Dylan Waco

I was going to try to go to Lawler v. Funk last year in the New York. I missed it because of circumstances beyond my control and have been kicking myself ever since

If you've seen Memphis there is really no reason to not include Hart in the top ten other than general bias/hatred for the man. Realistically I struggle to see any argument for him outside of the top five, and he is certainly no worse than a number one contender. Sherri fits my definition of a manager and would be an easy top ten pick. I'd be interested to see if Khawk thinks that Adnan should be considered a manager.

Booker T Already covered. Why did Dave include him twice? Dr. Jerry Graham Definitely has a group of people out there who would support him. Was a huge star New York both teaming with Eddie and on his own where he drew big houses v. Buddy Rogers. Was also one of the participants in the match that touched off the infamous riot in MSG. Also was a great opponent for Bruno. I've heard that he was a draw in Georgia and Canada as well but don't know the details. I'm pretty close to saying he should be in. Kane Laughable candidate. Loss made a point about Show I don't disagree with, but with Show I like the idea of him on the ballot because it is a good reference point for guys like Edge, Batista, et. For Kane I don't know what the plus would be. He's been around for a long time and been near the top for most of that period. Was never the top guy, even when he managed to hold the World title. Not sure he was ever even a top five guy in the WWE for any length of time. There are periods where he wouldn't crack a top ten. Kyoko Inoue I think she probably merits a look on the ballot. I've soured on Joshi over the years, but she was always a favorite of Joshi fans. In some ways I think she has aged better than others. She was clearly one of the better workers of that generation and a big enough star in her own right. Given how long it took Aja to get in I can't imagine Kyoko ever getting in though. And I doubt I'd ever vote for her. Christian Really doesn't have a serious argument at all. Very consistent in ring performer with a year and a half peak that was exceptionally high. I guess you can give him some credit for the EC v. Dudz v. Hardyz feud but that was always a secondary to the top stuff from that period. Really bombed hard v. Orton this year when finally given a main event run. I'd say Owen Hart would be a better candidate and Owen is the weakest guy currently on the ballot. Thunderbolt Patterson At his peak was really hot and one of the more unique promo guys in wrestling. Definitely moved a lot of tickets over the years even in he sucked in the ring. The problem is his peak run was short and he always sabotaged himself. John Bradshaw Layfield Brief run as a main eventer in which he was not a real draw. Had some very good matches and was an extremely enjoyable character, but there a multitude of people who would be better candidates. Tommy Dreamer Is this a joke? Don Curtis Another huge tag team star, though Curtis and Lewin were a super notable tag team that has long been highly touted. I'd be interested to see how much he did as a singles star. Certainly has the "name" recognition that makes you consider him someone of value, but I'm largely ignorant of the particulars. Medico Asesino I'm lucha novice, but this makes an interesting case http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dico_Asesino Ricky Romero Romero was covered already too. Blackie Guzman Don't know enough.

J.J. Dillon Was positioned as a main eventer in Amarillo and the Maritimes, but wouldn't have been a top five guy in the history of either territory. I always liked him as the Horseman manager but I doubt that he's a top ten manager of all time. Backstage stuff may have been more significant than I know but he'd have to have had a massive presence to be an HoFer based on that. Bob Armstrong Somewhat important regional star, but how important? Seems like most of his success came in Georgia and Bama but I don't think he was ever a consistent top tier guy in Georgia back when that really would have meant something. I am a fan, but it seems like a reach. Johnny Weaver Anther one of those guys that is still a huge name around the area I am from. Probably had his biggest success as a tag star though in the Mid-Atlantic area that effectively made you a main event star in his heyday. Was positioned to draw for a good long haul and seems to have been successful though I'm not sure there was ever a period where he was the definitive star. I'm on he fence about Weaver actually as a candidate as his bio is impressive but doesn't seem quite impressive enough, but years of talking to wrestling fans around here makes him seem like a shoe in. Billy Red Lyons Another guy that was primarily a major tag team star. He had success in a variety of promotions as a tag worker, but if you look at where and with who he almost always feels like the "other" guy in the tag team. Yukon Eric Most famous because Kowalski took off his ear. I actually have no clue what his major strengths would be. Miguel Perez He and Rocca were of course massively successful draws at MSG. I don't know how well they did around that loop. I would be interested to find out more details about him. Ron Fuller Musgrave has talked about how he thinks the Cormier's might have a case as a family and I've said the same thing about the Von Erichs. I sort of feel the same way about the Welch/Fullers. I know a the peak of Fuller's territory it did very good business but from memory it collapsed hard. Don't see him as a strong candidate as a wrestler. The whole family is a different story. Ed Francis Not sure how successful he was as a wrestler. I do know that he was something of a successful promoter for a while in Hawaii. That is an unexplored region and probably deserves a closer look as a rule. While looking through Patera results it was clear he had some massive cards there and it developed a rep with a lot of folks as a good place to work. No clue what kind of houses they were doing, but I would guess he had a near entertainment monopoly on the island and in order to pay the costs of flying in talent he couldn't have been just scraping by. Deserves more consideration, though I'm not sure I can see a place for him on the ballot when Jarrett, Owen, et. can't get in. Bobby Managoff Don't know enough. Count Billy Varga I've heard he was a good hand and one of the early great light heavyweights. No clue if he was a draw or had any value beyond that. Ron Miller Fairly big star in Australia. Was he involved in promotion down there? Seems like a major leap otherwise. Don Eagle Don't know nearly enough.

I cannot imagine TNA being my first live wrestling show

Who did they tout for wrestler of the year?

That ECW show did not have Crazy/Tajiri on it. It had Crazy v. Hidaka and Tajiri v. Super Calo. It was a great show.

I don't hold the traveling gimmick against Abby or anyone else. But I wouldn't call a person who did that more "consistent" as a draw than a guy who was the ace in a promotion with a weekly loop and was setting records around the horn for multiple years. The one exception would probably be Andre, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Abby popped houses the way Andre could and did. Edit: More importantly Abby is already in. JYD has NEVER been on the ballot.

Point to the hot run where Abby was consistently drawing big houses, big gates, et. night after night. Maybe it exists and I don't know about it. I know he was a big draw in Stampede, but Stampede on it's best day was laughable by comparison to JYD led Watts. When I talk about consistency I'm talking about a guy who day in and day out - week in and week out was drawing tangibly to the point where it can't be seriously disputed or argued away. JYD was doing this and in a big way for no less than four years. If Abby was doing anything comparable I'd love to hear about it.

Actually I would be SHOCKED if JYD was a more consistent draw than JYD and I am a HUGE Abby mark. I do agree that he gets slighted though.

If you are talking biggest black stars I get the feeling Ladd might be first though I could be wrong. What is interesting to me about JYD is that he was the ANCHOR of a promotion and a Southern promotion at that. Then he went on to be one of the stronger compliments to Hogan nationally for Vince in the early expansion days. From 80-87 or so he had pretty immense value. I'd be interested to see if he drew at all for Stampede too, though I'm not sure those records exist. Thinking about it off the cuff I wonder if there isn't a case for JYD as a top three draw of the 80's in the U.S. Certainly seems like there is a good case for top five at minimum.

I don't even like Chikara, but Quack is a totally reasonable pick for promoter of the year.

Of course it's a value call, but there is an extent to where it is really just arguing to argue. I mean I could argue that Hack Myers was the greatest wrestler of all time and point to random stuff and it would still be my view and you couldn't prove it wrong...but I'd be considered crazy for it. Charisma matters if it is part of the overall package that is successful. Same with wrestling. For the record I doubt I would vote for DK. Certainly would no vote for him over Okerland

How does one measure successful output of "charisma?" Ratings, merch sold, tickets sold, sustained crowd reactions. Those largely aren't subjective. Absent that "charisma" doesn't mean anything just like being a good ring mechanic means little if you don't have the matches and performances to back it up.

Obama is Paul Heyman

Sputnik Monroe I'd like to see him on the ballot. If the desegregation stories are even half true it is something fairly major even though I'm unsure as to how much it influenced the rest of the South. Memphis Heat seems to suggest that he and Billy Wicks did great business opposite each other. Not sure how long his run was he is a name in history that seems like it is worth closer review. Sweet Daddy Siki He helped train Edge which is a big negative in my book Major star in Toronto and one of the more recognizable looking guys in wrestling. I am a fan, but I don't know that he is a serious candidate. puropotsy may know more. Waldo Von Erich Obviously was a heel star. Not sure he was even a top three guy with a Nazi gimmick. Think he was one of many good opponents for Bruno, but I never got the feeling he was a stand alone star or even the sort of touring heel that was guaranteed money against a variety of aces. George Scott Feels like he should be on the ballot. I have heard people arguing that his booking wasn't really that successful and others argue that it was masterful and super important. The Scott Brothers were a major tag team that worked a lot of places and drew money here in the Carolinas. I think if you combine both things he should at least get a crack at the ballot. Mike DiBiase Was he ever THAT big a star? IIRC he feuded some with Dory Sr. in Amarillo and I know he wasn't a cellar dweller, but he's not someone that comes up a lot when you hear about people from that era. Sailor Art Thomas Pretty big star in the early 60's. Not sure how big a deal he was in relation to other black stars of the era. Pampero Firpo Another guy who had one of the early wild man gimmicks. Not sure he was ever a draw of any note anywhere, nor am I aware of a period where he was a consistent top guy for a territory. Possibly Detroit? Ricky Romero The lead non-Funk star of the Amarillo territory. Perhaps as large a star as the Funk's at certain points and in certain towns. I would need some real data to look at and I don't know how long his run was. But he is someone that might be worth digging into at least. Buddy Colt Major heel star for the Funk's and also allegedly one of the better drawing cards in the history of Central States. He was also a star in Florida and Georgia though I think his status as a main eventer in those territories may have been overstated by some after his death. I'm not averse to Colt if his biggest fans are right about him being a big draw, but I would need numbers to prove it. Dutch Savage Second biggest draw in Pacific Northwest history after Buddy Rose. Was pretty much the face of the company that handed off to Buddy in 77. Not sure how well regarded he was in the ring, but he was also a star in Vancover when that meant something. I could be convinced he deserves consideration, though I'm not sure there are any numbers from Owen's territory. Sammy Steamboat I know he was a major star in Hawaii. Not much else. I've heard he was overrated as a performer by some people over the years, but I never really knew anyone who rated him. Duke Keomuka Certainly a major name in Texas. I don't know how successful he was elsewhere, but any time you talk about Texas history he seems to come up. Kind of like Romero in that he is at least worth digging deeper into.

Larry Hennig I actually remember being surprised going through the AWA results that Hennig wasn't as major a star as I was expecting. He definitely was a star of some magnitude, but I don't think he was ever even one of the top four guys in the promotion (certainly not for any length of time). Maybe khawk can call bullshit here. The Spoiler Don Jardine I can't say that I know enough to guarantee I would vote for Jardine, but he absolutely seems like he should be on the ballot, and I think he's got enough of a case where I would learn more in the direction of yes than no. Was a semi-main or main event star in multiple territories for over a decade. I'm not sure when his hottest period was or where it was but he was certainly huge in Texas, a star in the AWA (and the Super D's did draw), and a big deal in Mid-Atlantic. He also had some very notable runs in New York where he was very over as a heel. Plus I'm pretty sure he was a star in LA early on (Wiki check! He was). To be honest it seems weird to me that he's never been on the ballot. Bob Orton Sr. Had some effective runs as a singles star, but most of his big time success came in tag teams with other bigger stars. It seems wrong to say that he didn't have value or importance, but from what I know HoF feels like a stretch. He strikes me as more of an Arn Anderson type. Wild Bull Curry Sort of seen as an innovator of the crazy man schtick, with a crazy look and crazy brawling technique. Not sure how well he drew with this gimmick, but certainly not much as his Detroit brother The Sheik. May be more too him. I think Musgrave's a fan. Cowboy Bob Ellis Was a star of some note for at least fifteen years. Not sure where his biggest success were but he did lay a claim to a World Title at one point. Be interested to know if he was a draw or any note in LA. Luther Lindsay Well he was Stu Hart's favorite from memory. Was a trail blazer of sorts for blacks in wrestling and definitely wrestled a lot of the big names of the day. He worked all over the place and was one of the first major stars in the Pacific Northwest area. He was never an ace so far as I can tell, but appears to have been a traveling opponent of some value and as a territory jumper was quite successful. I don't know enough to endorse him, but I would not have any problem with him on the ballot after a preliminary review. Lord James Blears Primarily a tag worker from what I can tell. I know some say he was a good in ring performer. He was a pretty questionable announcer in the AWA. I assume he must have been a major star somewhere for Dave to have included him on the list. Seems weird to put him on here soley as a guy held a bunch of tag belts. Ilio DiPaolo Relatively short career with some huge highs from what I can tell. Would need a lot more info. Hardboiled Haggerty Was certainly a star of some magnitude in the AWA and I know for a fact some of the older fans from the era he was around in hold him in very high regard. I don't think he was around for a huge amount of time but I'd have to go back and look at the Schire book to make sure of it. Missouri Mauler Really well regarded and well known wrestler for Crockett. One of those guys who occasional will still get mentioned today around here. Not sure how much that means. I'd need to see some results to get a better idea of his value. Hans Mortier Don't know nearly enough. Ron Etchison Totally forgotten name that appears to have been a star for a long time in a lot of places. Not sure how strongly he was presented, but he certainly was booked in a position of strength for a long time. http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/17927.html He'd need someone to dig up some figures and more research on particulars but he actually doesn't seem like a bad candidate.

He's not great, but by comparison to Trongard, Larry Nelson and Lee Marshall? Let's just say he laps the field.

I like Gene a lot in the AWA. His interplay in the studio interviews with Heenan and others was always excellent. He was actually a decent ring announcer/and pbp man as well.

A few years ago, some new Montreal footage surfaced. the listings from those discs give you some idea of how entrenched Bravo was in the main event scene in Montreal. I've extracted the Bravo matches from the listings below. The range of bouts here are from approximately 1981 through early 1986: Dino Bravo vs. Sailor White Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Masked Superstar & King Tonga Dino Bravo vs Rick Martel (Quebec City, Verne Gagne in Martel’s corner, Gino Brito in Bravo’s) Dino Bravo vs Masked Superstar ( 3 matches between 6 & 23 /8/83 ) Dino Bravo vs Kurt Von Hess Dino Bravo vs Michel Dubois 22/7/81 (film clips) Dino Bravo vs Abdullah The Butcher (from Montreal—NOT the Japan Bloodbath) Dino Bravo vs Jimmy Snuka (Snuka is a heel brought in and managed by Lord Al Hayes) Dino Bravo vs Pierre Lefebvre Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Hull, Quebec ) Dino Bravo (Int Champ) vs. King Tonga (Title Change) Dino Bravo & Joe Leduc vs King Tonga & Masked Superstar Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs. King Tonga & Masked Superstar (Montreal Forum) Dino Bravo & Billy Robinson vs King Tonga & Abdullah the Butcher Dino Bravo vs King Tonga (Montreal Forum) Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs King Tonga & Nick Bockwinkel Dino Bravo & Rick Martel vs Sheik Ali & Jimmy Garvin Dino Bravo vs Frenchie Martin Dino Bravo vs Samu (International title) Road Warriors vs. Dino Bravo/Rick Martel Dino Bravo vs. Sheik Ali Dino Bravo vs. Masked Superstar (Montreal, Superstar attacks Bravo before the match gets going and puts him out, a wild scene ensues with fans throwing chairs) I bolded the ones most worth seeing from what I remember. This list is by no means complete, I'm sure, but you can see that Bravo's position in the important matches on the International area cards must have meant he was a viable main event guy, very popular with the fans, over the long term, and a more-than-credible champion and #1 contender at all times. I would guess he had some sort of stake in the promotion but I don't know that, and even if he did, he obviously drew well enough that pushing himself into the main event was a solid business move. Bravo wrestled in and around Montreal from the very early 70's (There is some work of his available from the Vachon's Grand Prix promotion, circa 1972-74) , so his popularity in the area was cultivated over time. When his turn to take the ball and run with it came, he was able to do so in grand fashion. I liken it to Jerry Blackwell's AWA run, as described by Dylan when he was making a HOF credentials thread for Jerry, except that Bravo was able to keep himself viable as a top guy in a much smaller area compared to Blackwell in the AWA. Gotta be really over to do that. As far as I know, in his entire time in Montreal before departing for the WWF, he was always a face. Couple other differences between Bravo and Blackwell - Blackwell was a very good worker for his prime run, Blackwell was a draw in big metro areas over a huge span of territory, Blackwell was at a higher level in St. Louis than Bravo was in MACW or the WWF (that may be arguable, but the results really favor Blackwell in that comparison), Blackwell was an effective draw as a face and a heel. I would be interested to see if Bravo worked heel at all there and what other towns - if any - they ran. I feel like I should maybe add him to the bold as it looks like he was an effective ace for a substantial period of time. This certainly makes me want to study the history of Montreal more which I have wanted to do for a while anyhow.

Okerland is a great example of one of those guys in the non-wrestler category who I would neither object to, nor feel super compelled to vote for. I certainly don't think he would look out of place in an HoF.

I knew Nomenelli worked some in SF and it stands to reasons he would be a draw there but I hadn't really put two and two together for whatever reason. Total airball on my part

Chief Jay Strongbow Similar to Ivan Putski in that he was a second string ethnic babyface for Vince. This means that he got a shitload of main events on house shows and even on some bigger shows but was never really positioned as a main guy. He also sucked shit in the ring. Haystacks Calhoun Extremely famous name, and one of the first "old wrestlers" kids like me learned about in the 80's. Don't know if he was ever a really effective draw as a novelty. Seems like a vote for Haystacks would be like voting for Sky Low Low, though Sky Low Low was a much better worker. Boris Malenko Legendary on the mic though I have no clue if he was actually that good. May have been a draw in Florida though I don't know that he was a tremendous drawing card. Seems like someone there would have been a major uproar about by now if he was an obvious pick, though I could be wrong. Gino Hernandez Another in the what might have been camp. Was of course a great heel and could have been a massive star if he didn't die young. His Southwest and WCCW runs were really fun and did good business. Not enough. David Shultz Dr. D was a pretty relevant territory journeyman. Definitely made an impact in a wide variety of places and I have no doubt he could have been huge if the stars aligned. They didn't, he kicked a reporters ass, now he's a crazy old man. No. Dino Bravo I actually think there is some evidence just from the AWA results that shows Dino was a solid drawing card in Canada, but I don't know that he was ever the key name up there. He was in some decent feuds as a mid-carder, but I don't think he was enough of a main event talent elsewhere to merit serious discussion. Leo Nomellini Was a very successful tag wrestler for years though I don't think he was ever a major singles star. Hard for me to see a guy who was a part of good tags for less than ten years with no major singles run as a serious contender. Lonnie Mayne Mayne has been on the ballot a couple of times I think so I would oppose including him again though he is a favorite of Dave's and may have been a territorial draw of significant proportions. Primo Carnera I see no harm in putting him on the ballot. By all accounts he was perhaps the top draw in the business for a few years. Worse guys have gotten a shot at the ballot and I think there is something to exploring guys like Carnera or Tillet more thoroughly. I don't know enough to say that I would vote for him. Bugsy McGraw Was Bugsy a major draw anywhere? Bull Ramos Interesting candidate that I would consider if there was more info about him. Certainly appears to have been involved in some major angles and feuds all over the country and was often times positioned against the top heel in the territories he was in. How many guys can say they were in hot feuds with Bruno and Mascaras? Dean Ho Was certainly a star on the West Coast though I don't know that he was ever the absolute top star in any territory. Maybe in Hawaii? Don't see how he would be a better candidate than Dutch Savage.

Curious if there have been any more polls on the WO. Please keep posting them if there have been.

Magnum T.A. Another what might have been name. I'm not sure the popular myths about Magnum being the next superstar are true, but there is no question that he was hugely over and in his short run had a string of very memorable matches and angles. You can certainly envision him as a hall of fame performer - with another six or seven years of that sort of run under his belt. Art Barr Yet another like Magnum, Nikita, DDP, et. I tend to think Barr was a bit overrated as a wrestler, but there is no question that he was a hot ticket heel during a major point in the history of Lucha. I'm not sure it's entirely fair to call him a flash in the pan as he probably had his best years in front of him when he died, but I don't see how a couple of years can get you in a Hall of Fame. Angelo Mosca Was he even as big a star as John Studd? I doubt it. Yoshihiro Takayama One of the only Japanese wrestlers from the post AJPW/NJPW collapse years I could see an argument for. I wouldn't vote for him but as an outsider who doesn't follow the booking closely he certainly feels like he has been a consistent star with a positive impact on business at various points. I'm also a fan of his work, generally thinking he has been solid/very good for most of his career. Would need more hard figures to be convinced to vote for him and he may have been on the ballot and fallen off before. Without researching it much he seems fairly comparable to Sasaki. Satoshi Kojima Perhaps he meant more to business than I know, but I don't see him as an HoF level draw or star. And he's definitely not on that level as a worker (though from memory he was a favorite of many puro fans in the mid 00's). Cibernetico Don't know enough. Fuerza Guerrera Great worker. Hell he's still a good worker now. I have no clue if he was an impact on business in any meaningful way though. He's someone I would like to learn more about. Would like to know if Lucha fans see him as a deserving figure or not. Pierroth Jr. Don't know enough. Jerry Estrada Another worker that I like an awful lot although when he was off he was off. Sometimes he would be really awesome for half a match and really terrible for the other half which is especially annoying. I never got the feeling he was an iconic star in Mexico but could be wrong. Latin Lover Don't really know enough, but was he that big a star? I honestly thought he was kind of an upper mid-carder in Mexico, but as stated before my knowledge of Lucha history is very weak. Kato Kung Lee Don't know enough. La Fiera If Fiera was a draw of any magnitude I would support his inclusion on the ballot, as he was a brilliant worker. Probably one of the best workers than few people know anything about.