Dylan Waco

I had very few responsibilities back then

Blaze was underrated. Not a "light the world on fire" type of guy, but he was good and likely would have gotten very good if there had been any place for him to go and really learn post-SMW.

When I came to the scene in early 1998, Jumbo was already talked about as a GOAT I remember. On Lawler, yeah most probably, but tons of Fujiwara footage has been available for ages. Again, the UWF (1 & 2), PFWG and 80's NJ tapes from the big UWF vs NJ matches were already around 14 years ago, I remember seeing Fuji's name all over Mike Lorefice's tape list back then. Where was this? I frequented just about every major board during that period and while it is theoretically possible there were one or two guys calling him the GOAT (as I was one of two or three guys who would put Funk in that conversation at the time) it was by no means a large group of people or block of people or a narrative that was widely held/talked about at the time. On Fujiwara the matches existed in circulation to some degree, but not in controlled format that was easy to purchase and view. I don't remember any "Best of Fujiwara collections" though it's possible they existed. One of the most valuable things about the DVD comps that have exploded from 05 forward is that you can see career arcs of guys either on their own comp or through a chronological timeline in the promotion they were working in.

As I understand it, there was always a contingent advocating for Jumbo as GOAT. As footage spread, so did that sentiment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but guys like Lawler and Fujiwara weren't really pimped on that level even by those who had seen the footage until fairly recently. There may have been a contingent somewhere pimping him as GOAT, but I don't recall hearing it from anyone, anywhere until 99ish. Even then there were still more people touting guys like Dynamite, Flair, Misawa and Kawada than Jumbo. On Lawler and Fujiwara you are radically overestimating the amount of footage that was available/seen by significant numbers of people. There really weren't very many people at all who had seen the footage until fairly recently. That's not surprising as there had been no major effort to collect the footage until fairly recently. Fujiwara is someone who's rep has grown with a relatively small group of people directly because of the availability of footage that beforehand really wasn't seen by very many people at all. With Lawler it is a bit more nuanced as there were always Lawler fans online, including some that considered him a top ten all timer or near that level myself included. But those touting Lawler were either A. acting on fragments of what we have now as the amount of widely disseminated Memphis/90's indies has grown exponentially over the last decade or B. people like Cornette, Bowdren, et who were from the area and watched him in real time where they could appreciate his greatness week to week. So while Lawler always had his fans that saw him as a top tier guy, that number has grown and the willingness to see him as a legit GOATC has grown because far more footage is now available.

Citing mode of attack is not really what I think of when I think of formula/type of match. Flair would usually attack the leg too, but I don't think anyone would say "leg work and psychology built around that are is what Flair formula is." Suzuki/Tanahashi was clearly not your standard Tanahashi style match even if general mode of attack was similar. Honestly I can't believe this is even an argument as even people who like Tanahashi a hell of a lot more than me have pointed to this match as distinct and different from his usual efforts.

Suzuki was working within the Tanahashi formula? Is that a serious statement? Now granted I don't watch a ton of Tanahashi, but I've watched at least a half dozen matches of his every year for the last six or seven years (probably more but I'm being conservative). I have NEVER seen him involved in a match like that. If that match is indicative of Tanahashi matches I've been missing, please point to those matches so I can watch them.

I don't understand your point. Almost every single alleged "revision" can be tied directly to new footage/greater distribution of existing footage.

Anyone that listens to Observer Radio, I assume. I actually prefer him over Dave Meltzer, myself. Although both of them have their pros and cons. I've listened to a few of the shows in the last couple of weeks and I don't care what Bryan thinks - certainly not to the extent that he effects the way I think about anything.

We've been over this before, but "Jumbo is the GOAT" was not even close to consensus when I first starting poking around online 17 or 18 years ago. Didn't really change until 99/00 as I recall.

Who cares what Alvarez thinks?

As an aside listening to the Dave/Bryan show on HITC today, Bryan and Dave both disliked the first half of the Sheamus/Show match and Dave said the reason the match was good is that they kicked out of the two finishes.

Your argument doesn't make sense. Saying "this can't be a WCW type of thing because WCW did shitty finishes/main events more often" is not an argument against that angle/finish being shitty.

Not that I disagree with your broader point John, but a good 70's comp from Will is going to have a fair amount of really good Portland from 77-79 and should have a lot of great stuff from WoS.

lol

I thought the same thing about Show and Henry and assume that is how Henry is coming back in. Henry has been badly missed.

The funniest part about that is that watching it now I mind it a little less and it looks less fake/business exposing/silly to me than something like Elgin/Richards.

Lol. I thought it was better than every single one of the NJPW matches people think are good, except for Tanahashi v. Suzuki. And I have about the same degree of interest in both guys characters as you do.

Orton/Del Rio was dreadful? I am bored as fuck by both guys every time they show up on tv and even with the absurd top rope spot I thought it was easily a good match. Will's point is not wrong, but the difference back then is that every ppv mattered to some degree. Now the ppvs matter less, so when you have a match like this that is heavily hyped and seems like a huge deal the shittiness of a singular finish stands out more. Fucking people over every time when ppv mattered was worse. Fucking people over on a match that actually felt like an opportunity to do something big (and I don't necessarily mean a clean win or loss either), in an era where matches almost never have that feel is pretty bad though. In five years time I'd be shocked if anyone remembers anything about the show other than the finish.

Bingo. This really reminded me of NWO Era shit. People want to make the Flair comp, but even something like the cage being brought up so the Horseman could attack was better than this. It was lame, transferred all the heat to the ref, made Punk look like a complete fraud as a champion (rather than a pussy heel), and did nothing to help Ryback at all. If I had paid for the show it would have been the last time I paid for a WWE event for a long time.

I honestly cannot believe anyone loved the finish. I can see thinking it wasn't as bad as I did. I can even (maybe) see thinking it was the best available of the shitty options. But actually enjoying it and thinking it was a good finish? I am amazed there are people who fall into that category.

Can you stop posting SOLELY for the purposes of trolling?

That's literally the worst finish I've seen in years. Every single person on the writing staff should be fired for that shit. Match was probably as good as it could have been, but man that ending was shit.

Man Dolph is totally eating the fall in HITC. The divas match was perfectly fine for what it was. They tried hard and hit some nice looking spots if nothing else.

Best part about it was that it was not entirely bomb throwing and instead built to the big bombs. If Meltzer shits on that match he's fucking insane. It even got the crowd back into the show.

Kind of figured it was Sheamus time to drop the belt as they had started hyping how long he has held it and I figured with the Punk angle that wasn't a good sign for him. That match started off really slow and took a while to suck me in, but by the end they absolutely succeeded. Loved little things like the clover leaf spot, the post shots on the floor with Show, and Show actually hitting the Vader Bomb. Hell of a finishing run. Every single big spot looked big and Sheamus deadlifting Show was fucking insane. Finish also looked really great. Ideally Sheamus will turn heel in the aftermath, though I doubt it.