Marty

I saw this on PWTBS and not on WWE.com. I smell an April Fool's joke.

I rewatched Rey-Eddie when I got home from work today. I still like the match, but it has its flaws. Eddie very subtlely does a great job working on Rey's back, but it goes completely ignored by the announcers and sometimes by Rey himself. It was little things, like any whip into the turnbuckles, or the sweet powerbomb-pin combo by Eddie. In fact, at the climax of the match, it looked like Eddie was going to finish things off, first with a top-rope back suplex and failing that, a Razor's Edge from the top rope once Rey blocked the suplex attempt. Of course, Rey countered it into a hurricanrana and looked like he held on for dear life for the winning pinfall, telling me in my mind that he knew Eddie had a killer mind at that point of the match. He knew he had to make that pinfall to *survive*, which made it a great, great finish. Yes, great match, but Rey during it sometimes comes back too quickly for my tastes. People say RVD and HBK do that an awful lot, but Rey has his faults at times too with that category.

Now you got me feeling bad, Loss. I had no idea you've never seen the HH97 match. I see what you mean now by the point you made. Anyways... * Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - 3/30/2003 (WrestleMania XIX): I have similar feelings as Loss does, although I'm not as hard on Shawn's style being the focus of that, due to the storyline. I consider it a message from Jericho during the match that, "Anything you can do, I can do better". My big problem with the focus on Shawn's style is that caters more towards Shawn's style from 1996 to the present, which, at its earliest, is a time when Jericho was already making a name for himself and, in spite of any admiration he has for Shawn even then, it wouldn't make as much sense as, say, if he did more spots similar to Shawn's Rocker era. Anyways, aside from that, and the finish, I thought the match was great, and as far as Shawn comeback matches go, this blows away the HHH match from the previous August, as there was far more focus here. I'm not sure if Shawn's had a better match since then, as I consider his 12/29/03 match with HHH to be almost the same match they've always had, minus Shawn's needless hardcore spots in the SSlam 02 match. Match of the night here. * Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - 8/29/1994 (SummerSlam 94): Haven't seen this match in a while, but I like it more than other WWF cage matches. Probably a little too long though, although thank God for that, because we might've had a longer Taker-Faker match. My favourite spot of the match was when Bret and Owen kept jumping for the exit, one after the other, after stopping the other from doing so. Other than that, I probably need to rewatch this for a more fair judgment. * Rey Mysterio, Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero - 10/26/1997 (Halloween Havoc 97): Very, very fun match, one of the best cruiserweight matches WCW had. Eddy is in his prime here as an evil, dickhead, rudo heel, always doing whatever he pleases for the sake of winning. Guerrero does a magnificent job controlling the action, but Rey isn't the type who needs his hand held. I loved it when Guerrero, with the mask vs. title stip on the line, says, "Fuck it" and starts tearing at Rey's mask. Rey's clean triumphant win is very satisfying, and says a lot about the feud itself. Another match I gotta rewatch soon. I actually try avoiding watching this match, just to keep the newness of it alive. It's one of those matches, in my book. * The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar - 8/25/2002 (SummerSlam 2002): This isn't a *great* match by any means, as there's far too much outside stuff, either involving Heyman or not, although Heyman's comeuppance is satisfying for a couple of reasons: the first being the crowd being happy with it, and the second being that Lesnar can go out and win this on his own. Rock also lacks a lot of longterm selling here, particularly the ribs, IIRC. This match is, of course, similar to Rock-Hogan, in that, in spite of going in as a face, Rock's got the crowd to go up against as well, since they're on Lesnar's side. However, unlike the Hogan match, Rock isn't nearly as successful, for he knows Hogan, but doesn't know Lesnar. I've always thought that in itself was a good enough reason to really push new stars, as the established stars are known, but the newcomers aren't, so how do you prepare for them? Rock realizes this in many cases, as Lesnar is able to stop the People's Elbow from even happening, and shows a counter to the Rock Bottom into the F5 that Rock did not see coming. Watching this match makes the Unforgiven 2002 match between Brock and Taker that much more baffling, because they really had a new star in the making with Lesnar, yet Taker's another animal and Lesnar had to work harder to get through him. This was a fun match, even if it wasn't a great one. * Cactus Jack vs. Triple H - 1/23/2000 (Royal Rumble 2000): I think this is one of those matches that hasn't aged well over time. Far too much outside brawling, even with the chaotic nature of the match. Funny how Rock's interference woke everyone up quite a bit, rather than drag the match down. The two Foley matches should've been decisive finishes to the feud, leading to a Rock-HHH showdown at Mania, but instead we had a very mediocre fourway to close out the HHH-Foley war.

I discussed this briefly with Loss, who thought it was a good idea. Basically, like the Wrestler version, list a bunch of matches that come to mind, leading to thoughts and/or discussion about them. Loss worried that there might not be enough matches that everyone has seen, but the advantage of that is hopefully getting people curious enough to want to see them. Of course, star ratings are optional, Scott Keith-style reviews are forbidden (ha!). I'll start with some well-known ones so we can get the ball rolling relatively easily: * Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho - 3/30/2003 (WrestleMania XIX) * Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart - 8/29/1994 (SummerSlam 94) * Rey Mysterio, Jr. vs. Eddy Guerrero - 10/26/1997 (Halloween Havoc 97) * The Rock vs. Brock Lesnar - 8/25/2002 (SummerSlam 2002) * Cactus Jack vs. Triple H - 1/23/2000 (Royal Rumble 2000)

You have to elaborate on this one! Tim means it in the worst kind of way.

Some corrections/verifications: - The RAW show where RVD/Jericho happened on August 4, 2003. Show was in Vancouver, not Ottawa. I would've hated to be at that show, that's for sure (I'm located in Ottawa). I highly doubt Ottawa's going to get a TV taping for quite a long time. One, the WWE hasn't thought of one since we only drew 3,000 at a house show in July 2002, headlined by Kurt Angle vs. Edge, that had no-shows by Rock, HHH, Hogan, and Jericho. I missed a May 2003 house show because I was moving the weekend it happened, but it was the one headlined by HHH and Nash that drew the infamous HORRID reviews. I'm glad I missed it. I caught a show in November that year that had a six man tag (Taker/Benoit/Angle vs. Show/Lesnar/Train, with Lesnar running away from Taker the WHOLE time). Only 1500 people went to that, and hated the show. There was another show last November, but I passed. There's also the problem that Ottawa's stuck between Toronto and Montreal, two favourable WWE markets, so there's the logic that Ottawa people who want to go to shows will just make the trip to either place.

What exactly did Jericho do when he "took them under his wing"? Showed them the "WWE style"? Taught them the proper backstage etiquette, like how to shake Droz's hand? Anything notable? Nice post covering Austin's descent, by the way.

I remember back in the day when he said how he felt Montreal was a work. Gotta be interesting to see what he says now.

I'm trying to seriously conjure up some thoughts on these guys, but HTQ keeps having me laughing over the Kevin Nash comments, and I mean that in a good way. Well said, man!

"I'm gonna stick your head so far up your ass your gonna have to cut holes in your nipples to see!" -- The Rock "Take her g-string, pull it up over her head and poke her in the eyes." -- Test to Trish before her match against Lita "Hardy Boys, Boyz with a Z. Is that Z supposed to scare us or something?" --Christian "You want ME in the ring? Now I know you've been drinking" -- Kurt Angle to Essa Rios "Hey, I drank milk that was a DAY past the expiration date. Now THAT is Extreme!" - Kurt Angle Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley: "I always say, 'Once is not enough'." Rob Van Dam: "Yeah, I heard that about you." "If your Olympic Hero were to use the Worm in the 1996 olympic games, it would be so embarassing to all the other atheletes - and our country, mind you- that the USA would have finished behind Guam." -- Kurt Angle "I became the first ever Euro-continental champion in WWF history. Well, besides D-Lo Brown, but he doesn't count." -- Kurt Angle "Welcome to Anaheim, California, my fellow broken-down, washed-up wrestler." --Mick Foley to Shawn Michaels "If I were someone named Mr. Ass, I'd be really worried about doing time." -- Vince McMahon talking about DX going to jail "Very, very good Pavlov, all your dogs have barked when you rang the bell. Your test was successful." -- Triple H to Rock after he said one of his catchphrases which caused a huge pop. (Damn! Hunter CAN be funny when he wants to be.)

"Greetings to all of our fans in Memphis! As we all know, there are two types of Elvis' - there was fat Elvis, and really fat Elvis! But the sad thing is - none of us will ever get the chance to find how fat Elvis really would have been - because, he ended up like this town -- Dead!!!!" -- Christian. "Now, speaking of sore-losers, how fitting is it that we are in the capital city of sore-losers, Buffalo, New York! Now, I'm talking, Superbowls, Stanley Cup Finals, O.J.! It 'so' doesn't get more depressing than right here." -- Christian. "You never really know a woman till you meet her in court." -- Jerry Lawler "Don't you ever, and the Rock means EVER, come at the Rock and ask him a question like that again, or else the Rock will knock your teeth so far down your throat, you'll stick a toothbrush up your *ss to brush 'em!" -- The Rock "...On top of all that, look at this guy? I mean he's a idiot, he's 7 feet of pure idiot. You put his brain in a parakeet... zing! It'll fly backwards." -- The Rock "It doesn't make you bad losing to Rob Van Dam... it just makes you like everybody else." -- Rob Van Dam

On the WrestleMania XX DVD set, they have an extra which was the documentary "The Making Of WrestleMania", which covered WrestleMania XIX. They focused a lot on Rock/Austin, and Rock confirmed what happened after the match. He pretty much flat-out told Steve how he loved working with him his whole career, he'll miss it, and he thanked him for a tremendous match. I really like that match too, actually a bit more than I like Lesnar/Angle, but not nearly as much as HBK/Jericho. There've been better performances between the two, and it was easy to see that Austin was to the point of needing someone to hold his hand, rather than the other way around, but much like Flair at WrestleWar '89, this was probably The Rock's finest hour. Not just for winning and beating a longtime adversary, but the great thing was the Rock's heel run. It definitely brought an edge back to his character and he really got to showcase that during the match with all those mannerisms (wearing the Stone Cold vest, pointing to his head, etc.). I really liked the last sequence, only because at the third Rock Bottom, Rock gave a grimacing look as if to say, "There's no stopping me now!" Obviously, their WM X-7 match beats this easily, but this match, thanks to Rock, had a number of little things that makes it a great closing to an era.

Bret Hart: One of my all-time favourites. What's happened to both his personal and professional life is a tragedy. Shane Douglas: The pure definition of the term "overrated". Never saw what a lot of others saw in him. Toshiaki Kawada: Great, great worker. I need to see more of his stuff. Demolition: Not the greatest workers, but could hide their weaknesses as a tag team. I never got that much NWA in the past, so back then, I had no idea that they were a take-off of some other original team. Diamond Dallas Page: Preplans his matches, as everyone knows, but a solid worker, and pretty entertaining. Al Snow: Underrated guy who never got his due. His stories related to his 1996-97 WWF run are both sad and funny at the same time. Scott Hall: Eh, average worker at best, who gets far too many props because of two ladder matches. His mic work is a guilty pleasure of mine. Might have been bigger than what he turned out to be had it not been for demons. Yuji Nagata: Great, great worker from what I've seen. And from what I've heard, what Inoki is doing with the poor guy is insane. Psychosis: He's kind of like Eddy Guerrero to Rey Mysterio's Chris Benoit. Even though Benoit and Eddy haven't had the same rivalry as Mysterio and Psychosis. And Mysterio and Psychosis have never been on-screen friends. Still, Psychosis is fun to watch and is definitely a lucha libre ambassador. Steve Austin: Another one of my all-time faves, and I have to agree with HTQ: He would've been even bigger and better had it not been for the neck injury, due to being a more long-term success.

I'll post my thoughts eventually, but I felt we could use another list of these. Hope I didn't repeat anyone (from previous lists): Bret Hart Shane Douglas Toshiaki Kawada Demolition Diamond Dallas Page Al Snow Scott Hall Yuji Nagata Psychosis Steve Austin

It's a guilty pleasure of mine watching Heenan get slaughtered by the Warrior. You raise a good point about the '90 series though. Actually, that year's PPV (sans Gooker) was a very interesting concept.

Ditto, and if the WWE does it right (something we always say), the Warrior 2-disc DVD should be a lot of fun. I'd avoid the latter part of his career when producing it (except for the HHH squash ), but the early part of his career is fun. There's the Hogan WM match, the SNME Hogan/Warrior vs. Hennig/Poffo match that helped build to WM, the Rude matches, the Honky squash, the two Savage matches, and just for fun, I'd throw in the Survivor Series '89 match. If Vince has access to UWF stuff, there may be a Bladerunners tag in there worth throwing on.

I fell asleep before and during the main event, but I caught the replay early in the morning before going to work today. Is it just me, or should the Raw title match at WM be booked to be roughly a 3-minute squash in favour of Batista? This reminds me soooo much of the build-up to Starrcade 97, but knowing WWE, they'll make the same booking mistake.

Whoops, missed that.

Did Meltz not bother with a snowflake rating for UT/HBK at the time?

I think that's true. I believe Austin well into his paranoia stage at the time (the real-life version) that eventually led to his walk-out from the company the following June.

It was more than just the Foley, Owen & Co. I know the LOD skipped RAW and so did some midcarders who are friends with Bret (Faarooq, Savio Vega, etc.). I heard something from somewhere, however, about Vince bringing up to Undertaker what was going to happen anyway. If Loss and HTQ know anything about this, I'd appreciate confirmation.

Fact or Fiction: Undertaker knew about the Montreal screwjob before it happened. (This is opposed to, of course, the theory that the events caught him completely by surprised, and that he was legitimately pissed at Vince afterwards for his actions.)

Wow. That's the first time I've someone make that point, and it's SO true. Wasn't always true either. IIRC, Vince was initially pissed that HHH and Stephanie were seeing each other and in spite of him forbidding, they did so anyway (God, they should turn this into a WWE Films production!). I guess he doesn't mind now, considering how Hunter has turned himself into, in Vince's mind, the son he never had.

Silly Edge! Doesn't he realize the only person in the company who's allowed to cheat on their spouse/mate with someone else in the company is HHH? In all seriousness, Edge and Lita could be fucked career-wise. From what I hear, in spite of problems with the front office for being critical, Matt Hardy's very well liked by the rest of the workers, and both Edge and Lita could receive a major amount of heat for this sort of thing. Personally, I'd love to see Trish shoot another slut remark at Lita on Raw this Monday, even if it makes no sense storyline-wise since Lita's not even on TV right now.

Since you brought up the Brother Love Show, I wanted to bring up the first time I ever saw it on TV. I never saw the first episode of it (with Bobby Heenan) but I did see the Ted Dibiase one. When I first saw it upon turning Superstars on, it opened, and since I didn't see the opening credits, I immediately thought the network cancelled wrestling for some religious zealot's show. Since I was 10 at the time, I ran around the house in a panicky fit, until I returned to the TV and saw Dibiase and Virgil on screen. I was like, wow. I miss the days of being suspended in disbelief like that.