Dylan Waco

I only saw the last hour. What I saw was pretty good, but nothing great. What I will say is that I think the finish is interesting because if the exact same finish happens with guys the internet doesn't love I imagine it would be routinely shit on and considered horrible.

I thought it was interesting that Larry went out of his way not to mention that. I'm sure that's a factor in him being so opposed to Colon's candidacy, but I actually thought he was reasonably balanced when discussing it. His dismissal of Torres, The Assassins and the RnR's was actually much harsher.

More later but here is a synopsis of Patera's career history challenging for major singles titles. Major/World Title Matches: Patera had six known NWA World Title matches, in four different territories, against four different champions. He challenged Terry Funk in Tulsa, Harley Race in Toronto and twice in St. Louis, Dusty Rhodes in The Omni in Atlanta and Ric Flair in St. Louis. The first of these matches was in 1976, the last in 1982. Patera had thirty-eightknown shots at the WW(W)F World Title, against four different champions, with all but a handful of the matches occurring in major markets/arenas. He challenged Billy Graham once (small spot show in Portland, Maine), Hulk Hogan three times (Denver, Miami and the Philly Spectrum) , Bruno five times (three times in MSG, once in the Boston Garden and once at the Nassau Coliseum) and Bob Backlund twenty-eight times (four times in MSG, four times in the Boston Garden, three times in Landover, three times in Baltimore, two times in Toronto, three times in Pittsburgh, two times at the Philly Spectrum, two times in Springfield including a Cage Match, one time in Greensboro, one time in Providence, one time in St. Louis, one time in Albany, one time in New Haven and one time in Portland, Maine). The first of these matches was in Jan of 1977, the last in June of 1985. Patera had one AWA title match against Otto Wanz in Green Bay in 1982. Patera wrestled for the NWF title in New Japan Pro Wrestling twice, both times an opponent of Antonio Inoki (1980 and 1981). Patera wrestled Giant Baba in a PWF Title in All Japan Pro Wrestling in 1977.

John do you have dates/details for any of these matches readily available?

Looking at this he only nets a few "main events" with the Norfolk inclusion. Raleigh and Winston-Salem (with an 8500 seat arena btw) would really pad the results for Patera and I could see an argument for both, but absent an expert from the region making the argument I think it's best to leave them off for now.

Yeah I just meant I was counting those Metro's as one place a piece for the purposes of my sanity. Not sure about Mid-Atlantic Gateway. I'll include Norfolk.

I am using Tulsa. I am also using Honolulu (though he had only one main event there). My reasoning is that they were the big stops for the respective territories. I'm also bunching Dallas/Ft. Worth, Oakland/San Fran, and the Twin Cities as it seems silly not to even though I will inevitably run into criticism about how they "weren't the same" back then. I already had Providence worked in. It's a big city, with a large venue IIRC. I also included Denver, Winnipeg and Salt Lake City because they were consistent loop towns in the AWA that ran in big venues. I left a place like Springfield, Mass off even though they regularly got big cards (title defenses, big Bruno matches, et). Actually here is a list of notable omissions from the list: Las Vegas Green Bay Omaha Springfield Indianapolis Buffalo Roanoke Norfolk Raleigh Winston-Salem Phoenix I could see arguments for all of them. MACW presents the real challenge because the more I look into venues the more weird things I find. I had forgotten how big the Hampton Roads Coliseum is for instance and that would have been a bigger venue than the Exhibition Hall at the Scope by a wide margin. Then you'll find stuff like this: 9/17/78 Roanoke, VA @ Civic Center Tony Atlas beat Ken Patera to win Mid Atlantic Title Blackjack Mulligan & Paul Jones beat NWA Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Baron Von Raschke dq Mr Wrestling Tim Woods beat Ciclon Negro Ted Oates & Jerry Oates vs Rudy Kay & Scandor Akbar David Patterson beat Joe Furr Which appears to be an early match in a multi-month long feud they ran out of Roanoke a nearly 10k seat facility. I don't believe for a second the place was selling out every night or close to it. But the fact that it was positioned to carry a venue of that size is impressive. Then you have Savannah which was theoretically a nearly 10k seat building but by all accounts was never configured for much more than 2/3s of that. The building in Charlotte was much smaller by comparison but again it's a "market of note" and a "wrestling town." If someone can present me with a compelling argument to include any of the towns/buildings on my list I'll do it. I talked to one of the more well respected writers on MACW history today and while it was an enjoyable conversation he seemed to have the same shoulder shrugging take that I have to the whole thing.

I think the best approach to this would be for everyone to trademark their own misspelling.

I'm going to post my "findings" later, but what I have done is noted the shows that could be reasonably considered dual main events in the WWF. I will explain it in greater detail in the post but there are a bunch of qualifier's I felt the need to make. Most of them error on the side of playing down Patera's impact as a top of the card performer (for instance not including buildings like Roanoke, Asheville or Raleigh in his "major main event" totals even though they were buildings with minimum 7k capacities in a territory that often ran much smaller venues or not giving him ANY "main event" credit for all but a handful of AWA shows where he didn't technically "go on last" despite the fact that the AWA regularly ran double and even triple main events). Right now the broadest possible interpretation under the perimeters I have currently set has Patera "main eventing" 188 "major" shows for no fewer than thirteen offices. I haven't really tried to establish a "conservative" interpretation but I would think even someone inclined to give him no benefits of the doubt would be hard pressed to chip off anymore than thirty of those from his total. Of course some of these are tag matches and some are singles but you'll see the point. I also plan on hashing out a list of common opponents/feuds as in the past I have forgotten to include names like Dibiase and Brisco among the impressive list of people he worked programs with.

Cool. That could really help me fill in some gaps. I found some extended NJPW results from Patera's 84 tour last night that I previously had missed. I decided to include Richmond on my big venue/major market list but not Raleigh or Roanoke (which was a nearly 10k seat building). I don't want to give the impression that I am artificially inflating Patera's numbers. I'm hoping to get up these numbers this weekend, though it may be a while longer. There are other metrics a record book could really help me with as things develop.

I was always taught you should never start a sentence with "however." However, years later I was told that rule was nonsense.

I was basically joking, though I couldn't help but find it amusing. I don't even think Snyder is a bad candidate. But Snyder has popped up a lot in my own projects and looking at Torres record book I think Torres is clearly the better candidate.

Want some advice on something. I am going to work on a bunch of more concise data points to showcase the strengths of Patera's career. One that I'm working on right now is tracking down all of his major title matches (by that I mean NWA or WWF world title matches) and every major market/large arena show headlined. Solely so I can avoid accusation of bias I am leaving almost every disputable "main event" match off the list. This means a lot of co-main event/headline feud matches will NOT appear on the list (I may correct for that with a second list that would include secondary title matches and title defenses or even a "featured match" metric, though that is more arbitrary and opens things up to accusations of bias). There are issues where it is impossible to say what is the "true" main event particularly in the WWF with the oddball structuring of cards relative to other territories. In those instances I will list the "other" possible match so people can judge for themselves. I'm also including relevant appearances on super shows here because it feels like this is the right place to put it. One problem I'm running into though is how to handle MACW. Because they ran so many shows and a lot of the venues even in bigger markets were not huge it is hard to get a strong feel for what arenas/towns should be a part of this metric. I have included Charlotte because of it's historic standing as a "wrestling" town and I will include Greensboro as well (though offhand I can't remember if he ever technically worked up top there). On the other hand you have towns like Raleigh which are much bigger now than they were then where Patera headlined a lot. He headlined some in Richmond which is a big town and was probably one of the bigger towns in the territory even then but I don't know how to handle it. It seems like including only Charlotte and Greensboro is "wrong" but I'm not sure what other spots I should include. If anyone has any ideas on how to handle this let me know. Edit: Leaning toward including Richmond and not Raleigh. Looks like it may have been one of two 10k plus buildings that were regular on the circuit. Roanoke was just under. Raleigh 7k. This is not easy

Matisyk was on the show with Bryan and Dave today talking his book and the HoF today. He sort of buried Torres as "okay" and clearly beneath Snyder. Someone needs to send him Yohe's record book as Torres was a biggest star in the beloved St. Louis than Larry is remembering.

I'll have more to say later but the final tally is that the High Flyers were the "on last" main event on 40% of these shows. 40% of the time they were in the semi-main. 20% of the time they were third from the top. In all of these matches they were working top tier guys with the possible (and amusing) exception of the Strike Force tag Dave loved.

Oakland should be included as he almost certainly went to those shows. Funny how the Flyers are in featured matches on all of these shows but Dave seemed very dismissive of the idea that they were featured performers for the company.

The Bay Area was the death market for Verne. When they ran Battle Royals or had Andre in they did well. Other than that they NEVER really did well in the Bay Area, especially not relative to the rest of the territory. If you go back and look at the results there are periods where the territory is doing sellouts in GB/Milwaukee, 7-9k in Winnipeg/Denver, over 10k in SLC and 15K plus in St. Paul/Chicago with consistency...and San Fran is LUCKY to do 4 or 5k. It was EASILY there worst drawing market. Basing anything purely off of what he saw there is meaningless. On Patera Dave really hasn't engaged the particulars. I asked him if he could think of any guys not already in or on the ballot getting high totals with a similar resume and he named Jardine (who should be on the ballot and I would think would be a good candidate), Valentine (who should be on the ballot IMO), Muraco, Slater, Masked Superstar, Blackjack Mulligan, Waldo Von Erich, Rocky Johnson and Paul Orndorff. The only one he really tried to comp him to was Orndorff who he said he wasn't sure he'd rate Patera above because of Paul's peak (though he did note that Patera's run was longer). I don't know enough about Waldo, and I'd want to look closer at Blackjack, but I think on the surface level Patera is a better candidate than all of those guys sans maybe Jardine (who I'd also have to look into more). In fact I think Patera is easily a better candidate than a few of them (Johnson, Slater, Superstar) and if you look at things closely a clear step up from others (Muraco, Orndorff). But I let it settle because I don't want to play my whole hand a year before the vote is up. I did get a pretty thoughtful post on Patera over at Classics that was critical of some of the particulars of my argument. I answered those criticisms pretty specifically and to be honest after re-reading through the results in the process of my rebuttal I think his case is even stronger than I originally thought. http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=7;t=000524 Think about this. By the time his second full year in the business had ended Patera had had main events and featured matches on a consistent basis in the AWA, Texas (Dallas office) and MACW. His feuds were with Ivan Koloff (teaming with Graham), Billy Graham (I'd forgotten the Graham feud actually headlined a show at the Memorial Audotorium in Dallas), The Blackjacks, The Andersons, Johnny Valentine and Ric Flair. And this is the period that people consider his WEAK period when he was "floundering" and hadn't "found himself." Then after his prime ended in 81 all he did was sellout numerous buildings on the AWA circuit, feud with Hogan and when he was "way past his prime" (as I was told the other day) in 83 and 84 he was literally in and out of four different territories where he was main eventing or near the top virtually every time (St. Louis, Montreal, Memphis and the AWA). I know I'm preaching to the choir but the closer I look at Patera the more impressed I am. There are guys in the HoF who's primes as drawing cards are nowhere near as impressive as Patera's WEAK periods.

For the record I agree with this.

It will win but it shouldn't. Had they spent the week hyping it up with pics of the Defib/snoring dub bit maybe. As it was they used one segment to "hype" another on the show. Not enough long term and not calculated enough for me even if it was tasteless. I'll be voting for Balls/New Jack "feud" which looks to have been a bizarre worked shoot based around blatant racism that saw a guy get savagely between down by a machete wielding lunatic all so Feinstein - who exacerbated the whole thing deliberately - could make a couple bucks and both guys could get the "shoot tape booking" they need to support their respective drug habits.

The guys who have the biggest claims based on WCW alone are Sting, Luger, Goldberg and DDP. Vader might have been someone you could have argued for on the ballot as a result of his WCW run because his work was so good and he did some good business v. Hogan, but no way in hell he was getting in on that alone. When you look at the other four names, the only guy who has ever even been on the ballot is Sting and I think we all know none of the other guys would get enough support to even merit placing them on the ballot. I guess you could include names like Hogan and Flair on this but it seems weird to try and divorce them from their other accomplishments. Not sure the Patera stuff with Dave is worse dragging over. It's basically him repeating "he's a viable candidate, top ten on the ballot is a stretch" or some variant of that over and over. I quit arguing for the time being because I think I made my point. The High Flyers stuff is more amusing because I really wasn't even touting them as candidates. I just mentioned them generally in reference to good drawing tag teams who would never get in. It wasn't even a critical statement really as I was noting that it is (justifiably in my view) harder for tag teams to get in than singles guy. Dave responded with: I watched the High Flyers every month live. They were good, but if they're a Hall of Fame tag team, then nearly every babyface team that was put over that was above average were. The only thing they had is they were together a long time, but they were good. Far far from great, unless doing acceptable semi-final matches makes you a Hall of Fame tag team. For a comparison, couldn't hold a candle as workers to Gordman & Goliath (when they worked as faces), Rock & Roll Express, Rockers, Steamboat & Youngblood, Patterson & Johnson, Graham & Keirn, Briscos and a lot of others from that era. I responded with: I wasn't advocating for them as workers, though I think suggesting they were just a middling "good" team that was standard for the era is selling them short. They had plenty of very good matches against a variety of opponents many of which are readily available for those who want to find out for themselves. I definitely agree that teams like The Rockers and RnR's were better, but I think the Flyers were better than a lot of teams that are remembered more fondly. They seem to be a very pleasant surprise to many people I know who are watching them now for the first time (or rewatching them for the first time in years) and Jim Melby of all people went on record in saying "The High Flyers, when I worked in the wrestling business, were the best tag team in wrestling. In their era nobody compares." I wouldn't go that far, but they were a very good in ring team and they have the matches against a wide variety of opponents to prove it. It's also simply untrue to say the only thing they had is that they were together for a long time. Yes they worked second to last often, but that was more often than not a featured program/semi-main event slot in the AWA. It certainly was a slot that meant more than The Fantastics/Midnights slot did in WCCW. On top of that they often went on last, even in the biggest markets, on shows that drew big money. They had strong money feuds against a variety of teams working in arena's in SLC, Denver, Winnipeg, St. Paul, Chicago, Green Bay and Milwaukee that were considerably bigger than the B show arenas the Midnights and RnR's often headlined for Crockett. The Midnights had the Mid-South run and they drew money, but it's pretty hard to argue that The High Flyers weren't a money drawing team when all the available evidence including AWA fans from the era, the responses of live crowds and tv angles that we can see from the available footage, and the massive amount of results with attendance figures point in that direction. That's not to say the Flyers are better candidates than the Midnights or the RnR's - I don't think they are. But arguing that they were just a decent, standard babyface team that worked second from the top in solid matches is a massive underselling of them. Then Dave came back with: You didn't see them live every month. They weren't special over anymore than a babyface tag team would be. Yes, in Minneapolis because of the Gagne name they were strong, but in places like Denver and Chicago they were the babyface tag team, no better or worse than any other pushed face team of the era. They went to St. Louis and were okay, but were over like mid-card guys. They usually had good matches, but very rarely had great matches. Over the space of many years I can recall a pretty good match with Stevens & Patterson just for the entertainment value of them getting booed out of the building, a nice 40 minute match with Martel & Santana (not great, but very good) where Martel & Santana were clearly the better working team, a bunch of *** to ***1/4 bouts with Adrian & Jesse (when Adrian was one of the best workers in the world and you would be surprised how much they got booed in those bouts), some good matches with Patera & Blackwell, but I can't recall one great High Flyers match I saw. For all the talk of being over, I heard enough High Criers chants at live shows in the early 80s that you rarely would get with top faces in those days. Martel & Santana is the best one I can remember. They almost never had bad matches. As a comparison, Graham & Keirn in a similar spot were a lot better. Keirn in those days had explosive real-ness if that's such a term and Graham, a small guy, also came across as real. Brunzell never felt real, just a performer with an awesome dropkick and a good, sometimes very good worker. Greg was solid. Much better than his critics claim. A skinny guy who worked well but was nothing special, but could get over because if he worked with a good heel, they'd make him look good. I can't recall Greg ever having a bad match and rarely having a great match. Steamboat & Youngblood were in another stratusphere. Those two guys were fantastic, maybe the most underrated team of all-time. Among AWA fans, The Flying Redheads were always considered a far, far better team. I never saw the Flying Redheads, but saw enough Bastien to believe it. Then I came back/got the final word with: It's true that I didn't see them live every week. But Jim Melby did and it doesn't look like he agreed with you. Other wrestling historians and regular fans from the Midwest did and don't agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion, but the bulk of people I know who grew up on or watched the AWA at the time tout the High Flyers as a very strong team, who were a big part of the promotions success. When you go back and watch the footage now and look at the attendance figures/results it's almost impossible to dispute that. I will grant that it is likely they got booed heavily at times, in different markets, especially against the wrong opponent (I've heard smatterings of this toward the end of their run in Winnipeg). But that's not uncommon. Mr. "Rock Star Pop" Shawn Michaels is someone I saw get heavily booed live a the height of his popularity/run as ace (a run where he didn't really draw). I saw Sting live dozens of times and despite the fact that he is correctly remembered as the babyface face of WCW I can't count the number of times I was present when fans went rogue and cheered for Flair and even Rick Rude over him. Hell I went to high school gym shows as a kid where significant portions of the crowd were shitting on the RnR's in favor of the Midnights and the RnR's are generally thought to be the best working babyface team of all time (I certainly believe that). That's not to say they were the best team in AWA history in the ring. A team like The Flying Redheads or Race/Hennig very well may have been better (I get that impression from talking to these same AWA fans). It's also not to say that they didn't get some awfully good challengers for opponents - they did. But in talking to multiple people who did see them live week to week for the duration of their run, your position is the minority position. Of course that's not to say they belong in the HoF. As you noted they were only stars in one territory (albeit a massive one geographically). They were not influential at all. And while I think they were a better working team than you do, they were not an all time great working team based on what I've seen. But they were positioned very well on the card, in feuds that drew well and made money all over a very big circuit. That's something that really can't be disputed.

In many ways this is true now. At the height of the popularity they were promoted as major deals/once and a lifetime type of events. I don't think the nature of wrestling's highly saturated tv market allows for that to be done nearly as well.

UFC is a drastically different product regardless of what some people want to believe. I'm not saying their buyrates couldn't be better, but they will never be consistently good again, no matter how hot the product is.

Every single criticism made of Lawler as a heel here can and has been made of Flair.