Dylan Waco

Talk about some of the matches.

For roided up, unprofessional, douchebags, entertaining for potato fest and dangerous offense on unwilling opponents Bulldogs are a distant second to The Steiners.

To be clear you are talking U.S. guys right? I'm not saying I couldn't see an argument for Buddy in an all time top ten, but I just want to make sure that I'm reading you right. And if I am that leads to my next question - where would Bock (and Buddy) be on an all time list for you right now? I'm pretty sure I'd have both in my top twenty. Maybe top fifteen. I see both as top ten contenders, but not sure if they would be inside or outside of it.

I think the answer to the first couple of questions is "both." I think he took time off because he wanted to take time off to heal/spend time with family/do other shit AND I think he took time off because he knew he would stay fresh that way. He had his full run on the road with Amarillo, then as the guy who would prime Dory's title matches and then as the NWA champion himself. We just don't have much of it on tape. I think the flipside of the fact that working a less regular schedule allows you to think more about certain things is that if you aren't working with same guys night after night you don't have the benefit of a routine you can coast on.

Again I don't consider it a negative that he didn't let himself get stale. I think that's smart marketing. Understanding that you are a valuable, special commodity is a big part of being a great wrestler.

I consider Funk's last outlaw gimmick to be a huge plus in the sense that he was able to sell himself a certain way where he knew he would never get stale. I can see the argument that it presents an advantage, I just don't see it that way

Here is what I disagree with: Valentine didn't sell - bullshit lie or ignorant statement. Valentine sold fine and was actually very good at long term selling Valentine worked stiff but didn't do it in a way that made things look like they hurt - "is acid legal?" - Bill Parcels Valentine was trained by Stu Hart and got his working style from him - Comically stupid statement since he was clearly a clone of his dad and I don't recall Bret or Ben Basserab working like Greg Valentine Valentine shouldn't have been as successful as he was - At least he is acknowledging that Greg was very successful, but I think the reason he was so successful is precisely because he was a credible worker like his dad. I do agree that Greg wasn't oozing with charisma and he had a stodgy, slow moving look. At times he could grind a match to a halt, though I don't think he is even close to the worst guy from that era in that regard.

I didn't say this on the show, but to me the biggest negative for Flair in a GOAT debate is that of the guys who I would seriously consider for that mantle he has by far the worst low points and they lasted for a substantial period of his career. This came up in a conversation with my brother last night and I figured it was worth mentioning

The Rockers ? (don't show me the door, I know the way...) I want people to remember this the next time I am accused of having an irrational hatred of Shawn Michaels.

Sailor White is like the best possible Barry Darsow.

I like Demolition fine. Could possibly be convinced they were better than the Hart Foundation. Better than The Islanders? Strike Force? I don't see it. Better than Pierre Lefevbre/Frenchy Martin? Highly unlikely.

Note that I fucking HATE the Brisco's v. North/South tag that finished so high on the originally WWF Set. I don't think it's unwatchable, but I think it's totally disorganized and uninteresting. On the other hand I LOVE the handheld match between those two teams from Boston. This thread tells me the case for Brisco during that time frame is really thin based on the existing footage.

I don't disagree. That is why I think at minimum you have to have Lucha out. Honestly I really think Portland should be too, but at least the Buddy Set exists. With Europe it would be ideal but there is a fuckload of it on youtube and it's not likely to get taken down. Anyhow my point isn't "it's a mistake to wait til those things are done" so much as it is that there will never really be a perfect time.

In an ideal world all of the above gets done before such a poll gets done. On the other hand by the time that point hits there will be a valid argument that we need sets on various stuff that occurred in the 00's to do a reasonable poll. I wouldn't want to set a timeline now, but the key is that the infrastructure is there and people are watching the footage.

I like Lynn. I don't think he's a great wrestler or even close to it. But I do agree that he's a guy who always works hard. I was impressed with him when watching for the ECW Set. Most of the RVD matches were what I expected and not in the good way, but the series with Credible was better than expected and I loved the matches with Mikey. I think the next generation of guys who followed the example of the RVD/Lynn matches were a lot worse about the 2.9 stuff than he was.

We have as much of Rose as we do of Bock. Maybe more. I love Bock. But Buddy at his peak is the best wrestler I've ever seen. If he had high end challengers it's scary to think of what he would have been able to do. I would have Buddy above Bock. I would not fault anyone for rating Bock ahead of him, but I am a Buddy guy. Hell Buddy in 86 was every bit as good as Bock in 86 and that's during the period where Bock had the series he is most known for by modern fans.

The Microscope is there. The infrastructure is in place. Let a thousand roses bloom in that forum. I am all for it, but I agree that at minimum the 90's yearbooks should be finished and the Lucha 80's Set should be released.

Waste of time. If you don't like Embry on the Texas Set I can't imagine you liking him as a heel either.

Bock/Stevens v. Wahoo/Dick The Bruiser - 6/73 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_K-wLZU0wM 2/3 Falls from Chicago. This is almost worth watching just to listen to Bob Luce lose his shit over this match which he was originally talking about past tense, but then switches to calling it like it's happening live. Best of all he makes this switch as the clipping gets really egregious. First fall there is a fair amount of footage, but they break up the heat section which sucks because I was really enjoying the way it was worked. Final two falls are heavily clipped to the point of being mere highlights, but we do get an epic blade job from Bock and I enjoyed watching the various bumps he was busting out for the babyface offense. Worth watching as another indication that Bock/Stevens was probably quite the team.

Pillman was the Rey of the period but WCW was far too stupid to capitalize on this. Like Rey Pillman could be plugged in credibly against anyone on the card and he was completely credible. He stayed over whether he was working Rip Rogers or Ric Flair and the crowd came with him. If WCW wasn't fucking idiotic they would have put him into that sliding scale slot for good and really developed it. Fucking idiots. Also if you liked this wait til you get to the Windham feud

Don't want to pile on to Loss, but that finish came across like one of the cartels had gotten to the ref pre-match and wanted him to work the finish or his children would be killed. Might not have been so bad with a legit count, but the speed of the count made it the "you've got to be fucking kidding me" inverse of Hogan v. Sting.

I suspect Johnny's view would be pretty common. What's kind of funny to think about is that you can make a case that Bock really would have been the better choice to win the belt back from Martel than Hansen in hindsight. Yes he was "the old guy" but he had credibility with the AWA fans and you can envision a scenario pretty easily in which a heel Bock could have drawn very well against face Sarge, face Blackwell or with a partner against face Road Warriors in 85.

I agree with this. Right now I would take Bock over Race for a variety of reasons. I like Race and see Race as Angle as an overblown criticism. I also agree with OJ that the matches with Hogan are very good. On the other thing Race is very much a "get his shit in" at all cost type of wrestler. Sometimes that helps a match dramatically and can even make a nothing match on paper a lot of fun (thinking Race v. Rich from GAB 90 here). Sometimes that can have the effect of hampering a match. I will say that while I liked the Blackwell v. Race match I recently watched, I thought Blackwell was the star of it - but you could argue this was Harley toward the end of his run as a great wrestler and one match samples aren't terribly meaningful. In any case Bock is a guy who I don't see as being terribly interested in getting his shit in every match. Yes he has signature bits and stock spots. Yes you could probably find them in most of his matches. But I think he tends to wrestle different - even against the same opponent - more than most. Not so radically different that he looks like a completely different guy each time, but he does seem to tailor things more on a match by match basis.

http://www.amazon.com/Mad-Dogs-Midgets-Scr...s/dp/1770410945 So listeners to Wrestling Culture know about this book as we had Pat on some time back to talk about the book and Montreal. The interview was probably my favorite show we've done so if you haven't heard it go back and give it a listen. In any event I just finished the book tonight and I absolutely loved it. I'm going to say right away that it is not a book without flaws. It is a book written by Quebecers about Quebec wrestling so there is obviously going to be some bias present in the writing (as there is in all writing). There are some errors or unclear things at certain points in the book, some of which I would chalk up to English being the second language of the authors, and some of which I think should have been caught and fixed (for example there is a table at the end of the book where "Athens, USA" is listed as a top ten drawing town in the World - I don't think there is any Athens in the World that qualifies, let alone one in the U.S.). There are some quotes from wrestlers that aren't analyzed for truth which is an annoying thing for some people (less so for me as the years go by, even if I find them less believable as the years go by). But taken as a whole I think it is almost exactly what I would want in a book about a territory that isn't as talked about as the others. One thing I really liked about the book was the way it was organized. I honestly had thought the book would either be a straight narrative history or a book in the vein of the Oliver/Johnson Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame books with profiles on individuals. Instead it's both. There are rundowns on the key periods and eras and then each key player in the era is discussed in a profile. The big players get more meat to the profiles obviously, but there are really solid profiles on lesser known figures as well. I would be hard pressed to pick the ones I enjoyed the most, but I did really enjoy the ones on PCO and Paul Vachon. After the key runs are discussed there is a detailed discussion on the WWF takeover, the rise of Jacques Rougeau as a sort of hopscotching carny working promotional schemes with both WWF and WCW to great effect, a brief look at the modern Indy scene and then a look at Midgets, Women, Venues and the evolution of wrestling television in Montreal over the years. It's extremely comprehensive, which some might even consider a flaw, but I found extremely refreshing. The book ends with a ranking of the top singles wrestlers and tag teams in the history of the Montreal territory as voted on by a panel that is also listed (which I thought was cool), along with the complete listing of the Quebec Wrestling Hall of Fame, a great table with the top fifty drawing shows in the history of Montreal, the promoter of record and the main event. There is also a couple of tables that look at Montreal's historic record as a draw though I think the metric there is flawed. In any event it looks as though there were a ton of people interviewed for this and I think this would be a great book for someone to buy if they were interested in learning more about wrestling or wrestlers from just about any era. So many little things I learned from it and so many guys who were covered that even many hardcore fans either wouldn't know at all or would know very little about. Guys like Richard Charland and Pierre Lefevbre get there due, a guy like Ray Rougeau is very well covered and quoted and the book just has the sort of insight on regional wrestling that I think makes it something so many of us love. The book is pretty long (423 pages) but the way it is written you could put it down and pick it back up five months later and it wouldn't make a difference. It's almost like an oral history in the sense that while it flows together it's not something you have to read straight through to get a lot out of. Anyhow I'm not really doing the book justice and I don't want to overboard with a magnum opus length review, but it's something well worth getting if you were on the fence.

Bock/Stevens v. Red Bastien/Billy Robinson - 11/73 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSImbg_AJIM This is a 2/3 Falls studio match and a hell of a tv match from the period. I'm not saying this would blow anyway away now, but this was basically a workrate tag by the standards of the era, but with each team having clearly defined roles and a heat section to temper the pace. You could critique some of the babyface work and there was one awkward moment from the heels, but over all I can't imagine anyone watching this and not thinking it was impressive given the circumstances. The babyfaces brought almost all the strong offense in this, but that was sort of the point of the match and for the 70's this had some pretty great looking offense. The heels held up their end well by bumping for the big offense, reacting well to the spots and doing a really good job when in control. Cheating, cutting off the ring, punches, eye gouges as cutoff spots, Bock clinging to people from the guard to isolate them, cheap shot slaps to the face during the KOTM spot, pretty nasty looking stomps, et. The heels weren't going to win on style points, but again that was sort of the point of the match. Two falls straight, with the faces using the flashy work to win, but I came out of this thinking all four guys put on good performances. I know there really isn't much Bock/Stevens out there but you can tell they were a good compliment to each other and a good team even based on the little bit we have. This would make a 70's set.