Dylan Waco

I don't know if you are or not, but I know it would be fairly easy for you to find out

Show has never been on the ballot and I suspect would be a hard sell because while Dave gives him a lot of credit for certain things, he's not a Dave favorite

I reject the argument that the dearth of modern candidates means we need to make room for people who wouldn't have made it had they been in any other era if that is what you are suggesting at the end, but I'm not sure that's what you are suggesting at the end, especially since you laid out a cliff notes case right before that. I have and will continue to listen to a case for Edge. I'm not a fan of a lot of the guys work, but I do think he was hot for at least a year or two as a heel and he was a staple of the semi-main/main universe in WWE for several years. He was even involved in some matches and feuds that I really liked a lot. But I would need more particulars to see him as viable. Here are some things that I think hurt Edge and/or questions I have about him: He sure seemed like he was hurt a lot so his longevity is not as solid as it might otherwise seem. If you compare him to someone like Lex Luger who isn't in what's the argument for him outside of work (I think Luger was a better worker myself)? Was he really hotter as his peak then Luger was at his? Does he really have longevity over Lex? Was he involved in as many memorable angles/storylines? Edge's hottest periods were when he was with Lita, Vickie and Orton. I don't remember Edge ever really being super hot on his own. That's not a disqualifer at all, but it bothers me some that I can't pinpoint a period where I thought he was really hot as a truly solo act. I think Edge's main even face run was really bad...but that's preference I admit. Mania is the WWE's biggest show of the year and I think it is pretty damning that this guy being touted as an HoFer has the Mania record he does: WM 2000 - Ladder Match for Tag Team Titles: Edge & Christian beat champs The Dudley Boyz and The Hardy Boyz to become Tag Team Champions - well pushed mid-card feud that was very over at the time. Clearly not the big match on the show as a draw, but you could argue it for the two spot maybe - but then you look who is in the main event and I'm not sure how much "credit" you can really give it as a drawing card. WM 2001 - TLC match for Tag Team Title: Edge & Christian beat champs The Dudley Boyz & The Hardy Boyz to win the title - Still a hot, well liked match for sure, third from the top, but beneath all the clear big dogs at the time (Taker, HHH, Rock, Austin) WM 2002 Edge beat Booker T - This was right around the beginning of his singles push. It's in his home area, but is really a non-factor on the show, certainly not anything that has HoF value to it. He misses 2003 and 2004 WM 2005 Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Edge beat Chris Benoit, Kane, Shelton Benjamin, Chris Jericho & Christian to get a title shot whenever he wants - The beginning of his true main event push in many ways and a good debut for the gimmick. But when you look at the match it's at best the fifth most pushed match on the show and Edge was merely one of several guys in it. WM 2006 Hardcore Match: Edge beat Mick Foley - In many ways the match where he started to get a lot of talk as a "big match" worker. But it was the third most pushed match on the show, well below the main event and below Rey's chase for the title as well. WM 2007 Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Ken Kennedy beat Edge, C.M. Punk, King Booker, Jeff Hardy, Finlay, Matt Hardy, and Randy Orton - Back in MITB with guys who don't have main event feuds but are considered stars. He would eventually take this from Kennedy in an angle, but he lost here and was in no way a major part of the show, let alone in a main or semi-main position. WM 2008 World Heavyweight Championship: The Undertaker beat Edge to win the title - His biggest Mania match and it even went on last. But here is the thing - does anyone really believe that was the Main Event of the show? I'm willing to grant it for the sake of argument but Michaels/Flair, Show/Mayweather and the Triple Threat were all pushed AT LEAST as much on tv. This was a step up for Taker from the previous year in terms of how his match was presented, but not even in the universe of what would come after. It's not as extreme as calling Jericho/HHH then main over Rock/Hogan, but it seems a stretch to say it was clearly the biggest match on the show. WM 2009 World Heavyweight Championship: John Cena beat Champion Edge and The Big Show to win the title - Second from the top behind HHH v. Orton, which got the go home RAW push. Michaels v. Taker is there to. This is a good spot for Edge, but not something that is overwhelming. WM 2010 World Heavyweight Championship: Champion Chris Jericho beat Edge - Pretty weak title match. In terms of build the promotion was greater for at least three matches, arguably four if you count Rey v. Punk. In any case not a good showing for an HoF. WM 2011 - World Heavyweight Championship: Champion Edge beat Alberto Del Rio - Opener and his last match. I was there live and the big take home from this is that Del Rio should have won. Several matches on the show were clearly pushed harder. I'll let others speak to that more, but that is not the sort of record I would expect out of an HoFer. I lived through the whole Edge era and never saw him as a guy who was an HoF level guy. That's not an immediate "no" but with other guys from the modern era who I like as little or less then Edge (Tanahashi and Mistico being the most obvious examples) they feel like guys who were era or promotion defining on some level, they are guys where I can point to strong business swings, they are guys who stand out as people who I think could be representative of an era in an HoF. I don't see that in Edge. The arguments for him I think are often pegged to make him look stronger then he is. To an extent we all do this, but the Edge candidacy reminds me a lot of the Michaels candidacy in that it's a lot more speculation and/or assumptions then I would like (again we all do this to an extent, but it seems like it gets tossed out a ton with Edge). For example, in the last week I've seen people say he deserves a ton of credit for getting over the ladder match, that Edge/Christian were one of the most influential tag teams in wrestling history, that was in a Mania "main event" a half dozen times, and that SD became a Raw deleted scenes show after he left and collapsed into the sewer. Those range from totally false (Mania claim) to exceptionally generous (ladder match claim) to extremely speculative (E/C claim) to contextually challenged (SD claim...not Taker and Rey not being around was a big facet in the brand losing a lot of it's identity too). I'm not saying those arguments can't be advanced or pointed to as part of the puzzle but I'd rather they be fleshed out then just asserted and I also don't think they can form the foundation of an HoF argument.

I think it means very little unless we can point to Ivan in that era drawing well, which we can do in a sense with Patera in the early stages of the boom.

Not sure that there is a "key" for either Patera or Ivan, though I think both smoke Edge and Batista as candidates, so we are operating from different universes. If by "key" you mean a big run or moment to point to I'd look at Patera's run in 1980 and then shop it around next to the run of other heels during that era and tell me what you find. Stats aren't going to tell the full story (they rarely do in my view), but there aren't that many guys who had money drawing feuds with Pedro, Backlund and Bruno in the same year, while also getting multiple main events (4) and an NWA title shot in St. Louis. And then there is the whole Missouri/I-C title deal.

Moved this here. Horowitz is worth talking about because he's a weird case of a guy who was a jobber a bunch of different places, had a gimmick based around the fact that he was a jobber a bunch of different places and was actually really good. I can't think of anyone quite like him though there were definitely carry "bottom of the barrel" guys that worked multiple spots. The Owen match in question is really, really good. I don't have the match list in front of me, but the Horowitz comp I've got (not as in "I made" as in "I purchased from someone else) is a lot of fun. Also Horowitz v. Mike Jackson from Florida, is better than that Hector match and even though it probably doesn't even go six minutes, I'd consider arguing it's case on an 80's Set depending on how the Misc Territories get bracketed.

I love the Can Ams, think the Footloose matches are pretty much the pinnacle of explosive, high energy tag matches, and like both guys a lot in other settings (Kroffat was a real good tag worker in general), but that ECW run was as disappointing a run as there has ever been. I love the Furnas v. Van Dam match which was built around Rob taking psychotic bumps for Furnas crazy strength/power spots, but I thought being in the States badly exposed them as a team that lacked the character intangibles you need to be in the discussion for best team of all time. Speaking for myself, I loathed the matches against RVD/Sabu, though the Mikey and Spike matches were very good (though honestly I thought they were outworked by the little guys in those matches). But I was expecting so much more from them. Having said that they are probably just one rung down from the teams I would consider in a discussion for best of all time, which still comfortably locks them in as a great team.

Love that match. Fujinami was such a tremendous junior, easily the best of that era (and in the late 70's as well). I consider him a top ten all time guy at this point.

Bronco v. Savio was okay, but ultimately disappointing and had a stupid finish. Highlight was Savio's badass entrance and Bronco being psychotic enough to attack a guy with a baseball bat

Someone on youtube has already uploaded big chunks of the show. I wanna see the main and Savio v. Bronco and those aren't up so far as I can see. I did watch the mixed tag and the tag title match. Mixed tag had some fun moments from Invader a crowd going batshit for Colon's comeback, but not much else. Tag match was a total, balls to the wall sprint and super enjoyable.

Dave Meltzer responded to a brief summary post I wrote over at The Board on Patera and it was by far the most positive thing I've seen him say on Ken yet: He is very clearly a deserving candidate for the ballot. He was with Murdoch, Ole, Snyder, Carpentier and one or two others right on the verge of going in the first year but I couldn't pull the trigger, seeing him as borderline. But very viable. As strong if not stronger than a lot of people/acts who have come close. He was a star from his first day in the business, and pretty well known in the sports world before he ever was in wrestling.

There was lots of older stuff discussed years ago on the net, though not in a detailed way all that often and that is the real difference. On Lawler he always had people who touted him as an all timer, but we were a small minority.

Oh sure there are lots of guys who have been overlooked, but Hart feels unique to me because prior to his book you almost never saw him discussed as an all time great at anything.

Well Hart had zero traction prior to his book/death. I don't recall his name ever coming up in HoF conversation prior to that point. Of course it's possible he was just overlooked, but it's not like he had a big cheering section prior to the book either.

This is an honest question - how much of the Hart stuff is directly sourced to his book? If Buck Robley had written a well regarded book, instead of doing a series of "shoots" with Garby Cubeta would we be talking about him like we talk about Hart? I don't even mean that as a cheap shot, it's a serious question I have.

How is Hart a better candidate then say Ole Anderson or is he not?

What does successful manager/booker mean? I understand that Hart was around and perhaps involved in a lot of big moments, but what about his career is historically significant, unique or outstanding? What people in for booking or managing would he be comparable too?

Would be open to journeyman definitions. I would love to have nominations!

I don't really get the feeling NJPW apes shoot style all that much, other than Sakuraba. Dragon Gate has been in business for eight or nine years. Prior to NJPW's financial turn around over the last two years, Dragon Gate was almost certainly the most financially viable of all the promotions in Japan from everything I know. On Atlantis I've enjoyed the 90's Atlantis I've seen, but he doesn't have a single match I can recall where his performance completely blew me away. I mean I love the match with Villano III so I guess there is that, but other than that? I just can't think of anything. It's possible I'm just not watching the right matches.

Thanks for listening OJ I don't doubt this at all, but the problem of course is that UWA is one of the ultimate in "was it the brand or the wrestler that drew?" companies or at least that's always been my understanding of it. If you believe Farmer's research Hamada has 28 main events that drew 10k or more and he acknowledges that his research in Mexico is extremely incomplete. Of course the flip of that is that virtually all of those matches are trios (if not all of them) and who knows what he is even constituting as a main event. I kind of cringed when I said that not because I don't believe it but because I suspected it might be something that was honed in on. In any case my point was not well formed or fleshed out enough. One could argue that at it's peak shootstyle was vastly more significant and important then lucharesu, but the flip side of that is that there isn't a successful shootstyle promotion in Japan and hasn't been in years. I'm not a fan of Dragon Gate at all, but one could easily argue that aside from New Japan it's the most successful current Japanese promotion. More to the point one can draw a line from Hamada straight through MPro, to Toryumon, to DG. It's peaks have not been as significant as the peaks of shootstyle whether they be UWFI or RINGS or whatever. But it has been a more lasting niche form and a niche from that I think has in many ways influenced wrestling outside of Japan (I am staying away from the "Pride was pro wrestling" angle because it's a tired debate I have zero interest in hashing out, but I mention it to note that if someone sees shootstyles evolution in Japan as ending with actual shoots and shoots that drew huge I understand that is going to result in a massive difference of opinion here). Sayama is already in the Hall of Fame. I thought the brief discussion on him was pretty fair. I don't really disagree with your point here on either end (Hamada as the godfather in terms of promoting and Sayama as the "spiritual father"), but I also don't think it's an either or proposition. I'm not even a Sayama fan (though there are more Sayama matches I like then most people would probably assume) but I think he's an HoF guy and I think I was pretty specific in saying on the show that he is a guy who should be in on influence even though his peak run is probably as short or shorter than anyone else in the HoF. That's not damning him with feint praise, if anything that's given him a fuck ton of credit. Frankly there is no other candidate I can think of offhand who is comparable to Sayama. In any case I am not rock solid on Hamada, I just think he's one of the better candidates on the Japan section of the ballot and I think he has a strongish case on influence. As a worker I am nowhere near as high on Atlantis as some. To me he is hands down the most disappointing of all of the allegedly great Lucha workers. But there is a HUGE caveat here - I've seen very little of his 80's matches. Atlantis is a guy I will be watching closely on the 80's Set, because while I think he is a good worker, I've never really felt he was on the level of the other Lucha greats. A lot of this is probably the fact that he is nowhere near the worker right now that a lot of the other old guard guys are and while I acknowledge it's unfair to expect everyone to be at that level, he is noticeably behind Panther, Casas, Santo, Terry, Solar, Navarro and Villano IV on average over the last few years when I have been a hardcore fan. If peak Atlantis is as good as I've seen you and others say you will see me reverse course on him quickly. As far as drawing power goes I have no clue, but when I read the Atlantis Gordy List next to Villano III write up Jose did, or the discussions I've had with Kurt and others regarding Wagner Sr, or even Sims comments on guys like Park, I'd say Atlantis is probably one of the least of the draws in the Lucha category (I would guess Panther and Garza would be right there with him). Atlantis comes across more as a guy who was effective when pushed on top than a guy with a real record of popping houses. My inclination is toward saying that he is a good candidate, but not a great candidate, but I am still very soft on general Lucha history. I could see someone arguing Terry or Navarro over Panther as a maestro. I definitely think peak Terry is better, but most of the best matches from that period were brawls or brawl heavy. As far as BP in the top twenty, maybe he'd fall into my top 25 but I can't see him any lower. I like modern Panther a ton more than you though.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc On Episode 48 of The Wrestling Culture Podcast Dave Musgrave and I are joined by wrestler/wrestling historian/lucha smart guy! Kurt Brown to discuss the 2013 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame Ballot. Dave and I disagree a bit about some Japanese candidates, Kurt gives us the goods on the Lucha candidates, I freak out about the underrated greatness that is Carlos Colon and we all praise Blue Panther for being king of the maestros. Oh and Don Owen. We love Don Owen. So listen, enjoy and wait with baited breathe because part 2 on U.S. and Historical Candidates is coming soon!

It's okay, I'll probably have it higher than your number one

I think he has a dated look that works in an indie context but I'm not positive it would work in a big league. I can't even remember a Prophet interview offhand

Vordell is national champ now so that gives him something to build on. Prophet is a mixed bag. I have seen him in brawls where I thought he was pretty good, but I've never seen him in a straight match that was better than average. He got on my bad side this year by having a bad match with Kyle Matthews which is nearly impossible

Jeremy Wyatt v. Mark Sterling from the Metro Pro episode 130 is really good for the type of match it is and could easily be added to the list above. I just watched it last night. A couple of the ASW matches above are actually among my LEAST favorite of the ASW matches I've seen this year. I think the tag ladder match is probably the best going purely off memory.