Dylan Waco

One more positive - Patera got 15% and stayed on the ballot. The fact that he got 53 votes is actually shocking to me and means that either A. my work has penetrated out of the bubble some or B. he got a lot of votes from wrestlers.

Positives of this years class Two Luchadores got in, which opens up that ballot for more guys down the road. I have no major problem with any of the people who got in (Tanahashi was inevitable), and the one landslide pick was a guy who absolutely deserved to be in already. Negatives Atlantis going in before some of the other Luchadores on the ballot is nuts. I think the historians voting for Tanahashi is telling because that is a group of people who historically would not have voted for someone with his drawing record. Whatever you think of Tanahashi's case I think a precedent has been set and established for this generation. At this point anyone who argues against Mistico or Bryan but voted for Tanahashi should not be taken seriously at all. Colon not going in is shit and I think the category he is in is actually hurting him at this point.

At what point though do you start attributing massive success on iPPV to Tanahashi? If him not being able to sell out Sumo is seen a detrement, doesn't being the top guy in a promotion doing fantastic numbers on iPPV have to count positively? It matters. The problem is it's too early to tell how much

Name the guys who you think got in on work alone, because I think there is a disconnect there. The problem with Tanahashi as a draw is that he is being framed by some as the reason for the NJPW turn around and the NJPW turn around is being framed by some as a unreal achievement. On the first point it's debatable because the company was stumbling for years with him on top. On the second point we are way to early in the process to tell how much they have really turned things around. The Sumo stat is worth mentioning because A. it gives you an indication of how overhyped this vaunted turnaround has been and B. I'm not sure if we could name anyone else who has been touted as an ace of a hugely successful promotion (and Tanahashi absolutely has in some quarters), who never sold out what is basically the promotions "go to" arena.

I would note that our very own Bix is cited as a source in this important work

I have a rep of loathing Tanahashi and his matches and the series with Okada in general. But if you actually look back at what I wrote about the matches - especially the matches this year - the general tone of the reviews was "this is a style I don't really care for, the matches go on too long, but they do some good stuff and/or have some good ideas." I don't think I said any of the four matches from this year were bad. I was more down on the 1/4 match because the hyperbole around the whole show was unreal, but I was also pretty kind to the G1 match.

I'm twenty pages in. I have more important things to read, but it is possible I will have consumed enough of this to give tips to a certain interviewer if he needs them. Also it is possible I will give a very basic "WTF" review at the end of this process

I don't have an interest in this. Well let me amend that. I would have an interest in something like this if it were directly related to projects that have sprung up on this board, but a broad big picture HoF? Nah.

Fuck it, my net is out as mentioned before, but if Joe wants to come on me and Dave's show for a civil discussion about this I am 100 percent up for it, and I'm sure I can con Dave into it. It may take a few days, but I'd love to have him on

That is indeed my opinion, and that is indeed subjective. What is NOT subjective, is the idea that Rose (who I am only using as the example because that was one of the the examples presented here by KrisZ and it was backed up by others) would be a "first ballot" guy if judged on workrate alone. That statement is just flat out false. Because there have been people who have gotten in largely on workrate alone, and Rose not only did not make it when he was on the ballot, but if fact garnered such little support that he was booted from the ballot altogether. We'll know later today, but my assertion is that the voters at large are more open to Tanahashi's work in terms of being HOF caliber than somebody like Rose. That is not opinion. That is fact. Can't be argued. Because Rose had his shot, and didn't come close. In the eyes of the voters, he is not some legendary worker. Nothing subjective about that. He just isn't. The results speak for themselves. And Tanahashi is likely either getting in, or coming close. This despite not having any sort of slam dunk drawing record in the eyes of most, and generally being considered a workrate candidate. I have a nightmare of an internet situation going on right now (road workers destroyed the infrastructure for the net that fuels my home) so I can't respond in anything approaching the detail I want to some of this. But I would like to note real quickly that I think Tanahashi as a work candidate that appeals more to WON voters is totally unknowable, but also something that we will probably have a skewed perspective of whether he gets in or not. Over at Classics Yohe talked him up based on a couple of matches and then said he would have voted him below the absolute first tier of Japanese HoF guys (for his top 100 project, not HoF) because he's obviously as important to this era or some such thing. This is Yohe, a guy who doesn't closely follow modern Japan and is getting most of his context directly from Dave (which he admits). Yohe who is also a huge advocate of drawing power being the key metric in HoF debates and he's talking up a guy as being the equal or superior as a candidate to guys like Choshu and Maeda - and yet Tanahashi has NEVER sold out Sumo Hall for a non-G1 show. Never. That's nuts. You mentioned Akiyama earlier, I'll be honest, I'd consider Jun much more strongly than Tanahashi because I think he was a better worker, but also because his drawing record - flawed as it has been at times and terrible as it may be in 2013 alone - is stronger as a body than Tanahashi's. Anyhow the point is that it's pretty obvious that Yohe might end up voting for a guy like Tanahashi in large part because of how his stardom has been portrayed in Japan by Dave, with the work as a nice addendum, not the other way around. And that's why the criticism of Tanahashi as a drawing card is relevant. He is a star. He is a draw of some note. He is not an HoF level draw by any metric that is sensible. Also my big problem is with the notion that Tanahashi is a no brainer. Maybe this is just a linguistic issue, but to me there is exactly one no brainer from this era - John Cena. And even with him, he's not a no brainer in the way Hulk Hogan or Lou Thesz or Jim Londos were. To me a no brainer is someone who strongly checks off the categories in such a way where you can't even have an argument about him that doesn't melt into something where you are entirely playing devil's advocate. There are a lot of guys in the first class who I wouldn't even consider no brainers.

Rose didn't get in because of where he worked and the fact that the footage of his best years was not widely available until recently. Actually that's not why he didn't get in - that's why he fell off the ballot without a thought. There's a good chance he would have never gotten in. In fact I would almost guarantee that John didn't and wouldn't vote for him, but I know John at minimum sees Rose as a very good worker. In any case the issue with Rose was where he worked, more than it was how he worked. How do I know this? Because a dozen people that didn't vote for him and thought he was tremendous told me so. I basically agree with this, but I think there is a tendency to try and find other arguments for him on the margins, because despite repeated talk about the alleged percentages of fans that think Tanahashi is a Misawa/Flair/Kobashi level worker, at the end of the day, the people arguing Tanahashi on work know this isn't the old days. Twenty years ago - hell for the most part ten years ago - the WON rubber stamp on a worker was pretty much gold. There weren't pockets of dissidence anywhere near the size and organization of this board or other boards. If Dave said "this guy was great" you took his word for it, and ordered the tapes. A lot of the time you watched the tapes and agreed. Sometimes you watched the tapes and disagreed, but even then you very rarely went to the wall over it unless you were someone like me or John who just like to argue. I remember arguing that Fujinami v. DK from 1980 was vastly better than any of the DK v. TM matches close to fifteen years ago and it was seen as completely heretical by a lot of people, the sort of thing only a lunatic who didn't "understand" wrestling would think. There was a small pocket where you could make those arguments and not get trolled to death, but it was a small, small, place. Nothing near the size of PWO or DVDVR (which existed then, but outside of the reviews themself, was nowhere near as "off the reservation" as it would become) or any other place you want to point to. Now you can watch the matches in real time, or on short delay, and post your thoughts online and say "eh I think Dave is crazy wrong here" or "fucking Dylan Waco is clueless about what makes New Japan" great if you prefer. Whatever the case, the consensus is nowhere near as hard as it used to be (which again is why I would NEVER vote for work alone candidates if I had a ballot).

Completely agree with this. Said above: there was a chance to fix this after Angle, it was a known problem since the original reasoning was moot at that point (Joshi retirements at 25 years of age), and it wouldn't have impacted anyone on the ballot yet... and frankly would have allowed focus on clearing some people off the ballot. To me the strong comparison here is Tanahashi and Mistico. Mistico was a rare Luchadore who was covered fairly well and in better than average detail by Dave. He was treated as a major star and he was one. Dave was higher on his matches than me (as with Tanahashi), though not at the level of Tanahashi praise. On the other hand, there were some who touted Mistico very highly as a worker, much higher than any other Luchadore of the period in terms of the your non-hardcore Lucha fans. My understanding is that the success of Mistico was huge for CMLL and "turned things around." On top of that, he was clearly a bigger draw than Tanahashi. But Mistico was not eligible for the ballot during his prime. He was signed by WWE, which in a strange way almost is another form of HoF validation for some (the fact that the WWE saw it as a huge signing and actually promoted him the way they did at first speaks to their perception of him, which is a huge part of Dave's argument for Lesnar) and has basically fallen on his face there. Mistico will end up on the ballot and may eventually end up back in CMLL. But I cannot imagine him being touted as a no brainer, where there is no real argument against him at all. And it's largely because he wasn't eligible during his peak as a star.

I will say two positive things about him and completely leave the negative out for now just to illustrate that I am not a complete dick 1. The guy has charisma and connects with the audience in the buildings which can help the matches he's in. I'd be a liar if I said he connected to me on any level, but he is clearly over and I think in a match like the Suzuki match that was his biggest contribution. 2. In his best moments the guy will absolutely kill himself with dumb bumps, or eating big falls to get a match or another guy over. That is a good trait for a top start to have.

Would just add here that I was typing this as W2BTD was posting up his more specific thoughts on Tanahashi as a worker (which I am pleased he did), so it may seem like I'm asking him to do something he's already done.

I like Joe. Hell I like just about everyone posting in this thread. But as you can guess I have a few things to say about this stuff. One I HATE the niche fetishism argument. I mean I fucking hate it. I especially hate it because we aren't talking about my love for Bobby Bass here, we are talking about a guy like Buddy Rose who was universally loved by wrestlers and other workers (something Dave ALWAYS puts stock in in HoF talk), was universally thought of as a great wrestler during his prime (in case the old "how things age shouldn't matter" bullshit gets trotted out) and has been praised heavily by people watching his work in recent years with wildly different tastes. The sin Buddy committed was twofold. 1. His best stuff wasn't available for years so he was a guy who was argued as being a "well he was great, but we just don't have the footage to prove it." John, myself, Kris and others who have been around this scene for a million years (sadly) can attest to the fact that that was the common refrain on Buddy forever. He wasn't a guy that was "discovered." He was a guy everyone knew was great, but we all sat around whining about lack of footage making it impossible to say how great. Now we have the footage, but there are certain people who will remain nameless who tell us that watching old footage is a waste of time when trying to evaluate wrestlers. So he's stuck in a bind on both ends. 2. He dared to do most of his great stuff in Portland a "small time" promotion, out in bum fuck, that is easy to label "niche." But here is the thing about "niche" Buddy Rose and "small time" Portland - that promotion probably drew no worse than what NJPW is drawing now under Tanahashi. That's not a cheap shot at Tanahashi -it's just a fact. Have the best Tanahashi topped shows drawn more? Yes (excluding the Rose match in NY and Toronto and San Fran). Was Tanahashi drawing 3k/3500 sellouts twice a week around the horn for huge chunks of his prime? Well that's certainly debatable at most in terms of raw numbers, but he absolutely hasn't been selling everything out. In fact John undersold the befuddlement at Tanahashi as a draw earlier in the thread because here is a guy being touted for the resurrection of a company who has NEVER sold out Sumo Hall for a non-G1 show. I mean people shit all over Akiyama and Sasaki and others for falling on their faces in various ways at various points in the post Inokism/AJPW split era, but you can point to shit like Akiyama v. Sasaki doing a near sellout at Budakon. Tanahashi has last years Dome show, which I agree he deserves credit for and then....? Well the fact is the "biggest" match in the company in terms of star power was supposedly Tanahashi v. Okada and that did the same number's as Okada v. Ibushi (run by the smaller, less "hot" promotion DDT) and Okada v. fucking Kojima of all people. The more I look at it, the more I think Tanahashi as some miracle working turnaround artist is wildly overstated. It's not that he deserves no credit. It's that people are cherry picking (biggest Ippv draw of all time as this point, is a stretch for a variety of reasons, not the least is which we have no clue what that means at this point, which even Dave hinted at) and deliberately ignoring his less than great moments by evading big picture discussion. Hell if Dave and many fans of modern NJPW weren't so high on the matches, I am 100 percent positive we would have heard much more criticism about Okada v. Tanahashi's failure to sell out the big building twice this year than we did. Is that niche fetishism or something else? I also think it is a huge assumption to argue that the people likely to vote in the HoF see Tanahashi as some sort of ideal. Joe, in this thread the people who have been arguing your points the hardest are voters (Bix, Keith, clown, jdw, Kris). Will is just asking for an explanation on what you like about the guy. I can see not wanting to bother because you are in enemy territory, (though I think Nintendo Logic is completely full of shit in saying the anti-Tanahashi people never state their case) but in the sample of voters in this thread you are the minority. I actually know a fuck ton of voters at this point, and there is nothing close to a consensus with these people on Tanahashi as a worker. Is it possible there is selection bias because I'm more likely to converse with people who agree with me? I guess, but then there is you, and Alan and Musgrave and other voters who are high on Tanahashi to one degree or another who I am friendly with on some level (I just tolerate Musgrave). In the case of a lot of "insiders" who will vote, I'd imagine - actually I know - a lot of them have probably watched little to no Tanahashi and are heavily influenced by Dave's coverage of New Japan. That's not me shitting on Dave either, it's just a fact. On the more general level are the people who are anti-Tanahashi out on the far fringes of fandom? No, because most fans have no clue who the fuck he is. But even within people who watch the guy, I don't think he's near the consensus favorite that others are. I'll admit I'm an outlier on Shawn Michaels. On Tanahashi, in terms of American hardcore fans who have actually seen a decent sample of his work, I think I'm in the minority, but I have run into way too many fans even off these boards who just think the guy is "okay" or have asked me about him because they "don't get the hype," for me to think I am off in another universe. Having said all of this, none of that is specific to Rose. The more I think about it, the more I think that Dundee is actually a very viable candidate. He was also considered a great worker by people who watched the product at the time (though I admit he has probably been inflated more over the years, than Rose who had a sterling rep forever) and he was a number two in a promotion that was around a did solid business forever. Dundee is only "niche" in the sense that he's not a "national" candidate. El Dandy is an even worse one to argue because he was a national star, was in the main of many shows that did better than any show Tanahashi has been on that didn't take place on Jan 4, was considered a tremendous worker at the time and is considered even better by those watching now. Dandy is "niche" because Lucha has been covered far less than Japan in general. It will be interesting to see what happens when Mistico hits the ballot because Dave pimped and talked him up to a degree, but in his case he wasn't eligible at the height of his "incredible" run of big matches. He also decimates Tanahashi as a drawing card. Believe it or not, none of this is said to shit on, or dismiss Tanahashi as a candidate. If you think he's an all time great worker, great, but he illustrates why I would never vote anyone in on work (assuming I ever got a ballot, which posts like this probably don't help my case) as I don't think that sort of thing can ever have anything approaching the sort of consensus I'm comfortable with their needed to be to put someone in an HoF. If you disagree that's fine, but don't go with the niche argument, because that's not an argument that makes Tanahashi look all the strong given his actual, non-mythical record as a drawing card, especially in a direct comparison to allegedly "niche" guys who absolutely destroy him if you start looking at metrics like number of main events that sold out, number of shows that did over 10k, stardom during a period when a promotion was hot (Tanahashi has two, maybe three years in that record, v. a guy like Dundee who has a decade or longer). Just make the case for him. If you think people are being dismissive, or assholes, or underselling his talents then just say so, god knows I have done it with John, Will, Phil and others over the years, sometimes in ways that are far nastier than anything in this thread. I can understand not wanting to be drawn into an argument about shit, but this is a board that is all about arguing the details of opinions - it's what we do. I will say this for Tanahashi - I think he has HoF potential. If we can look back and see him as a guy who kickstarted an IPPV boom that lasted years and drastically changed the shape of wrestling in Japan it would help him. If he can finally get some sellouts in the Sumo, and NJPW is able to kickstart this seemingly crazed Dome show circuit they have been threatening in the near future, with some decent success, that would help him. If NJPW continues to trend upward, it will help him, if he's still on top. But that's a big if, because I think there are signs pointing toward Okada being the new ace. In any case he's someone I don't mind on the ballot, someone I think is going to get in this year or next year no matter what, but I can't really see any case for him that's not almost entirely built on work.

I would be fairly shocked if Murdoch made it in this year, though being in the category he is in is a help. What did Dave say that tipped the hand on Tanahashi? I think his getting in at this point is not good, but given his reputation as a worker in WON circles it's a waste arguing over it.

I am horrible about keeping up with that sort of thing. shoe? KrisZ?

You need to watch Tito v. Valentine series

Portland is the monster of 1980

I haven't done regular book reviews for the alt weeklies in a while, but I still get ARCs and review copies of books here and there. Well today I got home and there was Shoemaker's book.

Deglane has been in the works for a couple of years.

Then Fabiani is definitely the last guy Dave is talking about. For some reason I thought he went in a couple of years ago.

I thought Fabiani went in a couple years ago?

I think it was pretty obvious based on last years returns that there would be another large class this year. The Deglane bio is good stuff. I was pretty positive he was going in this year based on conversation I have had off the board and I think he is a very strong pick. What interests me now is the fact that Dave seems pretty solid in arguing that the pre-tv era is just about closed off from further inductees. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I think that there is new research being done all the time, so I wouldn't bank on the notion that there will be no more overlooked historical figures after next year. I will say that it does raise an interesting question of who this last guy will be. Yohe has been beating the drum for Orville Brown for a few years, but I think he's a decidedly weaker candidate than any of the last few "veteran committee" inductions. Someone like Hornbaker might be high on Benjamin Roller, but others (including Yohe) are unconvinced. Paul Pons is another name that recently came up, but that would seem like an odd "last inductee" from that "category" to me. On the other five I think you have a slew of reasonable candidates. Dr. Wagner Sr. is a stone cold lock - he is going in. I suspect at least one other Luchadore will go in too, but I'm tentative to speculate on who that might be. Hopefully Villano III or Caras (I lean toward thinking it will be V3). I think this it he year for Colon, and if he doesn't go in this year, I think you could make the case that the category he is in might be HURTING him. Sasaki I think is almost certainly going in this year. For the last slot I think Torres is probably the most likely guy, because he seems to have taken over as the new Hans Schmidt type of candidate who has strong historian backing. Having said that he was not on a few ballots I thought he would be on, so I'm not as certain now as I would have been a few months back. Rock N Roll's and Tanahashi I think are also likely to be the fifth inductee, though I'm inclined to think Tanahashi will end up waiting a year longer based on little things Dave has said on audio shows. Ivan Koloff and Jackie Pallo I expect to be close, but not quite, though I would rate them as the next most likely to get in. I don't think anyone from non-performers gets in. I think limiting the number of people that can be voted for in that category is a good idea, but I also think it means we will see a shutout this year and it will be much harder to get in from that category.

It wasn't presented as a hardline, he just seems to believe that period is pretty complete. I'm racking my brain on guys he could be referring to. Maybe Benjamin Roller, Paul Pons or the Yohe favorite Orville Brown? Anyhow, continued discussion of this should be in the HoF thread, so let's move it over there.