Dylan Waco

This is a fair point, although there is a big difference between no selling an uppercut and no selling multiple versions of powerbombs/ddts/suplexes/et. I made my point poorly as it really comes down to presentation. Having said that I would rather see a match chock full of guys "overselling" punches than a match chock full of guys "underselling" "high end" offense.

I think depth of offense is possibly the LEAST important tool a wrestler can have at their disposal. It is not irrelevant and can obviously add to a match or to a wrestler's standing, but it is not as important as timing, selling, working the crowd, actual delivery of offense (which I think is a separate category) or even bumping in my view. I have never seen a match that sucked because of too many good bumps, or too much good selling. Too much working the crowd can hurt a match, but it rarely will kill it. Too much offense has killed many a match for me (though to be fair this is usually because of how the matches are laid out).

no i believe that was Taylor v. Rogers

Well he did win a World title one of the few times it worked, and getting caught never caused him to directly lose. I'm aware of him making it work... though that famous win was due to the ref tripping Race. But you're making a sports analogy that would be this: I once had a hail mary TD that won a game. In my next 100 starts, at the 7:30 mark of each 2nd quarter (our as close as I can get to it with possession of the ball), I'll toss a Hail Mary to "test" the defense. So even if I throw 95 INTS, it's "worth it" due to the 5 times I'll connect for a TD. That's kind of... A Dumb Fuck QB. Which is what I think we'd all agree if we analyzed Heel Champion Wrestler Ric Flair at any depth. Dumb, Weak and/or a Bitch in most of what he did. John Leave Favre/Romo out of this

The best of the WWE car crash ladder matches was the four man tag ladder match from 06 where Joey Mercury's face explodes and that match actually had a really interesting story to it - one of my favorite in recent memory actually

I watch Raw every Monday, usually while laying down. I've fallen asleep watching Raw maybe ten times over the last fifteen years.

Again, the show put me to sleep. I'm a big WWE fan, especially by the standards of this board, and I was asleep seconds into the main event. The show may have been interesting conceptually and might have been a smark wet dream but it was not something that appealed to me on any level as a regular fan

Bravo is far better than Stevie Ray. Saito/Valentine is actually really tough and something I would have dwell on for a while

I did in this instance yes. Do I do it all the time? No.

I thought the show was remarkably boring. I actually fell asleep during the main event which never happens. The concept of the show I liked and it reminded me of the SD years ago with Cena, Edge and Rey standing tall in the Cage at the end of the broadcast signaling the beginning of a new era. But as a show there was absolutely nothing that grabbed me, stood out or even bordered on sustaining my interest. On paper the main event looked great and I will go back and give it a watch. Other than that the only think I really liked was the crazy Uso bump and Mark Henry being awesome on the mic

He is a top ten candidate for the year. He has not had a better year than Punk. You can certainly compare Lawler to Punk and Lawler would lose, but I'm not sure that means much. Eric Embry was not as good in 89 as Tenryu, but Embry was still awesome.

It's a shame I don't have access to the board, because i would absolutely roll out a a "500 guys not in the Observer Hall of Fame who are better candidates than Kurt Angle" thread.

Who argued that Lawler has had a better in ring year than Punk? Direct me to the post

We're seriously counting Lawler drawing a few 2-3k (3 being generous) crowds as a feather in his cap? That's ridiculous. Most WWE crowds draw double to triple that. US only, Cena, and perhaps Punk and maybe Henry have a case. It's ridiculous to give Lawler credit for drawing on his name and not "the brand", but not ridiculous to give Cena "credit" for the companies ratings shitting the bed with him as the ace? That's odd logic. I can see a case for Cena or Punk. Punk will win the Observer Award for sure. Henry is a better candidate than most anyone would admit. Lawler is more an interesting case than a front runner, but pretending that his indy figures aren't impressive by today's standards, is just silly.

Buddy Match Review Number Twenty-Eight! Battle Royal - AWA TV 1986(?) I grant that is bizarre to review a battle royal, and this will not be a traditional review. This is actually the exact text of what I wrote nominating it for the AWA Set. Buddy was one of the two real stars of the match, the other being Hennig. And it is probably the best none Royal Rumble, battle Royal I've ever seen. The opening graphic run for this with Japanese overdub was great. Silo Sam or whatever the fuck showing up ruled. Debeers gets his mustache used against him by the Rockers. A sparring session breaks out in the early going. The Blaster is in the match. Silo chasing around Buddy Rose was hilarious. The big eliminations of Larry, Blackwell and Debeers were well milked and had huge heat. Buddy being left with two Russians against Gagne, Rockers and Hennig and begging off in the corner was great. Marty eliminates himself after Buddy holds on to the top rope on a crossbody attempt. The fucking Russians accidentally headscissor each other. Shawn does a skin the cat spot eliminating Gordenko but stupidly eliminates himself too. Buddy does his fucking backward head bump in a fucking battle royal! Buddy finally gets eliminated on a huge bump over the top and it comes down to Hennig and Smirnoff of all people. Hennig gets posted and blades. He sells some, makes a reversal and then Smirnoff takes a shockingly huge bump off of a dropkick for the Hennig win. I thought this was a shit ton of fun. Seriously one of the most fun matches I've watched.

Buddy Match Review Number Twenty-Seven! Buddy Rose/Doug Somers v. The Midnight Rockers - AWA TV 1986 This was from the Showboat and is one of the shorter matches from the feud. Will described it as the "cliff notes version" of their other great matches and I don't disagree with that really, but it's still a really good tv match. The early going is great as they have a push up exchange pre-lock up which always gets the crowd amped. Watching Rose work fast paced spots and matwork even at this point you realize he was a total natural as he was totally out of shape in look but still aces in the ring. Somers ends up getting worked over and the Rockers hit a nice splash on his arm. Somers pushes Marty into the corner but accidentally decks Buddy who takes a huge bump damn near into the first row. That was one of those Buddy staples, that didn't happen every match, but every time he did it it would get you right out of your seat. Jannetty ends up going face in peril and man alive are the heels great. Rose hits an awesome spinning back elbow. Really awesome strike exchange with Marty and Somers that ends with an eye rake which is something I mark for every time. Marty wins a war for a suplex and tags out but ends up back in and going back on the defensive. Cool spot as the heels actually successfully whipped the faces into each other which NEVER works. Somers takes a huge bump off the top and Marty hits a crossbody for the finish. Good, short match, with all parties looking pretty damned great.

Buddy Match Review Number Twenty-Six! Jay Youngblood & Joe Lightfoot vs. Rip Oliver & Buddy Rose - Portland TV 11/8/80 First fall was a lot of fun. Lightfoots quick escapes worked really well and Oliver was taking the babyface offense like a champ. Buddy fleeing in terror every time Youngblood even moved toward him was great. Finishing senton was pretty cool too. The early work in the second fall is based off of a headlock but I really liked how they worked it as Oliver was good working unique escape attempts from the bottom keeping it interesting. Oliver eventually breaks free and Rose comes in to work over Lightfoot. His taunts are great and his offense is sharp. Lightfoot's FIP is pretty good almost entirely because of heels who work really deliberately on offense, cover for a flub of his well, and just generally amp up their act. Seriously I fucking LOVED the way Rose worked in this fall as everything he did looked like it was done with maximum impact. Lightfoot had some good hope spots too. Crowd went batshit for Youngblood who lights up Rose. Lightfoot is tagged back in but misses a big dropkick and Rose wins with his spinning backbreaker. I didn't mind the third fall starting out with Lightfoot in peril and Rose was good with the taunts, but there is a pretty awful back body drop spot in here that sort of takes the steam out of things. Thesz press near fall/hope spot on Rose was kind of awkward but cool, though the subsequent hot tag tease was kind of botched up. Lightfoot just looked really sloppy in the third fall in general. On top of it the heat section really seemed to drag. Once Youngblood came in things got hot and Rose starting taking some of his classic big bumps. The finish was clever, and Buddy cleaned up some of the mistakes well. This is more like two-thirds of a really good match, than a really good match, but it's still another example of Buddy being the man.

Buddy Match Review Number Twenty-Five! Buddy Rose v. Curt Hennig - Portland TV 7/3/82 Hennig has a hurt leg coming in so naturally Rose ends up taking a huge flip bump into the ropes early and Hennig goes to town on his knee to even things up. The early leg work was a lot of fun as Buddy sells his ass off and took several theatrical bumps to set up various hold and attacks from Hennig. Kind of a funny spot with Rose trying to pull Hennig to the floor to scramble in but he ends up getting trapped and has his leg smashed into the steel post several times. Buddy ends up giving up to a half crab to end a very fun first fall. 2nd Fall sees Rose bail out right away and hobble around on one leg before getting trapped in a half crab again. Really cool moment with Hennig shoving Rose own foot into his mouth. Hennig stays aggressive even with Rose in the ropes as it is no DQ, but Rose gets in a couple of shots at Hennigs knee and ends up taking over, including some chairshots to the knee. Hennig comes back jettisoning Rose to the floor and working in on Buddy's knee. I really liked the spot with Rose bailing to the floor here as Hennig is over aggressive and this time gets cut and takes a chairshot into his knee to lose momentum. Rose locks on a half crab center ring and Hennig throws punches and elbows to the back of Buddy's knee joints trying to break the hold but Rose sits down on it and wins the fall. Really good fall, with very well done momentum swings. 3rd fall has kind of a fun beginning as they start out on a tentative lock up, but Hennig suckers him in and beats Rose's knee with a chair and just lights him up. Buddy cut shim off with one of the nastiest eye rakes ever and goes to work on Hennig's leg on the post but Dr. D comes out for the non-finish after cheapshotting Rose. Stupid finish to an otherwise really great match match. The psychology, timing, consistency and struggle in this rank right up there with anything I've seen from anywhere. And Hennig was really green as grass in a lot of ways.

Gonna catch up today... Buddy Match Review Number Twenty-Four! Buddy Rose/Rip Oliver v. Bret Sawyer/Rocky Johnson - Portland TV 7/10/82 In some ways Rocky is the perfect opponent for Buddy as Rocky is quintessential "athlete" wrestler. He is also a guy who has five really cool spots that stop being cool after the second or third time you see them, unless someone is around to really get them over. Well Buddy is a guy who can get other guys shit over and he is great at playing "surprisingly athletic guy, falling victim to superior athleticism of more serious/trained athlete." The first manifestation of this in the match was really great as Buddy escapes a monkey flip attempt by cartwheeling around it. That is standard Buddy and gives him a chance to be a cocky douche. Rocky follows this up by escaping from a Buddy monkey flip by landing flat on his feet. Buddy was proud of his impressive display of athleticism - but he's no Rocky Johnson and is not happy about this. This feeds directly into a great criss cross spot (no one was better at those than Buddy) which results in Buddy taking a back body drop and promptly claiming that he too had landed on his feet when he clearly hadn't. Rip ends up coming in and back body dropping Rocky - who of course lands on his feet as Buddy looks livid with frustration on the apron. Bret and Rocky take turns dropping double axes on Oliver who hits a few short rights and tags Buddy back in. Buddy hit some big shoulder tackles off the ropes but ends up getting taken over on by Sawyer and the faces go to work on his arm. Rocky gets himself isolated in the heel corner and goes FIP. This all builds to a great finish to the first fall as Rose is great selling befuddlement at Rocky's rolling through escapes before eating a dropkick and sunset flip for the pin. Really the perfect ending for the first act of this one. Opening of second fall is awesome as Rose goes for a headlock and Rocky slides out over and over and Rose just looks absolutely perplexed and appalled by this. Rose tries to escape from a Rocky headlock and ends up face planting himself. Rose can not outslick Rocky and he hates him for it. So he knees Rocky right in the guts coming off the ropes and Johnson goes face in peril again. Strangely the heels work a nervehold. Even stranger Oliver's working of it is a lot more spirited than Rose's was. Rocky goes for a comeback but gets caught with a back elbow coming off the rope for a near fall. Rocky makes the tag twice but both times the ref misses it and the heels end up taking the second fall. Pretty neat to see the old "ref misses the hot tag" spot actually resulting in the faces dropping a fall. Third Fall starts out hot with Sawyer hitting a great dropkick on Oliver, followed by Buddy and Sawyer trading missed dropkicks. Dr. D shows up when Rose goes up top and knocks him off, then takes him to the floor and posts him. Rose bleeds big time and the match gets thrown out. Finish is kind of annoying because everything before that was really great and well laid out. But this is about as good a job as I've ever seen of someone getting over Rocky Johnson - or anyone else for that matter - as super skilled, superior athlete.

Was thinking about this again today and it is worth noting that Lawler's December 2010 would count in Observer voting, so the Miz Ladder Match would be in. Also worth noting that from what I can tell he did very strong crowds for the matches v. Funk and Dreamer for NEW, on top of the huge show at the Nashville Fairgrounds v. Dundee. In fact it is entirely possible - perhaps likely - that Lawler headlined the four biggest drawing indy shows of the year (the Louisville Dundee match appears to have done well also). Ratings have stayed up with Henry at the helm of SD and live attendance is better as well. Henry is a top ten worker this year. Lawler is in that discussion also.

I love that even Todd Martin comes across as the voice of reason when "debating" Alvarez

Jerry, For a computer using person, you can't get much more luddite than me. I've literally been endorsed by the foremost historian of the Luddite's in fact. So that is part of it. But the bigger issue is that we started on talkshoe and just haven't bothered to switch over. We probably will eventually move over to Skype.

Excellent point shoe. I have fallen behind here because of some medical issues, but I am going to catch up in a big way this weekend.

Buddy Match Review Twenty-Three! Buddy Rose/Doug Somers/Larry Zbyszko v. Mike Rotunda/Jimmy Snuka/Steve Pardee - AWA 5/26/86 Man Sherri is a great second as her rah-rah act for Rose is just wonderful. She was underrated as a worker, and really underrated as a second as she added a lot to every act she was with and Rose/Somers was really her first major act IIRC. Rose is a huge asshole early, doing his cartwheel escape and spitting at someone off camera. Pardee wagging his ass at Rose off of Rose's own monkey flip spot is apparent a staple of Rose/Pardee exchanges but it's something I find amusing everytime. The spinebuster out of Thesz press attempt was pretty sweet and something you don't see..well..ever. I really liked Zbyszko in this too as he has to be begged to come in at all, then comes in for ten seconds, tags out and then goes to shit talk at Trongard while Snuka no sells shots to the head and kicks Roses's ass. Pardee goes face in peril and this segment includes some cool cut off spots. I really loved Somers backing him into a corner to keep him away from his corner at one point and Rose cutting off access with a chop that he bumped huge for was pretty sweet too. Rose does a hope step taunt after hitting his back elbow which was great but Pardee ends up reversing a suplex and gets the tag to Rotundo. Heels bump all over the place at this point and Buddy ends up tied up into the ropes which leads to a fucking great spot with Somers getting whipped into him and Rose taking his crazy backwards bump through the ropes. Snuka and Pardee hit some fun offense off the ropes but Pardee whiffs on a dropkick and the heels lock him into the corner and beat him senseless. Ref Scott LeDoux tries to temper shit but the heels won't listen and he ends up back dropping Larry to the floor for a massive pop, DQing the heels right after. This was pretty god damned fun. Rotundo could have been replaced by anyone, but every body else in the match served a unique purpose and this is something people will see on the AWA Set.

All this Hack Myers talk warms my heart