the various "Best Worker In The World At This Minute" guys that have popped up in the past decade. Whether he sticks in people's mind, or fades like Kanemoto... who knows. But if Kenta gets in, I wouldn't be terribly surprised. There is a None of the Above option: vote for someone who isn't going to get in. Every region has a low risk candidate.

No, it's that Ric's World revolves around Ric and fuck everyone else.

That's an awesome article. John

Not really anymore than Hase getting in and Koshinaka not. In the end, if people don't think Kosh is a HOFer, it doesn't matter and people don't care. Same with Taue. I'm not advocating Kosh, but then again I'm not advocating Taue, Hase, Sasaki, Jun and Suzuki. This all is mining the chum of puroresu candidates.

I think Taue is a weak candidate. I'm thankful on some level that he existed to team with Jumbo and Kawada, and eventually have a run as a really terrific worker. But he's a weak candidate. I don't see him as a comp for Foley as he's pretty much a zero for impact and influence, where as much as I don't like it, Foley was one of the key guys in bringing garbage to the US and/or elevating garbage in the US. Foley.. Sabu... Mick was doing it earlier, and on bigger stages. I don't find the "If Akiyama gets in, then..." line of voting terribly compelling. If we did that, then the baseline are Hase or Dragon. I've never let the goofiness of voting in Hase make me draw up a list of everyone who was better than and/or more important than Hase and rally towards their candidacies. :/ John

1990s Japan is probably overrepresented. It feels less like "these are the best wrestlers of all time" and more like "this is the style of wrestling I personally enjoy." What's odd is that for all the Hall of Famers of that era, the only native Japanese from about pre-1975 are Inoki, Baba, Rikidozan and maybe Kintaro Ohki (counting the Koreans). We could stand to have more research on guys like Masahiko Kimura, Harold Sakata, Hiro Matsuda, Kinji Shibuya, etc. In Japan, those guys collectively meant very little. Kimura meant something until the Rikidozan match, and that was it for him as a pro wrestler of any note. Matsuda never was big in Japan... he wasn't even Taue level of being a star. Okay... he wasn't even Koshinaka level of being a star in Japan. As far as other "stars" who aren't in... Toyonobori isn't a HOFer. Got replaced on top by Baba, left/got fired, bombed with Tokyo Pro, and then wasn't pushed as the top guy in IWE and retired before the age of 40. I don't care for Sakaguchi as a candidate. There really isn't a missing candidate from that era.

Taue is unlikely to get in. Dave's not behind him, and the view that he's the lesser of the Big 4 is pretty much set in stone with the voters. While that view is also there for Sasaki, this is a problem for Taue relative to Sasaki: Sasaki: 7 IWGP+TC+GHC reigns for 1070 days Taue: 2 TC+GHC reigns for 139 days Sasaki has the "honors", and one can portray his Domes/Big Halls "headlines" in a way that make him look very good. Taue... it's really tough. You're left trying to make the argument on Work, and it's always going to be a tough sell. John

Is Sasaki really a worse HOF candidate than Chono? Yeah.

Consistency is the issue. When a wrestler tells him something that Dave things is totally full of shit, Dave will laugh it off. I've told the story of Funk putting over Tanaka plenty of times over the years. When it lines up with Dave's thinking, it's more juice for the point. If it's something Dave hasn't considered much yet, then it can sway him. I think vastly more so in the past 10 years than in the 20 before that. John

05/08/1961 Taue 06/18/1962 Misawa (HOF) 12/23/1962 Mutoh (HOF) 09/17/1963 Chono (HOF) 12/08/1963 Kawada (HOF) 07/03/1965 Hashimoto (HOF) 08/04/1966 Sasaki (HOF) 03/27/1967 Kobashi (HOF) Of the top 8 heavyweights of the two companies of that generation, 7 are in. Add in Liger and Hase, one was a jr and the other is a strange combo of a HOF candidacy, though he was a heavy for most of his NJPW career. Takada was of the same generation, but left to make a HOF career in UWF and UWFi. Sakuraba. Jun will likely get in, and he's 2 years younger than Kobashi. Funaki, Suzuki, Tamura. At some point, someone will make the case for Nagata for his long reign, and someone will likely remember he thought he was a terrific worker at his peak. If Suzuki can get in, then Takayama will get in since it's likely there's more evidence that he drew... and he did have the famous fight with Frye, etc. Tenzan? Kojima? I don't think the Japanese wrestlers of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s are over represented: we've still be successful in beating off the challenge of Sakaguchi. But the 90s... yeah. Some of it is fine. What Maeda, Onita and Takada did as far as drawing really big and for a number of years with what were essentially Indy promotions is pretty impressive and to me significant. If ECW drew what Onita did, TNA what Maeda drew, and ROH what Takada drew, then I'd think we would see some HOF careers candidates get in for what they did in drawing those numbers. Some of it, like Hase, Sasaki, Funaki... yeah... not who I voted for. John