Dylan Waco

Rob Van Dam I guess Rob has never been on the ballot. I could absolutely see him having a small and serious group of supporters, particularly if there are ECW loyalists among the voter pool. Having said that watching the ECW stuff back I thought that while RVD was clearly the biggest star from 98 forward, he was not often in a real "money" position and there is only so much credit you give him for a failed company. He stayed over in the WWE, but largely underachieved. I would not think it strange for RVD to get a crack at the ballot, but it would essentially be throwing a bone to a small number of people who think cult status means more than it really does. Junkyard Dog I'd have to be convinced NOT to vote for JYD. Biggest star and biggest draw in the history of one of the most well regarded territories in wrestling history means a lot to me. Especially when the gates and numbers he were drawing were record setting levels and he seemed to sustain solid momentum through multiple programs. Not sure how he drew in Stampede during his run there, but I know he was a good draw in the WWF for the slots he was used in. I've heard the claim that he was the companies number two drawing babyface after Hogan during the initial boom years and while I don't know if the data backs that up, or how big of a deal that should be seen as, it doesn't seem like a real stretch to me. The big negative is that he sucked in the ring, but I don't think he is nearly as bad as some do - certainly not a Big Daddy type. A case could be argued that the brevity of his peak works against him, but there are people who were not nearly as important that are on the ballot and in the hall. Big Show I'm sure a lot of people will scoff at me including him as a "guy who should go on the ballot" choice but he does have some positives and I think he has value on the ballot as a point of comparison to other modern candidates (Edge, Batista, et.). I think of him as one of the better big man workers ever, but I don't see that as a major HoF strength. He has been up and down the cards over the years, but when put in the right positions has done well as a draw. Show v. Mayweather did a huge number, I THINK he drew well when he first came in as a fresh heel challenger, and I also think he had some solid buyrates in WCW. How much of that can be attributed to him? Who knows and that's kind of the point. I think he's worth exploring in more detail, but I also think that same "come on was any of that really because of him!" skepticism could and should be applied to other guys that are being given a pass in some quarters. Bill Dundee I am torn on whether to include Dundee in Bold or in Italics. I am by no means sure that I would vote for him, though I think his status as a booker is the sort of complimentary trait that bolsters his case. As a worker I think he was absolutely brilliant and one of the top tier of all time - but I don't think I would vote for anyone purely on work. As a draw he's tricky. No question he was a huge part of the Memphis equation, but in the period without Lawler and Dundee as the top star they did not do good business. In my mind Dundee is one of the all time great "second fiddle" wrestlers in history. I would certainly vote for him before I would vote for Sting for example. I'll put him in italics because if he were on the ballot I would likely vote for him mainly as a vote against others though to me he is ultimate borderline candidate. Honky Tonk Man Well, he held the I-C title for a long time and was in a famous match in Memphis. He also does shoots that people lol at. Still this feels like Dave just throwing a name on the list for the sake of throwing a name on the list. Jerry Brisco I don't really know enough to be sure, but nothing I've ever seen or heard about Brisco would lead me to see him as a real HoF level performer. Did he have a single run of note that would have meant anything? George Steele I know Steele was at times a good heel opponent for the big faces of the Northeast, but to me he comes across as a utility player more than anything else. A utility player with a memorable gimmick sure, but still. Nikita Koloff Sort of a "what if" type of guy because you get the feeling that had he stayed around a few more years and been able to shape his gimmick with the change of the times he might have been a star for a good long stretch. As it stands he has the memorable angles and matches with Magnum and Flair. No question he drew some big houses as a heel people wanted to see get destroyed. As a kid I loved him when he turned face, but by 92 the company was in the shitter financially. Sort of similar to DDP in the sense that if he had been able to sustain his run for even a few years longer he may have been viable as a candidate. Austin Idol Another one sort of like Nikita. I'm not sure how big a star he was in the 70's though I don't think he was a massive star at that point. In Memphis he was immensely entertaining and had his run as a great heel opponent for Lawler. Not sure if his runs in Georgia and elsewhere are enough to compliment the Memphis peak. Another "what might have been" type of guy though I think he is a great example of someone who I think is clearly a better candidate than Angle, despite the fact that most people would never see him as an HoFer. Ivan Putski Was an ethnic star of some value for Vince, but never a top tier ethnic star. He was more or less the guy the top heels worked when they weren't working the champ. Not a bad role, but not an HoF role. Terrible worker too. Tony Atlas Was at one point a huge star that was seen as the next big thing in wrestling. The problem with Atlas is that he was never the THING in wrestling or even in any territory so far as I know. He did have a very sold run in MACW, did solid with Vince Sr, and was a big star in GA. But his stardom was never taken to the next level and ultimately he feels like a massive underachiever. Jos LeDuc There is actually a thread on Jos for the HoF over at Classics. There aren't nearly enough particulars present in it for me to back him as a serious candidate, but I do admit that he comes across as the sort of journeyman main eventer that may have more good runs under his belt than you would initially assume. His strongest runs may have been in Deep South and Montreal which are two of the more underexplored territories when it comes to discussions of drawing power or even "stardom." My biggest question about LeDuc would be how much he was able to sustain any of these reigns. I'm putting him in bold largely as a guy who I think should be explored more and who I think could be explored more if people took the HoF seriously enough to actually research people.

What were Sullivan's strengths as a booker?

La Fiera and Tommy Rich are probably my two all time "I wish there were more footage from these two" guys. I'm guessing both are top thirty all time contenders but I doubt we have enough meat to justify it

Arn Anderson Arn has been on and fallen off. He was one of those guys who hung around for a while before vanishing, but I don't think anything has changed enough for voters to see him as a viable candidate. He's one of my five favorite wrestlers of all time and I would not vote for him. Brian Pillman Another one of my five favorite wrestlers of all time who I wouldn't vote for. There really is no case for Brian. From 89-92 I feel that he was a great babyface and think he should have gotten a bigger push. The Blondes are well remembered though I didn't like them. I was a mark for the Loose Cannon stuff though it ultimately went nowhere and though we may like to think Pillman was influential in the change of the attitude direction I think at best that influence was extremely marginal (I'm being generous). Quite possibly could have been an HoFer if he didn't have the horrible car wreck, but that's impossible to say. Booker T I've always thought Book was overrated. Harlem Heat was an overrated team though that wasn't his fault. Book was really good in 98 during the tv title period but not great. His first main event run was as champion of a joke promotion that was clearly dying. Once he came to the WWF I guess he had some value in the Alliance storyline, but it really wasn't a dominant role. His high point was probably the lead to Mania 19, with the payoff being HHH burying him. Well, The King Booker act was pretty great but I don't know that it had much of an impact on business. I do think if Book got on the ballot at this point he would have more support than we might think due to being associated with the MNW era, but I can't see any reason for him to be on the ballot. Kevin Sullivan My understanding was that Sullivan did not draw well in Florida with the Devil gimmick though I could be wrong. Seemed like an influential gimmick at the time, and cribbing Great Mephisto in the South was pretty cool, but I'm not sure how much credit he gets for that. Sullivan is weird in that he seemed to dance around the top of the cards in WCW at times but without really doing anything of note. Looking back I remember thinking he had a better than I would have guessed run with Vince in the 70's. I don't see him as a candidate, though I guess someone could fill in the gaps with enough to convince me I'm wrong. Jeff Jarrett No case. I liked Jeff as a worker more than most, but I would vote against him just for his role in creating and maintaining the worst wrestling company of all time - and that is arguably his high point. Diamond Dallas Page Interesting guy for the discussion. Ultimately his run was too short, but he was a very good worker at his height, who was absolutely crazy over. I've never seen a finisher over like the Diamond Cutter was during Page's peak. If I'm not mistaken he did a couple of pretty good buyrates when placed at the top of the cards though I don't know if he had a lot of value as a quarter hour ratings guy. I do know that he was consistently the most popular WCW wrestler around Charleston other than Flair. His WWE run was nothing at all of note and I don't see him as a candidate going anywhere. Still kind of interesting guy though. Koji Kanemoto Kanemoto is interesting in that during the "peak" years of junior wrestling he was thought of as one of the least guys, but he stayed around and continues to work hard and is now seen as one of the best guys from the modern period (or at least he is seen that way by me). I liked him as a worker but honestly can't see how he's made any meaningful impact and he was never a draw. Jim Duggan Well, Duggan was a pretty big time star for Watts. I don't know if he was ever a part of any record setting or super high grossing stuff to the degree that JYD and some others from that territory were. But the matches hold up, Duggan was very good in them, they are well remembered and it seems like at minimum they were doing good business. His WWF run as a utility player is a better utility player run then most because Duggan was consistently one of the most over and recognizable guys on the roster. I don't recall him ever getting a main event level feud in New York, but he certainly had memorable moments. I don't really think anyone would vote for him, but he's a less ridiculous person to put on the ballot from my perspective than some of the people that have actually been on the ballot over the years. Kamala Good challenger for Hogan during an era where a lot of people were. Extremely memorable gimmick and he may have been a semi-relevant figure elsewhere in the 80's as a result of that. Still he was not a big enough star. Los Misioneros de la Muerte I don't know near enough to say one way or the other about their strengths but they have had support from people who would know so I think they pass the "constituency" argument. Los Brazos See above, though Los Misioneros de la Muerte seems to have more people mentioning them in the occasions where this issue comes up. Pirata Morgan SLL's complete and accurate needs to get more complete as I enjoy reading it. I have not seen a ton of Pirata Morgan, but it's clear that he's a great wrestler. I have no clue how much of a star he was though. I would love for someone to fill me in on the Lucha stars in general, but Morgan in particular as I could see him being a decent candidate if he was a reasonably big star.

Tito Santana Underrated in ring talent, but he was never a draw and was never even really positioned to be a draw. I'm not even sure what his farthest position up the card was. I would guess the Valentine feud but I may be forgetting something. Either way he's not a good enough worker to make up that gap. Jun Akiyama I believe he's been on at least once and fallen off. Ultimately I think he'll go back on and I think there is a chance he will go in, but I don't think I could vote for him. Jun was a real favorite of mine and I tend to like him more as a worker than most. But he really is the ultimate "failed project" and that is something that will always hang over his head. Ron Garvin I love Garvin but I see no case at all. Really good worker during his peak, but his main event run was a blip. Not sure how much he did in other territories to fill in the gaps but I don't get the feeling that it's near enough to merit a spot on the WON ballot. Octagon Don't know enough. On the surface seems like a stretch. Hiroyoshi Tenzan To me he sort of comes across like a shittier NJPW version of Akiyama but my perspective may be skewed. I don't see him as a serious candidate in any respect. Shinjiro Otani Interesting guy to think about only because at his absolute peak he was wildly praised and a consensus type guy with everyone talking him up as a brilliant worker. There are still people who think he was the best worker in the World in 96 which was a very competitive year to contend for that mantle. The problem Ohtani has is that he was not a real innovator and his run as a great worker was very short. I'm not sure it was even three years long to be honest. And that is not enough. Otani is a fun "what if" guy though. Rayo de Jalisco Jr. I'm largely ignorant about Lucha other than the guys who I think are really good workers. Animal Hamaguchi I know he was at least a role playing type star over the years but I don't think he was ever the real top guy anywhere. John can feel free to help me here. Yoshiaki Yatsu Yatsu is interesting in general in that he was a really great worker in his prime, great tag worker and was a part of some hot feuds and promotional runs. The problem is I'm not sure he was ever close enough to the top. Not sure his post-AJPW really helps though I know some think his post-AJPW work was good. I am tempted to say "put him on the ballot" because I just like Yatsu and would like to see him on the ballot But I can't say that I would vote for him and I'm not sure all that much could be learned. Umanosuke Ueda I know his look was kind of fresh for Japan and he was at least a nominally important figure because of that. He also has that great spot from the elimination tag in 86. That's not much to build a candidacy on. Was Ueda ever a serious draw? Mascara Ano 2000 No idea. Kuniaki Kobayashi I like him as a worker a good deal, but as first wave juniors go he was not as influential as others and did not make as much of an impact down the road either. I'm not even sure he's as good a candidate as Psicosis to take an example from a different era.

In this thread I have made favorable arguments for the Ultimate Warrior that were promptly refuted. Just Saying

I don't know what order Jesse enters my head, but this idea that it was all Hogan and Vince and everyone else was window dressing is far too dismissive. Hell, Hogan wasn't even on TV when I became a wrestling fan. He was off hiding under a rock somewhere. You can't have much of a show with just Hogan and Vince. The WWF's success stemmed from Hogan and Vince + the product. Jesse fronted the product and played a big part in getting it over. I wouldn't say he was as synonymous with WWF as Russell was with Memphis or Ross with WCW because the WWF was bigger than those two companies. Mind you, being synonymous with a company doesn't necessarily make you good. Russell was a great commentator and Ross was an annoying prick who was worse at getting people over than Jesse if you ask me. How was Hart's music production influential? Should we put Rick Derringer in the HOF? How about James Alan Johnston? I didn't say being synonymous made you good. I said that is one thing the others have that Jesse in my mind does not have. I disagree that it was just Hogan and Vince and I'm not beating the drum for that argument, just as I'm not beating the drum for Hart as an HoFer due to his music despite your deliberate attempts to deflate my argument for Hart to that level.

Jesse was synonymous with a major boom period for the WWF not only nationally but internationally as Jerry and Jerome and I can attest to. It's stupid to compare him with what Russell did regionally. Russell would have flopped in the WWF just like he didn't pan out in WCW. The same thing happened to Ross the first time he was in the WWF and Solie when he worked for the NWA yet no-one holds these fish out of water periods against them. Besides, they were all frontmen and the straight guy. It makes more sense to compare those guys with Monsoon. People are massively underrating how difficult it is to be a good commentator. There simply haven't been that many in the history of professional wrestling. There's also a bit of favouritism going on. Jimmy Hart sucked after leaving Memphis yet people are trying to find extra reasons for him to go in like music production. When you think of the 80's boom period when does Jesse enter your head? First? Second? Third? Fourth? I actually agree with you guys a great deal on his quality as a color guy, but he would be well down the list of guys I think of when I think of that era. Not even sure he would enter my top ten. That may be just me personally. But there is no way in hell a guy that far down the list enters into the "synonymous category." Conversely when I think of Memphis wrestling I think of Lance Russell pretty much immediately. When I think of early era WCW I grew up on I think of Ross. I just don't see how Ventura fits into that discussion. I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Hart remark is other than really shitty trolling veiled in making a point. Hart's music production was pretty clearly at least as influential as Jesse wearing boas or saying quirky things from the booth. You don't need that to make a case for Hart though. You just need Memphis, where as I noted he drew more money than Ventura ever did in his life.

Look at the announers in. Jesse's run was far shorter. He is not synonomous with a name or brand the way the others are. When Jesse left there may have been a drop in quality, but it didn't feel like a different show. Compare that to Memphis without Lance or even the way the WWE comes across without Ross. There are wrestlers who drew big for periods longer than Jess's entire run as a heel commentator that are scoffed at as candidates. Even if yiu think he has a case to suggest there is no reason for him not to be in is a massive stretch

Nope but Meltzer included him on one of these polls. I'll get to my thoughts on that crop soon.

I wouldn't doubt that Mulligan was a better draw in MACW though I'm not sure it would be by a wide margin. There are plenty of Valentine results available online and it was my surprise at seeing how strongly he appears to have been booked that led to me to pushing him a little here. His time in and out of the the WWF from 79-85 is underrated too.

Paul Orndorff He's been on the ballot before and fallen off. I think he's an interesting case really because he was an excellent challenger for Hogan and I think there is at least some perfunctory evidence to support the notion that he was a draw elsewhere. Having said that I don't see him as someone with a really broad constituency of support, nor do I see him as someone whom we know a lot more about now than we did before. Greg Valentine Valentine is a good example to me of someone that seems worse when you first think about him, but stepping back I think he is the sort of guy who deserves a much more thorough examination. When running through the results for Patera I was somewhat surprised to see how often Greg came up as a headliner or semi-headliner in Mid-Atlantic and the WWWF. He was brought in multiple times as a Backlund opponent over a span of six years, they had very strong chemistry together and they made good money opposite each other. I would like to flesh out more of the MACW years but the Wahoo and Piper feuds were money makers and that seems like the tip of the iceberg. His biggest weakness is his post-prime and the relative brevity of his peak as a star, but he was a good worker through early 1990, wish actually gives him a solid run as quality worker. I'd also be curious to see if the Tito feud was a draw because it sure got great heat from the live crowds. Anyhow I think Valentine is worth a very close investigation and a spot on the ballot. Kevin Von Erich As a unit with Kerry and David under RnR HoF rules I would strongly consider him. Outside of that unit he doesn't have the career highs of David let alone Kerry. John Tenta Well apparently the Earthquake/Hogan SummerSlam match drew really well. Other than that he was involved in some cool angles but I can't see him anywhere near the HoF. Tommy Rich I think it is very difficult to argue against him being on the ballot. Was a major star in the early 80's in Georgia where he drew so much money that the company effectively went national and opened up a second office hundreds of miles to the North. The feud with Buzz Sawyer is legendary of course, but Rich drew against a variety of people during this period. In many ways he was the first national tv wrestling star of the modern era. His run as a heel in Memphis was brilliant as well and did good business too from memory. We don't have nearly as much of Rich's peak years on tape which is a shame because what we have indicates that he was a great Southern worker both as a face and a heel. His weakness is that he Flared out dramatically after seven or eight years, but he was still a good worker in his post-prime and I think the value of his peak is more than most would initially assume. I would almost certainly vote for Rich were he on the ballot. Ken Patera Was on the ballot once and fell off but that was way back around 98 or so IIRC. Obviously I've laid out a big case for Patera elsewhere but it is worth noting that he main evented v. Billy Graham, Andre, Watts, Dusty, Pedro, Backlund, Bruno, Wahoo, Lawler, Rich, Steamboat, Atlas, and a shitload of people I'm forgetting. The bulk of these main events were programs that went around the horn. He consistently main evented the biggest buildings in the biggest towns in wrestling including St. Paul, Chicago, St. Louis, Greensboro, Atlanta, Memphis, Toronto, Montreal, New York, Philly, Boston, et, et. He was in great demand at his peak and from the moment of his debut in late 72 through his jailing in the Summer of 85 he was a consistent semi-main/main event guy everywhere he went. His post-prime was weak, but relatively short as he only had a brief couple of years a as a mid-carder in the WWF after getting out of prison, a small AWA run and was then effectively off the scene. I think Patera's 12 1/2 year run is a very strong run, where he was clearly one of the top heels in the business and a guy who was seen as a money maker anywhere he went. I would vote for him. Badnews Allen Badnews is interesting because while he was a really big deal in Stampede he did a shitload to kill hurt the territory as well. Since his Stampede run is by far his biggest strength I don't see how he could be argued for. David Von Erich See Kevin. King Kong Bundy A very underrated big man, but I don't know how consistent a draw he was and I certainly don't think he has a big enough body of work in that respect to justify him being in the HoF, nor do I think there are a ton of people who would disagree. John Studd Studd actually seems like a really weak candidate from the perspective that his look and size should have made him a much better drawing card than he was. To my knowledge he was never a special attraction draw and only really worked opposite Andre. I could be forgetting something, but that's sort of the point. Very forgettable "big man" and one of the all time worst in the ring. Fishman Don't know enough. Dory Dixon What's the argument here? The little bit I know about Dixon makes him seem like a flash in the pan at best.

Fink isn't a backstage candidate. I have no qualms with him getting in as he is recognized at the best at what he did. But that's not a real strength for him

Iron Sheik I like Sheik in the ring better than most but I can't see a legit argument for him. I'm not sure he was ever a draw outside of the Slaughter feud. For stereotypical heels from that part of the World Adnan is the better candidate. Larry Zbyszko Looking back Larry's feud with Bruno really did do MASSIVE business. I also like Larry more as a worker than most anyone else does. But I don't think he's an all time great in the ring, and he really lacks any other blockbuster feud or run. In fact the other major pushes of his career that come to mind were all business low points for companies (dying days AWA, DA era WCW). Don Muraco I just don't see it. I don't think the scope of his stardom is enough. I've seen people make the point that he could have been more, but I don't think that means anything in this argument and I generally agree with John that he was lazy as piss a lot of the time. Was a part of some very memorable moments, had some great matches with Backlund, but i don't see it. Peter Maivia Ultimately I would want more info, but it seems like a stretch. Was he a serious draw in Hawaii or San Fran? He did better for Vince than is sometimes remembered as he comes across as a tier above the Strongbow/Putski level when talking ethnic babyfaces, though obviously not on the Pedro/Bruno tier either. Rocky Johnson No. Had a fine mid-level career, but I don't know of anywhere where he made a serious long term effect on business. Bob Orton Jr. Is there any record of Orton being a draw? Orton is a better worker than is remembered IMO, but I don't think he was ever a guy known for making money. Being Piper's sidekick is a pretty trivial "plus." Stan Stasiak Well he held the WWWF title. Um. Other than that.... Jerry Blackwell I think my feelings on him are well known Should note that while I included him italics, I could be convinced that he doesn't belong in the HoF, though I lean toward thinking he does. Cyclone Negro Don't know enough. Bob Roop What is the argument here? For guys with tough guy rep is he as good a candidate as Meng? Victor Rivera I know he worked some pretty big name guys in feuds, but nothing else I know seems to indicate that he is more than a surface level candidate. Blackjack Lanza I would think that Mulligan is a better candidate than Lanza, and Mulligan was someone I didn't go to bat for.

I think you are showing your ignorance of Memphis wrestling here. I have no problem considering Gene or Fink as candidates though I'm largely indifferent to either. Ventura and Monsoon drew less money as workers than Hart did as a manager - combined. Hart's music videos/music innovations were more important than any market innovations we would like to pretend Jesse or Gorilla had. I am open to listening to arguments for anyone but Jimmy destroys them as candidates.

I think virtually everyone agrees that Jimmy Hart is an obvious pick that somehow got flubbed out of the gate and in an even more odd situation was never noticed as being MIA until a couple of months back. To answer John's question to me this thread has a few functions 1. It's just fun to talk about the careers of various guys. 2. It's interesting to run down the list of people being suggested to see how many of them even border on being serious candidates 3. It's an exercise in trying to find where that line is. I don't have an answer for it. In general I think people should not go on the ballot unless they either have a constituency that you can assume would support them or they are someone who deserves to be scrutinized more closely. Some would argue that scrutinizing people more closely should be what you do to get someone on the ballot and not vice versa. In principle I agree but with something like wrestling I think it is easier to make a case for someone on the ballot/do the leg work to see where they do or don't stand than it is to try and force them into the discussion first using the data. That could just be an error in my perception. The only other reason I would argue for including people on the ballot is as pure reference points to sort of expose the weaknesses of others. This is purely self serving on my part, but to me the career of Edge looks less like an HoF career sitting next to the career of Lex Luger's than it does if you isolate it and read it through the standard WON talking point prism. Again this may be an error in my perception.

97 also suffered from Shawn's bailing in the months building to the show. In defense of Warrior (I can't believe I'm saying that), WM VI did have the second or third biggest attendance figure in WWE history up until that point. Maybe...but Shawn couldn't draw flies to shit during his title run in 96, so I'm not sure if he would have made much of a difference. Maybe for a rematch with Hart, but who knows. Hogan vs Warrior was a very appealing match at a time when face vs face matches happened once in a blue moon, especially in the main event scene. Warrior was super over and *seemed* like he would be a draw, but he wasn't. I wonder if part of the problem was Hogan setting the bar so high. I've bashed Warrior a lot over the years myself, but I'll admit he was a part of quite a few memorable matches and angles, at least between 88 and 91/92. I think it's clear that Shawn was a very weak draw as champion, but I doubt seriously Mania would have bombed as much if he was on the card. Impossible to say of course but that was a really bad number.

Steiner Brothers They've been on the ballot at least once, possibly twice, and have fallen off. I am marks for them despite the fact that I don't think they were really that great an in ring team. I also think they were kind of unique in that they were a team that felt like a unit that was equal to the top tier guys (Flair, Luger, Sting). Still I would NEVER vote for them and apparently not that many people did when they were on the ballot before. Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard How long were they really a team? I like the team a lot, they had some great matches, they complimented each other well and I'm sure if you went back they headlined some pretty strong shows. But they were in no way influential and I'm not sure they even have four years as a regular team. You'd have to be extremely influential, great in the ring and a great draw to get my vote as a singles worker based on less than four years. Dudleys Pretty sure they've been on and fell off too. Not an advocate but I actually think they are slightly better candidates than in initially thought. They were pretty much the top act in ECW for close to two years and were super over/big part of the over all package of the WWF boom once they came over. Mind you I would never vote for them and I now think they are just pretty bad candidates as opposed to laughable candidates. But I still struggle to see any argument for them. Afa & Sika Unquestionably had value as supporting player heels in the WWWF and they have the iconic chairshot moment that people will always remember. Still I'm not sure they meant any more or less than Ivan Putski and I don't see Ivan Putski as a serious candidate for the hall of the very good, let alone the hall of fame. The Sheepherders Which unit? Herders gimmick was fairly hot in Portland and Mid-South, but it was not sustained enough either place and again you have the question of what unit you are considering. Black Gordman & Great Goliath I'm fairly ignorant, but another one that has been on and fallen off. My understanding is that they were something of a draw though, so if someone could point to a string of positives and push it they are probably more deserving of another chance than a lot of other more famous teams. Jimmy & Johnny Valiant I'd have to go back and look at the numbers. The story is that they were a strong drawing team up North though I have no clue how much of that is bullshit or not. Still with teams the issue of "how long" is really important to me in terms of building a solid case. Greg Gagne & Jim Brunzell I'm not a hundred percent positive that I would vote for Greg and Brunzell, but excluding the RnR's and maybe the Fabs they are the only team I would strongly consider. If you subtract for time off as a unit, tagged for close to nine years, which is more than the Midnights, though maybe a bit less than the RnR's. They were very solid draws, that topped a whole lot of strong drawing shows. They did this against a wide variety of opposition, starting in the mid-70's and bleeding into the mid-80's. Also unlike with the RnR's and Midnights there entire run as draws was in the big arena's around the loop as the AWA did not run secondary house shows that often. They were a very good in ring team with a high quality matches that hold up very well. The big negatives against them is that they were never stars anywhere else other than the AWA and they were not influential at all. I could see how some people would keep them out because of that, but when you look at their record as drawing cards it is hard to say they don't make up some of the ground they lose on those fronts. Brute Bernard & Skull Murphy Don't know enough, though Brute Bernard is still well regarded in my home town with the old timers. The Interns Heard some great things in passing, but don't know nearly enough. Rip Hawk & Swede Hanson Were a big time tag team, in a tag team territory. They were definitely positioned to draw in the Carolinas and did draw in the Carolinas they I don't know how well. Seems weird to even think of them without the Scott Brothers also being considered and honestly I don't know enough for sure to feel safe arguing for them seriously, though they do intrigue me. The Gallagher Brothers Don't know enough.

97 also suffered from Shawn's bailing in the months building to the show. In defense of Warrior (I can't believe I'm saying that), WM VI did have the second or third biggest attendance figure in WWE history up until that point.

Great Sasuke I'm not sure how confident I am about him on the ballot, but as a worker I think he was really strong during his peak. He was the centerpiece of a promotion that seems to have been fairly successful and is someone people rightfully associate with the "big" era of junior heavyweight wrestling internationally. It's funny to think that if he had gotten over in the WWF as intended he maybe could have been a bigger star but then there is no reason to believe Vince was ever going to give a fuck about that division. I'm really indifferent to the notion of Sasuke as a candidate and can't see myself ever voting for him but it seems wrong for Ultimo and Hamada (to be fair I'd vote for Hamada) to get a crack at the ballot and not him. Maybe that's just a perception thing. Kevin Nash I actually like the idea of Nash on the ballot on some level because I think it exposes the poverty of the candidate class at this point as Loss talked about. On the other hand who is his constituency? He drew poorly as WWE champion and while The Outsiders run was big, most of that was piggybacking on the Hogan heel turn. Beyond that he really has no serious strengths. The weaknesses are obvious. Ken Shamrock No. Just no. Hiro Matsuda Was hero a draw? I don't know. I know he trained some big stars, but I'm not someone who sees that as a particularly important criteria. Akira Taue I'd vote for Taue. I can see the argument against him as the least of the workers of the AJPW big four and the least of them in stardom. Having said that they are called the four pillars for a reason. I am someone who believed HHH got in in large part because a lot of people couldn't envision an HoF with Rock, Austin and Foley in and not HHH EVEN THOUGH they acknowledged that HHH was a distant fourth behind those guys. The point is you can not write a history of a hugely successful period of AJPW wrestling without Taue coming up multiple times. When you consider the fact that he was also a great worker in my view (no worse than "very good" for a long time), was a key part of many of the best matches of all time, and was clearly successful when positioned at or near the top of the card for a several year stretch I think he has more positives than negatives. Great Kabuki First to get over a gimmick that was copied a bunch? Maybe? Is there any other obvious strength I'm not seeing? Was he ever a draw? Yoshiaki Fujiwara My view is that if you are a legit contender for the best worker of a certain style (shoot style, junior heavyweight, best brawler, et) you probably at least merit consideration. If you have an increasing number of people talking about you as an all time great in the ring, you get more consideration. If you have a fair number of people that consider you one of the absolute top tier ever in the ring, plus you were influential in developing a style of wrestling, plus you played a role in some of the best matches of all time, plus you were at least somewhat involved in a hugely successful period of business, et, et. Well yeah I think he should be in the HoF. He's not a "holy fuck this guy is so obvious it's ridiculous!" candidate, and I'm not a fan of the picking from the bottom rung to compare, but does anyone think Fujiwara is a worse candidate than Saito, Funaki or Hase? I think Fujiwara is clearly a better candidate than all of those guys, even if he's not on the level of Inoki or Baba. Bearcat Wright I know he was somewhat importantly historically and depending on who you ask may have been the first black World heavyweight champion. I've heard and seen some indication that he was something of a box office draw, but I've never seen or heard anything to suggest he was near the level of someone like Bobo who I have seen him compared to in the past. Would need more persuasion. Minoru Suzuki I'm being short here because I don't see the argument and would like to see someone explain why he would even appear in a poll like this. Clearly I'm missing something. Rusher Kimura I really want someone to expand on Rusher for me because I don't know if he was much of a draw. But he was the top star in IWE for a long time, he was something of an international star and he supposedly got over the "death match" concept in Japan by importing Cage Matches (though I think that is a big stretch). Still as a guy who was a top star in a fairly long lasting promotion I would error on the side of inclusion. Toyonobori Did he draw in LA? Going off memory his run seemed really short, but he did fill the gap between Rikidozan and Inoki/Baba IIRC. I would need more figures but it seems like he SHOULD be on the ballot. Seems like an important enough figure in Japanese wrestling history where it would be wrong to treat him like an entity that isn't even worth the thought. Michiaki Yoshimura My understanding is that he was a second fiddle type to Toyonobori after Rikidozan's death but I could be dead wrong. Does anyone know the details here?

More results --Which of these guys most deserves to be on the Hall of Fame ballot? Chief Jay Strongbow 25.2% Haystacks Calhoun 18.6% Boris Malenko 14.9% Gino Hernandez 13.8% David Shults 6.1% Dino Bravo 5.8% Leo Nomellini 4.8% Lonnie Mayne 4.5% Primo Carnera 3.7% Bugsy McGraw 1.3% Bull Ramos 1.1% Dean Ho 0.3% --Which of these guys deserves the most to be on the Hall of Fame ballot? Larry Hennig 34.0% The Spoiler Don Jardine 26.6% Bob Orton Sr. 14.8% Wild Bull Curry 6.3% Cowboy Bob Ellis 4.1% Luther Lindsay 3.6% Lord James Blears 3.3% Ilio DiPaolo 2.4% Hardboiled Haggerty 1.8% Missouri Mauler 1.5% Hans Mortier 1.5% Ron Etchison 0.3% --Which of these names deserves the most to be on the Hall of Fame ballot? Sputnik Monroe 36.3% Sweet Daddy Siki 14.6% Waldo Von Erich 9.5% George Scott 9.1% Mike DiBiase 7.3% Sailor Art Thomas 5.5% Pampero Firpo 5.5% Ricky Romero 3.4% Buddy Colt 3.4% Dutch Savage 2.7% Sammy Steamboat 1.5% Duke Keomuka 1.2% -- Which of these names most deserves a Hall of Fame ballot spot? J.J. Dillon 44.3% Bob Armstrong 27.1% Johnny Weaver 7.5% Billy Red Lyons 7.3% Yukon Eric 3.7% Miguel Perez 3.2% Ron Fuller 2.6% Ed Francis 1.3% Bobby Managoff 1.1% Count Billy Varga 0.8% Ron Miller 0.6% Don Eagle 0.3% Which of these names most deserves a Hall of Fame ballot spot? Booker T 26.3% Dr. Jerry Graham 16.4% Kane 10.5% Kyoko Inoue 9.9% Christian 9.7% Thunderbolt Patterson 8.7% John Bradshaw Layfield 6.7% Tommy Dreamer 5.6% Don Curtis 2.9% Medico Asesino 1.5% Ricky Romero 1.0% Blackie Guzman 0.4% Thanks for this. I'm gonna go back and keep them in order that they were posted in the other thread with my responses, but please keep them coming!

I don't mind all this talk, and I'll get to Matt's point about Jesse vis a vis Buddy later (I don't think it's close to a favorable comp for Jesse), but I should not that that's not really the point of this thread. This thread was created as a result of the polls Meltzer is running at the Observer site on candidates. Apparently he's run another one today since Dreamer's name has popped up and I would like people to dump any new ones in this thread.

Understand that I'm not advocating him as a HOF candidate, but I do think he was more of a star than he sometimes gets acknowledged as. Actually I've been meaning to ask you - what AWA candidates do you think should at least be on the ballot that aren't? Obviously I think Patera, Blackwell, The High Flyers and Martel should all be on the ballot if nothing else. Do you agree with those names? Am I missing anyone obvious?

Jake Roberts I like the idea of Jake on the ballot even though I wouldn't vote for him because he's a good barometer. Jake to me is one of the all time greats at getting over angles. I can't think of a single non-main eventer who has as many memorable angles as Jake's. Jake is STILL a name casual fans remember and it's not just the gimmick. People remember the Arrongance angle/blindfold match, depantsing Rude, DDTing STeamboat on the floor, Damien being killed by Earthquake, Jake's WCW debut, the snakebite angle with Savage, et. His brand is something people remember far more than many main eventers. I know he was involved with some hot angles in Mexico in the 90's though I have no clue to what extent he was a hanger on. In a way I almost seem as a bulwark candidate in the sense that I can't imagine voting for him, but he would be a good tool to point to and say "this guy you support is better than Jake how?" Barry Windham I doubt I would vote for Barry unless there came a deluge of guys going in based purely on ring work at which point the whole "evolving standards" thing Loss is bemoaning means Barry would become a really viable candidate. Still I think anyone who was as good as Barry should at least be given a serious consideration. I would be interested to see if he had any value to the Florida promotion as a draw. Based on the footage we have he was a strong worker from 81-93, with some extremely high peaks. One of the all time great tag workers and widely regarded as one of the great natural talents of all time. It's not uncommon to run into people who think Windham at his best was the most gifted U.S. worker of his era. If I was going to vote for someone based purely on work Barry would be one of the first people I would consider. Rick Rude I am a huge Rude fan but he's basically a lesser version of the Jake Roberts candidacy. Remembered but not as well remembered as Jake and though his in ring peak was excellent and better than Jake's it lasted all of one year. Every time he was given the top belt in a company it bombed and his I-C title run is nowhere near enough to offset that. Davey Boy Smith I like Davey as a worker more than most, but he never gained traction as a main event player and was never even a consistent secondary player that stood out of the pack. I'm actually struggling to think of a clear plus for DBS as a candidate. Lex Luger I actually want to go back and look at Luger's career more, but I think a ballot with room for Sting should have room for Luger. Luger was a better draw opposite Flair than Sting and in fact was a very strong drawing opponent for Flair in general. As with Rude he has one peak year that really jumps out at you (89), but he also had some really strong years on the front and back end of that. The WWF run was a bust, but he came back to WCW and really got over the Sting angle, popped some big ratings (pretty sure his Nitro title run did a strong number), et. Can't remember if he was a solid part of any buyrates or not, but he doesn't have a minus as big as Sting's bust as the "company ace" in the early 90's. Again I wouldn't vote for him but I see practical value in having him on the ballot. Then again I don't think many of the voters compare guys the way I do. Scott Hall I think Hall's Ladder Matches and NWO had a better impact on the sport than he is sometimes remembered but he is a clear peg down from someone I would feel comfortable putting on the ballot. Bam Bam Bigelow I don't see a case. Really feels like an underachiever in just about every respect. The one major plus is headlining Mania v. LT and the fact that isn't something that even immediately jumps out at you. Adrian Adonis Adonis is interesting in that he has journeyman cred and was a player a lot of different places, but he was never around any place long enough to get a real feel for his strengths as a draw. From memory Flyers v. East-West and Backlund v. Adonis did draw well. Adonis was very good in Portland in 79 though he wasn't over to the degree Martel would be in 80, let alone Piper or Rose. Not sure if he ever did any real business in Southwest and he and Murdoch were in NJPW during a business down turn IIRC. Adonis would have to be a super worker to get in and while I think he was a very good worker I don't think he was THAT good a worker. Some people have told me he is a better candidate than Blackwell but I don't see it. I could be swayed on him though. Yokozuna Has he ever been on the ballot? I'm actually a really big fan of Yoko's and would love to be able to formulate a strong case for him, but I don't see it. He did headline two Mania's, was a very good worker for a guy his size, and his tag team with Owen was super underrated. But that's not enough. Sid Vicious Well he did headline two dome shows that drew in excess of 60k (not paid, but still) Big Bossman Can't see it. A memorable gimmick, and I think his series with Hogan may have done good business, but what else does he have going for him? Seems like a huge stretch. Scott Norton Well he did headline the second biggest drawing card in wrestling history In all seriousness I'd be interested to see how much value he had as a draw to NJPW. I don't think there is anyway in hell he had HoF level drawing power, but I'm curious as to if he was booked like a gajin threat consistently. I honestly don't remember.

I'm gonna go back and look at the 70's results on the Baron. I trust your judgment but want to see what the picture says.