Dylan Waco

I think he likely would have done even worse had he done that. I think he was just too small for anyone but his Dad to push. He likely would have done worse for the simple fact that the High Flyers were one of the most over, best drawing and best working tag teams of the 70s/80's and it's highly unlikely that degree of success would have been replicated elsewhere no matter what his degree of talent.

I think best shine is the RnR Express for the reason Loss mentions. I don't think you can give that entirely to Ricky because Robert was in on a lot of that and the double teams were often the biggest "pop" spots during the shine segments. Agree with child on Rey and hope spots Best babyface selling is Morton, though Terry Funk is right on his heels. Fire and comeback have a lot of contenders. I am a huge mark for Terry Funk and think he was great at both. Lawler would be right there.

No doubt that Saint was one of the first guys to really hit from the British scene which shows up in the appreciation guys like Cabana, Quackenbush, et. have for him. However as recently as five years ago Breaks seemed to be the WoS guy that was getting pimped the most. Either way I don't see how he is a better HoF candidate than McManus, Pallo or Daddy at minimum.

Was Saint even on the ballot last year? Breaks has had as many fans online as Saint until the last couple of years and he is not on the ballot. If Saint was not thought highly of by a lot of the ''indy'' darlings of recent years and did not have the Chikara matches I doubt he would be on the ballot, let alone a guy who appears to have a good shot of going in. Again, I like Saint, but other than the fact that he feels more exotic to Americans I am not sure what makes him a better candidate than say William Regal.

I used to like Koshinaka and Takada a good bit. Now I really don't care for either at all unless they are in tags. I hate their matches together. I haven't watched 90's Kosh in years to be fair but as a junior I thought he was dogshit most of the time on the 80's set which is not at all how I felt the first time I saw him. Takada is someone who I really dislike immensely at this point outside of a few moments in certain matches. I've soured some on Chris Candido. He used to be one of my very favorites and I used to tout him as one of the most unheralded wrestlers of all time. I still think he had a great bag of tools but going back and watching ECW I was shocked at how rarely he got the most out of them. His SMW stuff holds up very favorably, but he's no longer one of my favorite guys despite his charm (though I still count myself a fan). I used to fucking hate Larry Zbyszko. He still has points in watching older footage where his stalling becomes more of an annoyance than a plus to the match, but over all his stock has really risen with me. Really love his Regal feud in 94, his run in the DA was great in 92, and his AWA stuff - while a bit of a mixed bag - has far more positives than negatives. I used to think the High Flyers were a joke. They weren't. They were a very good team, that had they wrestled in any other territory would probably be regarded as one of the top five teams of the 80's if factor in all categories. Greg in particular is much better than I had remembered. Ron Garvin and Greg Valentine are both guys I used to think were boring when I was a kid and sort of avoided up until recent years as a "smart" fan. Turns out they were both awesome wrestlers and not just against each other. Backlund and Kerry Von Erich are two people that I still don't enjoy as much as others, but I hated both for years. Thought Backlund was bad and Kerry was just a piece of luggage. Don't buy either of those arguments at all any more. Backlund was pretty clearly a good worker, as was Kerry Oh yeah, I also used to believe the like that Michael Hayes couldn't work.

There is a good bit of Saint available, perhaps more than I let on. My point was more or less that he's not a guy that has been widely explored and analyzed by tape traders like other guys who would be considered HoF candidates because of work alone. I really like Saint a lot and I would venture to guess that I've watched more WoS than most. Probably far more than Bruce. I have a hard time seeing how Saint stands out above Jim Breaks who up until Saint popped up in Chikara seemed to be a guy that had more of a consensus flavor to him among people who followed the British scene. Breaks isn't on the ballot. Saint is on the ballot because of his U.S. indy work as much as anything else and if he gets in that will be a huge factor. On Edge, I'm waiting for him to get in this year so I can roll out my "100 wrestlers who are better HoF candidates" than Edge list.

I like how it starts with the premise that he was one of the great workers from his era (this is probably true, but there's not a ton of footage from his peak, "one of the great" is not much of a statement on it's surface and it's highly debatable whether or not he's even the best in ring performer from that general time period in his country) and evolves into "or at least this era" which can be read a lot of ways but seems to imply that Bruce has no fucking clue whether or not Saint was really any good in WoS or not. Also I am amused by the notion that Saint's handful of matches on U.S. soil over the last couple of years make him a serious HoF contender. This would be like Phil Schneider or myself arguing that Black Terry should go in because he was the best wrestler in the World in 2010. Actually with Saint it's worse - his value is being judged on four or five matches. There is a lot of 2010 Black Terry easily available. I'm not even sure what the hell to compare this too, though the Ultimo "he did cool shit when he was on tv here and some guys who became wrestlers thought he was cool" standard seems to fit on the surface.

I suspected as much, but did he give any other details or is this a case of "guy works a few matches in States over last few years and becomes HoFer" ala Ultimo

What does he base the Johnny Saint pick on?

The one we have is good and has a shot of making the AWA Set.

I don't think there is much Central States and most of it is pretty poor. Tying up a few loose ends on Blackwell. A couple of different places claim he worked Amarillo and Houston by I can't find any evidence of it. In 75-76 he was in Mid-Atlantic, including a mid-card tag team with Brute Bernard that seemed to get at least a bit of a push. In early 76 he was also in the WWF where he worked underneath a lot early, but actually moved onto some main events and semi-mains on spot shows. He worked a sort of mini-program v. Putski and actually headlined in some of the mid-level markets. He went on last twice at MSG though both times he was the buffer match after the Bruno main event. He also had a tag title program, a mini-program with Bobo and a mini-program with Kevin Sullivan all of which were placed in second from the top slots even in the big buildings. He even had a match against Monsoon in Pittsburgh in April. Blackwell dropped back into the card some but finished up working with Monsoon/Brazil/Putski around the loop which is a solid mid-card slot. Overall he comes across as a reliable mid-carder that was shuffled up and down the card based on necessity. I am guessing he was in Mid-Atlantic for part of 77 and 78, though I haven't been able to find any results. I know he was in Southeastern for a while in 78/79 as a mid-carder though he did hold the tag titles there twice and worked in some main events. From Sept. of 78 til the end of the year he was in the WWWF (technically his tv debut was in early August, but he didn't work the loop until Sept.) which was an interesting run that I would like to see the tv from. He got an early t.v. main event teaming with Ernie Ladd v. Backlund and Mavia. He mostly worked underneath against your standard scrubs and worked a lot of spot shows. In the last two months of the year he actually main evented several spot shows against guys like S.D. Jones, Larry Zbyszko and Jay Strongbow. His biggest match had to be against Backlund at the Spectrum but we don't have a figure for it. He also main evented against Andre on a few shows in singles and in a tag match in Augusta, Maine of all places. You get the feeling that he might have been being groomed for a bigger run and either got a better offer somewhere else or the company decided to go in a different direction. Hard to tell. The awesome Lawler match from May of 81 in Memphis was only a one shot deal and did a hair over 5,000 which was below average for the year though not the worst drawing show of the year. He was brought into Central States several times starting in 84. He had four main events that year and was clearly booked as a special attraction worth seeing as his bouts were against Flair and Cage Matches v. Harley. In 85/86 he was brought in some and booked all over the card against a wide variety of (mostly middling) talent.

Colon is a total picture candidate no matter what others want to say. You view the total package with those guys. No one is going to compartmentalize. As an aside I'm still digging up stuff on Blackwell to try and get a full picture and in the process I was shocked to see how consistently Patera was as a main eventer in Mid-Atlantic in 78-79. He definitely feels like a much stronger candidate than you might assume on the surface.

Expanding on my Blackwell research by looking at his St. Louis run. We don't have attendance figures for all but a couple shows, but I still think it adds to the total picture. http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...mp;page=2#pager 11/20/81 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat David Von Erich Dusty Rhodes beat Sgt Slaughter Missouri State champion Ken Patera beat Bulldog Bob Brown Pat O'Connor and Rufus R Jones (sub Rocky Johnson) beat Crusher Blackwell and Bob Sweetan Dewey Robertson beat Ron McFarlane Billy Robinson drew Gene Lewis Chan Chung and Jerry Brown beat Tommy Martin and Buzz Tyler 12/4/81 St Louis Ric Flair won a 14 man battle royal NWA champion Ric Flair beat Jack Brisco Missouri State champion Ken Patera beat Jack Brisco (sub Kerry Von Erich) David Von Erich beat Sgt Slaughter dq Crusher Blackwell & Gene Lewis & Bob Sweetan beat Pat O'Connor & Tommy Martin & Bulldog Bob Brown Dewey Robertson beat Chan Chung Rufus R Jones beat Ron McFarlane Bruce Reed drew Jerry Brown 1/1/82 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dusty Rhodes Dick the Bruiser beat Ken Patera to win the Missouri State title David Von Erich and Rufus R Jones no contest Harley Race and Greg Valentine Dewey Robertson beat Baron Von Raschke Crusher Blackwell beat Ox Baker and Bruce Reed Pat O'Connor beat Bob Sweetan (Pat's St Louis retirement match) Wendi Richter and Joyce Grable beat Sandy Partlow and Early Dawn Bulldog Bob Brown no contest Jerry Brown All of the above shows were booked by Mushnick. O'Conner takes over either on the Jan. 1st show or after. Blackwell is being built but not used high up the cards. 2/19/82 St Louis Dick the Bruiser won an 18 man battle royal Crusher Blackwell and Harley Race no contest Andre the Giant and Dusty Rhodes Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Greg Valentine Ken Patera beat Crusher Blackwell Gene Kiniski beat Baron Von Raschke Dewey Robertson beat Dick Murdoch dq Kerry Von Erich beat Gene Lewis Roger Kirby drew Spike Huber Jerry Brown and Jerry Valiant beat Ricky Romero and Bulldog Bob Brown Blackwell no showed the previous card where he was scheduled in the semi-main v. Dewey Robertson. But here he is again in a big semi-main and doing double duty against his future opponent. 3/26/82 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dick the Bruiser Gene Kiniski and Dewey Robertson beat Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera dq Terry Funk beat Mark Romero (sub Jack Brisco) Rufus R Jones beat Jerry Brown Roger Kirby beat Kerry Von Erich COR Superfly beat Ricky Romero Bulldog Bob Brown and Steve Regal beat Jerry Valiant and Gene Lewis 4/16/82 St Louis Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Crusher Blackwell Ken Patera beat Dewey Robertson Gene Kiniski and Rufus R Jones beat Superfly and Sgt Slaughter Kerry Von Erich beat Jerry Brown Steve Regal drew Roger Kirby Mark Romero beat Ray Hernandez Art Crews and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Gene Lewis and Ron McFarlane 4/30/82 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Gene Kiniski Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Harley Race COR Ken Patera and Crusher Blackwell beat Dusty Rhodes and Rufus R Jones Kelly Kiniski beat Jerry Brown Sabrina and Princess Victoria beat Wendi Richter and Joyce Grable Michael Hayes beat Ron McFarlane Roger Kirby drew Steve Regal (sub Bulldog Bob Brown) Interesting stuff here as Blackwell works underneath in a huge tag that was beneath only the World Title match, then gets a big main event and then gets a match that is third from the top under two title matches. Pretty clear he's being presented as a big part of the show at this point. 5/14/82 St Louis Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser beat Dick Murdoch and Crusher Blackwell Dewey Robertson beat Jack Brisco David and Kerry Von Erich beat Ken Patera and Roger Kirby Bulldog Bob Brown beat Superfly dq Ray Hernandez beat Art Crews (sub Steve Regal) Rufus R Jones beat Ron McFarlane Mark Romero beat Jerry Brown 6/12/82 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dick the Bruiser Harley Race and Dick Murdoch no contest Dusty Rhodes and Ted DiBiase Dory Funk Jr beat Dewey Robertson King Kong Brody beat Bob Sweetan David and Kerry Von Erich beat Ken Patera and Crusher Blackwell Rufus R Jones beat Superfly Mark Romero (sub Ted Oates) beat Kabuki dq Roger Kirby drew Mike George 7/16/82 St Louis Dory Funk Jr beat Gene Kiniski Crusher Blackwell beat Ken Patera Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Sgt Slaughter Dewey Robertson & Rufus R Jones & Spike Huber (sub Kerry Von Erich) beat Baron Von Raschke & Roger Kirby and Ray Hernandez Mike George drew Manny Fernandez (sub Bob Russell) Mark Romero and Art Crews beat Buzz Tyler and Abdullah the Great Would kill to see that Von Erichs v. future Sheiks tag and it is an interesting use of Blackwell who is still essentially a main eventer in St. Louis. Interesting that Blackwell teamed with Patera and worked against him in the semi-main on the next show. I wonder what the angle was. Next three shows Blackwell semi-mains in a tag, misses the second August show and then semi-main events against Dewey again. 10/8/82 St Louis Harley Race beat NWA champion Ric Flair (one fall only, no title change) Crusher Blackwell no contest Andre the Giant Kim Duk & Ken Patera & Ray Hernandez beat Dusty Rhodes & Bruce Reed & Dewey Robertson dq Hulk Hogan beat Greg Valentine and Tio in a handicap match Mark Romero beat Roger Kirby Manny Fernandez beat Baron Von Raschke Bulldog Bob Brown and Buzz Tyler drew Rufus R Jones and Mike George 10/22/82 St Louis Ken Patera beat Crusher Blackwell Hulk Hogan and Dick the Bruiser beat Greg Valentine and Dewey Robertson Bruce Reed beat Kim Duk Buzz Tyler no contest Ray Hernandez Ivan Koloff beat Mike George Manny Fernandez beat Terry Gordy Mark Romero and Terry Orndorff beat Crusher Ayala and Roger Kirby God damn that first show is stacked. I wonder what the figure was for that? The second show is really weak though Blackwell v. Patera is the headliner so that feud was still doing something in the eyes of the office. Jerry works third from the top in a kind of nothing match next and then is gone for the next show. He comes back for: 12/3/82 St Louis Dick the Bruiser and Bruce Reed beat Ric Flair and Crusher Blackwell Kerry Von Erich beat Ray Fernandez Ken Patera drew Ivan Koloff Bulldog Bob Brown beat Dewey Robertson Bob Orton Jr beat Art Crews Roger Kirby and Crusher Ayala beat Mike George and Manny Fernandez Buzz Tyler beat Jerry Brown dq Main event. Show looks weak aside from that match. Was this at the height of the post-Sam St. Louis war? Show does 5,200 which for that card seems decent. 1/21/83 St Louis King Kong Brody beat Bobby Duncum Kerry Von Erich beat Missouri State champion Harley Race dq Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Crusher Blackwell and Crusher Ayala Greg Valentine beat Bobo Brazil Rick Martel beat Ox Baker dq Bob Orton Jr beat Brad Armstrong (sub Tommy Rich) Spike Huber and Brad Armstrong beat Kim Duk and the Beast Gone for a bit and comes back with this. Then he misses a couple of shows and... 3/11/83 St Louis King Kong Brody no contest Crusher Blackwell Harley Race beat Rick Martel Missouri State champion Kerry Von Erich beat Super Destroyer Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Dewey Robertson and Greg Valentine Ray Hernandez beat Spike Huber Kim Duk and Yasu Fuji beat Mark Romero and Manny Fernandez Roger Kirby beat Buzz Tyler 4/15/83 St Louis Crusher Blackwell beat Kerry Von Erich to win the Missouri State title Greg Valentine beat Dick the Bruiser Rick Martel beat Bob Orton Jr George Wells beat Bobby Duncum Yasu Fuji and Kim Duk beat Spike Huber and Bulldog Bob Brown Roddy Piper beat Omar Atlas Dewey Robertson and Eddie Mansfield drew Manny Fernandez and Buzz Tyler No clue what these are drawing but at this point it's clear Blackwell is seen as a main guy. They didn't give the Missouri Title to just anyone. Interesting that the Brody match happened here before it happened in the AWA. 4/29/83 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Crusher Blackwell COR Harley Race beat David Von Erich Rick Martel and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Kim Duk and Grizzly Adams (sub Yasu Fuji) Greg Valentine beat Buzz Tyler George Wells drew Roddy Piper Bob Orton Jr beat Dewey Robertson Manny Fernandez & Mark Romero & Liz Chase beat Ray Hernandez & Bill Cody (sub Eddie Mansfield) & Leilani Kai 5/13/83 St Louis Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell to win the Missouri State title Kerry Von Erich and George Wells beat Kim Duk and Roger Kirby (sub Yasu Fuji) Greg Valentine no contest Bruce Reed Bobby Duncum beat Bulldog Bob Brown Bob Orton Jr beat Manny Fernandez Dewey Robertson drew Rick Martel Mark Romero and Jerry Ho beat Ray Hernandez and Jerry Brown 6/10/83 St Louis Harley Race beat Ric Flair to win the NWA World heavyweight title Crusher Blackwell won an 18 man battle royal Andre the Giant & Bruce Reed & Dick the Bruiser beat Crusher Blackwell & John Studd & Bobby Duncum Bob Orton Jr drew David Von Erich Gene Kiniski no contest Dick Murdoch Rick Martel beat Greg Valentine Roddy Piper drew Bulldog Bob Brown George Wells and Mark Romero beat Dewey Robertson and Ray Hernandez Jerry gets a Flair main even in St. Louis as the Missouri champ which would seem to be a pretty big deal. Dropping the title to Harley after a month isn't surprising. Probably was the plan all along as Harley owned a piece of Central States which was wedded to St. Louis in a lot of ways by this point. Race v. Flair was probably what they were building to though I find it notable that Blackwell was STILL put over huge working in the big six-man and winning the Battle Royal. 7/15/83 St Louis Tournament for the Missouri State Title Round 1 Bob Orton Jr beat Manny Fernandez Jesse Ventura beat Emile Vachon Blackjack Lanza beat Jerry Ho Bruce Reed beat Baron Von Raschke Crusher Blackwell beat Buzz Tyler Dick the Bruiser beat Bobby Duncum Ric Flair beat Bulldog Bob Brown Dewey Robertson beat George Wells Hulk Hogan beat Kortsia Korchenko Round 2 David Von Erich beat Bob Orton Jr Bruce Reed beat Jesse Ventura Blackjack Lanza beat Dick the Bruiser dq Ric Flair beat George Wells? Hulk Hogan nc Crusher Blackwell Round 3 David Von Erich beat Blackjack Lanza Ric Flair beat Bruce Reed Ric Flair beat David Von Erich to win the Missouri State title Another interesting result as Flair goes from NWA Champ to Missouri Champ replacing Harley who replaced him as World Champ. Notable that Blackwell didn't job and went to a no-contest with Hogan. He's still being protected like a top guy would be. 8/5/83 St Louis NWA champion Harley Race beat Ric Flair Hulk Hogan & Dick the Bruiser & Ron Ritchie (sub David Von Erich) beat Crusher Blackwell & Blackjack Mulligan & Baron Von Raschke Bob Orton Jr beat Rick Martel Super Destroyer beat George Wells Barry Windham beat Tonga John Bulldog Bob Brown and Princess Victoria beat Roger Kirby and Leilani Kai Ron Ritchie beat Steve Hall 8/26/83 St Louis Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell COR Dick the Bruiser no contest Super Destroyer David Von Erich and Jerry Lawler beat Blackjack Mulligan and Blackjack Lanza Barry Windham beat Baron Von Raschke Roger Kirby beat Jerry Ho (sub Dusty Rhodes) Bob Orton Jr beat George Wells Ron Ritchie and Mark Romero beat Sheik Abdullah and Buck Robley Blackwell v. Hogan is now a big feud coming out of the Missouri tournament. 9/16/83 St Louis David Von Erich beat Ric Flair to win the Missouri State title Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell Barry Windham and Austin Idol (Sub Dick the Bruiser) beat Super Destroyer and Bob Orton Jr Iceman Parsons beat Roger Kirby Blackjack Mulligan beat Jerry Ho Buck Robley beat Ron Ritchie George Wells and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Jerry Brown and Sheik Abdullah 10/8/83 St Louis NWA champion Harley Race beat Hulk Hogan dq Barry Windham and David Von Erich beat Crusher Blackwell and Super Destroyer Blackjack Mulligan beat Buzz Tyler Iceman Parsons beat Tonga John Buck Robley beat Jerry Ho Ron Ritchie & Bulldog Bob Brown & Angelo Mosca Jr beat Roger Kirby & Jerry Brown & Sheik Abdullah 10/21/83 St Louis Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell Cage Match Missouri State champion David Von Erich beat Super Destroyer Dick the Bruiser and Jimmy Snuka beat Blackjack Mulligan and Killer Karl Krupp Jimmy Snuka (sub Barry Windham) beat Roger Kirby Iceman Parsons beat Doug Sommers Buck Robley beat Booker T Bulldog Bob Brown and Angelo Mosca Jr beat Jerry Brown and Tonga John Blackwell v. Hogan gets strung out for several shows which tells me it probably did fairly well. Cage Match blowoff suggests a hot feud, though I know the first show here did under 5,000 which was bad for St. Louis. I wonder if Blackwell interfered in the Race match costing Hogan the title? I would almost bet on it. 11/25/83 St Louis NWA champ Ric Flair beat David Von Erich AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera beat Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown Austin Idol beat Denny Brown Iceman Parsons beat Blackjack Lanza Paul Orndorff beat Steve Olsonoski (sub Rick Martel) Tiger Mask (sub Buck Robley) beat Angelo Mosca Jr 666 beat Ron Ritchie Paul Kelly and Velvet McIntyre beat Scott Farris and Peggy Lee 12/9/83 St Louis David Von Erich vs Harley Race Dick the Bruiser and Rick Martel beat AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera dq Bob Orton Jr vs Rufus R Jones Austin Idol vs Buddy Landell Ron Ritchie vs Paul Orndorff Buzz Tyler and Mark Stuart vs MEB and 666 Paul Kelly vs Bobby Fulton The Sheiks in now and working semi-mains billed as the AWA tag champs. Wonder how this looked to the fans who had seen them feud a year or so before. I would guess there success in the AWA at the gate led to Verne - who still had a piece of the St. Louis office as I recall - sending them down South to help pop business. The first fo these shows did almost 9,000 which was a very strong number for St. Louis at that point. 1/6/84 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat King Kong Brody dq Harley Race beat David Von Erich to win the Missouri State Title AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera beat Dick the Bruiser and Gene Kiniski (sub Ted DiBiase) Dory Funk Jr drew Bob Orton Jr Ron Ritchie beat 666 (sub Buddy Landell) Tully Blanchard (sub Buck Robley) beat Buzz Tyler King Cobra and Tiger Mask beat Roger Kirby and Scott Farris 2/17/84 St Louis NWA champ Ric Flair beat Barry Windham Missouri State champion Harley Race vs Wahoo McDaniel Dusty Rhodes vs Luke Graham AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera vs Buck Robley and Ron Ritchie Dick Slater vs Cobra Blackjack Mulligan vs Bulldog Bob Brown Mark and Jay Youngblood vs the Grapplers Sheiks still around but slipping down the card on that Feb. show and man did they have some oddball challengers for those belts in St. Louis. First listing here is actually pretty cool as they appear to have been part of a triple title match billing up top on a show that was deliberately stacked. 3/30/84 St Louis Missouri State champion Harley Race beat Wahoo McDaniel Bruce Reed and the Blackjacks beat Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera & Luke Graham Jimmy Garvin beat Chris Adams Dick the Bruiser beat Scott Farris One Man Gang beat Hacksaw Duggan dq Dick Slater beat Buzz Tyler The Fabulous Ones beat TG Stone and Pat Kelly Ted Oates and Les Thornton vs The Grapplers Six-man semi-main on a very strange show. This would be the last appearance of the Sheiks in St. Louis. Blackwell misses the May show but was scheduled in the semi-main. 6/1/84 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair drew Kerry Von Erich Blackjack Lanza and Blackjack Mulligan beat Crusher Blackwell and Sheik Adnan El Kaissey Wahoo McDaniel beat Kimala dq Jim Duggan beat Luke Graham The Grapplers beat Ted Oates and Tom Ivory (sub Jerry Oates) Tommy Rogers beat TG Stone Marty Jannetty beat Roger Kirby 6/22/84 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Wahoo McDaniel Crusher Blackwell & Buddy Roberts & Michael Hayes beat Blackjack Lanza & Billy robinson & Iceman Parsons Missouri State champion Harley Race beat Curt Hennig Nick Bockwinkel beat Steve Olsonoski Ted Oates (sub Jim Duggan) beat Luke Graham Marty Jannetty and Tommy Rogers beat The Grapplers TG Stone beat Art Crews Ted Oates beat Akio Sato Blackwell likely with his last appearance as a Sheik like heel in the first match with Adnan in St. Louis. Show does almost 7,700 a good gate for St. Louis though you would think most of that would be attributed to the main event. Interesting to see him teaming with the Birds against a hilarious opposition on the second show. Still in semi-mains. 7/13/84 St Louis Kerry Von Erich and Barry Windham beat Ric Flair and Crusher Blackwell Missouri State champion Harley Race no contest Wahoo McDaniel Missing Link beat Rufus R Jones Fabulous Moolah and Peggy Lee beat Wenona Little Heart and Desiree Peterson Marty Jannetty drew Grappler #1 Grappler #2 beat Tommy Rogers Ted Oates beat TG Stone 8/3/84 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich Iceman Parsons beat Missouri State champion Harley Race dq Blackjack Lanza vs Sheik Adnan El Kaissey Tommy Rogers vs Grappler #1 Beard vs Mask Crusher Blackwell and Luke Graham vs Jim Brunzell and Buzz Tyler Dick the Bruiser vs Chris Markoff Marty Jannetty vs Ted Oates Art Crews vs Gypsy Joe Blackwell in what looks like it would have been an incredibly great tag team main event on the first show, though it did shit business of barely 4k. Second show he is in the mid-card which was almost unheard of for him in St. Louis, but this was right around the time he would be setting up for his face turn IIRC. 9/14/84 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Harley Race AWA tag team champions The Road Warriors beat Dick the Bruiser and Blackjack Lanza Chris Adams beat Jimmy Garvin Stella Mae French beat Precious Crusher Blackwell beat Jim Brunzell COR Tony Atlas & Ted DiBiase & Buzz Tyler beat Ox Baker & Hacksaw Higgins & Mr Saito Gypsy Joe beat Tommy Rogers Marty Jannetty beat TG Stone His last heel appearance in St. Louis? 10/5/84 St Louis King Kong Brody no contest Crusher Blackwell AWA tag team champions The Road Warriors beat Ted DiBiase and Buzz Tyler Tony Atlas beat Paul Ellering Hacksaw Higgins beat Buzz Tyler (sub Dick the Bruiser) Jim Brunzell and Bulldog Bob Brown beat the Grapplers Mr Pogo beat Tony Russo (sub Steve Olsonoski) Gypsy Joe and The Animal beat Marty Jannetty and Tommy Rogers Weak show, but notable that Brody v. Blackwell was a good enough spike in the AWA where they took it to headline St. Louis. Still you have to wonder what the fuck the logic was in booking this card the way it was booked. Talent is insanely thin. 12/7/84 St Louis Crusher Blackwell won a 20 man battle royal Kerry Von Erich beat Crusher Blackwell Wahoo McDaniel beat Hacksaw Higgins (sub King Kong Brody) Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Gypsy Joe and Mr Pogo Rufus R Jones beat Sheik Abdullah Roger Kirby and Ken Timbs beat Mark and Jay Youngblood TG Stone beat Dusty Wolfe (sub Blackjack Lanza) Steve Olsonoski and Marty Jannetty beat Buzz Tyler and Mike Bond Blackwell in a double duty main event. Card did a little less than 5,500 which was a solid number but nothing great. Misses the first show in 85, which did 8k with Flair v. Brody on top. 1/25/85 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair beat Kerry Von Erich King Kong Brody beat Kimala dq Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell Terry Funk beat Wahoo McDaniel Texas Death Match Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Ken Timbs and Mr Pogo Candi Divine beat Diane Von Hoffman Rufus R Jones beat the Outlaw Marty Jannetty and Art Crews beat Sheik Abdullah and Gary Royal 2/15/85 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair drew King Kong Brody Missouri State champion Crusher Blackwell no contest Harley Race Wahoo McDaniel beat Gene Kiniski Sgt Slaughter beat Missing Link Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Sheik Abdullah and Mr Pogo Rufus R Jones beat Roger Kirby (sub Baron Von Raschke) Marty Jannetty beat Ken Timbs dq Art Crews and Dusty Wolfe (sub Dave Peterson) beat Gary Royal and TG Stone 3/8/85 St Louis AWA champion Rick Martel vs Nick Bockwinkel Missouri State champion Crusher Blackwell vs Bulldog Bob Brown Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell vs Masked Superstar and Mr Saito Sgt Slaughter vs Wahoo McDaniel Jimmy Garvin vs Mike Von Erich American Starship beat Marty Jannetty and Steve Olsonoski Dick the Bruiser beat Mr Pogo dq Rufus R Jones vs Ken Timbs Blackwell v. Race is rolled out a couple of times once on a stacked show that does nearly 11,000 which was probably the last huge number in St. Louis territory history. The company is really all over the place at this point. Blackwell gets his second Missouri Title run. They put him against the unimpressive Central States forever Bob Brown. Blackwell misses all but one of the next five shows where he is in a mid-card tag match. 8/2/85 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair vs Harley Race Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell to become the Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser vs Mr Pogo Texas Death Match Michael Hayes and Terry Gordy vs Curt Hennig and Steve Olsonoski Rufus R Jones vs Starship Coyote Bulldog Bob Brown vs Sheik Abdullah Marty Jannetty & Dave Peterson & Art Crews vs Super Destroyer & Gary Royal & Boo Thomas Harley does double duty. By this point Blackwell's health was on the decline and promotion was clearly winding down though Flair and Race are still around as often as they can be to try and keep things alive. 9/20/85 St Louis NWA champion Ric Flair vs Harley Race King Kong Brody vs One Man Gang AWA champion Rick Martel vs Jimmy Garvin Crusher Blackwell vs Kamala NWA Jr champion Denny Brown vs Gary Royal Larry and Curt Hennig vs Mr Pogo and Boo Thomas Bulldog Bob Brown vs Dave Peterson Art Crews vs Sheik Abdullah plus a midget tag bout The last result with Blackwell in it. On a stacked show he's in a prominent match albeit one in the mid-card. Really hard to get a feel for if Blackwell was a draw of any magnitude or not in St. Louis. What is indisputable is that he was a star and a star from the jump right through until the end. He was consistently in semi-mains or main events, was given the Missouri title twice and was booked against everyone from Harley to Flair to Andre to Hogan. The "he was only a star in the AWA" talking point that I sort of conceded on the podcast appears to be wrong.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc The honorable Dave Musgrave has carried me to a quality discussion of the WON HoF. We touch on all kinds of stuff, candidates that aren't on the ballot, guys who are on the ballot and maybe aren't that strong, guys who will be on the ballot and how they may fair, who we think should go in, who we think will go in, et. We plan on doing more of these in the future on a wide variety of subjects so I figure this deserves it's own thread and I got the green light from Loss so here it is. Enjoy, criticize, comment, et.~!!!

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc This is a link to a new podcast Dave Musgrave and I are doing called Wrestling Culture. We cover the HoF this time so I thought it was relevant for this thread. May start a thread for all the shows once we have a few in the bag if it is okay with Loss and Will.

84 was a strong year. Shockingly strong considering they had lost Hogan and Heenan who were in some respects the most important parts of their show. 85 was when the shit hit the fan. There are a ton of reasons for this including continued raids, Verne running insane split crews with an already thin roster, not booking there three top draws for big chunks of the year (though to be fair they may have had no say in this with Blackwell's health and the Roadies commitments elsewhere), the senseless Westward expansion, et. But 84 was a pretty good year.

There's no case for Danielson other than work. I tend to agree with John that Danielson is a lock.

The point is not that Angle is directly comparable to KENTA in terms of strength as candidates. The point is that the trend is for the scale to slide down in terms of who is and isn't a Hall of Famer. Angle and Ultimo are the worst picks, but there are other guys who are in who have candidacies that are marginal compared to the original class. If you look at WHEN people got in even some "obvious" picks don't seem so obvious. My point is not "I fear KENTA will get in because Angle got in." My point is "I fear KENTA will get in because of standards trending down over the years and wonder where those standards will be by the time he gets on the ballot."

I actually think Sasaki is a decent candidate from the perspective that as voters have rewarded guys like HHH for being on shows that drew well and positioned to look like real draws when perhaps they weren't, Sasaki "fits" an established mold. I wouldn't vote for him, but he's the sort of guy that I think should be on the ballot as a point of comparison if nothing else. I don't think he's near the candidate Hamada is though.

Looking at that now JYD is another guy who seems like he should at least be a strongly considered candidate - he's never been on the ballot.

Really not interested in a protracted, jdw-style argument. You accuse me of ignoring, I think it's pretty clear you are reading my statements wrong on purpose and shaping your argument against a strawman "meme" that has hardly been the theme of the last several pages of the thread. To walk you through again: I am not saying Miller exclusively gets in on AWA work. Just that AWA work is a CLEAR strong suit for him. I am not saying Miller was ignored entirely because he had some great years in the AWA. Just that the general lack of knowledge/attention played to the AWA probably hurt him as a guy who was getting a first look - if he even got a first look at all. I am not saying only AWA guys were blind spots. Not sure where that was implied by anything I've said. Showing that Backlund or Carpentier didn't get in the first time is hardly evidence that Miller not getting in the first time didn't have something to do with the fact that his AWA run was ignored/unknown. I am not saying Meltzer is alone in having "some holes" about the AWA. Shit I had and still have some holes about the AWA. Most smart fans do. It's not a territory that has been talked up or explored in great depth to near the degree Crockett, WW(W)F, World Class, Memphis, Stampede or arguably even Georgia and Florida have been over the years. I blame myself for not thwarting this nonsense by adding an extra bullet point. Here it is: I am not saying Dave is totally blind to the existence of HoF talent in the AWA. Obviously people got in on the first run. What I do believe is that Dave and many smart fans in general (if not MOST smart fans) are less interested in the AWA and that that lack of interest does reflect who gets on the ballot. I also think it is at least possible that the general obscurity of Bill Miller had something to do with that lack of interest in the AWA. I actually don't think any of these points of view are controversial or indicative of some sort of all encompassing "Meme" that is supposedly being expressed about how unfairly maligned the AWA is. Read Kevin's notes on Blackwell. Read mine. I am sure you can find flaw with some of it on my end as I'm new to the AWA. There is not a lot of this mythical "Meme" that you seem to be suggesting is a driving force behind all of this. I will say flat out that Miller not getting in in the first run could have nothing to do with the AWA at all. I don't know. I used the word "probably" when perhaps I should have used the word "possibly." Ultimately I don't give enough of a shit to argue about it anymore because we seem to agree in the sense that the crux of my position is: "the AWA has been an under reported, under covered, and under profiled part of the WON through the years." -jdw I would extend this a little bit to the broader smart fan universe but in general this was the point of what I was getting at. Flyers v. RnR's is an interesting comp but a losing comp. It will go nowhere until and unless people are willing to WATCH the High Flyers matches. I think I might put some numbers together for the Flyers when we are closer to the AWA set hitting but I still think it's futile. To be sure there are arguments against them (nowhere near as influential as the other tags that are in/strongly considered, never stars outside of their home territory, were "only" around for 9 years, et.), but there are quite a few arguments for them. I've got an empty house for a few days so if I'm feeling masochist I may go ahead and make some sort of comp to the Express based on limited look at the figures but I'm not convinced that would be an effective approach. I actually think in some respects the RnR's are more of a sacred cow tag team than Brody is a sacred cow big guy which I know sounds strange since he is in and they aren't but I can't help but feel that way. I do agree with you that there may not be a solid comp for Blackwell. I may do a Gordy List for him later for shits and giggles though.

Puro isn't dead in UK circles. UK circles make up a shitload of the Figure-Four crowd. If I were to hazard a guess more and more will get votes over time. I find it VERY hard to believe no puro guys get in from the 00's. Mind you I can't think of one that I would vote for. But that's irrelevant. I'm not representative of the majority of WON/F4W types. You've got to figure KENTA and CIMA both get on the ballot off the top of my head. Not sure who else. I hope you are right about this John, I'm just not as sure you are that the old guard can hold off the young turks. Especially if someone starts talking "affirmative action" style campaigns for guys from certain places in certain areas (this was a line pushed by Todd Martin and others to support Michaels).

I don't want to get into a protracted argument about this because I think it is largely irrelevant but to clarify: I am not saying Miller exclusively gets in on AWA work. Just that AWA work is a CLEAR strong suit for him. I am not saying Miller was ignored entirely because he had some great years in the AWA. Just that the general lack of knowledge/attention played to the AWA probably hurt him as a guy who was getting a first look - if he even got a first look at all. I am not saying only AWA guys were blind spots. Not sure where that was implied by anything I've said. Showing that Backlund or Carpentier didn't get in the first time is hardly evidence that Miller not getting in the first time didn't have something to do with the fact that his AWA run was ignored/unknown. I am not saying Meltzer is alone in having "some holes" about the AWA. Shit I had and still have some holes about the AWA. Most smart fans do. It's not a territory that has been talked up or explored in great depth to near the degree Crockett, WW(W)F, World Class, Memphis, Stampede or arguably even Georgia and Florida have been over the years. Mostly I think this is pointless. Miller is in. We both agree he should be. Blackwell is not on the ballot. I believe he definitely should be. I think the High Flyers should be too but I have no illusions that that can be done or that they wouldn't immediately fall off the ballot. Seems like a wasted effort. Blackwell doesn't. Not sure if he's a better candidate than Morales by the way. But then I think Morales is a pretty good candidate.

I think saying the AWA had NOTHING to do with Miller not getting in on one of the first couple of waves and pointing to Backlund not getting in on the first wave as support for that statement is...interesting. I don't think anyone thinks Dave has been fair to Backlund over the years and this is coming from someone that was a Backlund Hater until very recently. I'm not saying Miller didn't get in exclusively because he was an AWA guy. But I think it is possible - perhaps likely - that he was not the radar because of where he made his name. As for KENTA.... Would you and Dave have put someone with Angle's career in on the plane ride? Ultimo? Hell even Jericho? I think there will be pressure to get representatives for the 00's in from both the U.S. and Japan. As more voters are brought in it is obvious the standards have slid over all. I think it's likely that the combination of those three things (lowered standards, a desire for "equity" in representation of eras with some voters/readers, the continued expansion of the voting base) makes it likely that a guy like KENTA will at minimum be treated as a very serious candidate. Much more seriously than Taue has been treated. As for Danielson I'll be shocked if he doesn't get in within three years of being on the ballot at the absolute most.

What's interesting about Bill Miller is that he is another guy that was probably screwed over some by Dave's AWA blind spot. Miller absolutely belongs in and probably should have been a first class guy. But the AWA is an undercovered and discussed territory and has been for years. I have no doubt if a team like the High Flyers had the exact same body of work and record as a top act/draw in any other territory they would at least have been on the ballot. Blackwell clearly belongs on the ballot. Martel is more controversial and I don't think is a terribly strong candidate based on the AWA, but it's hard to see how he's a worse candidate than Hennig and given the fact that he did some good business in Canada is probably better. As an aside I was re-reading the Buddy Rose obit the other day and Meltzer was dead wrong about Rose being way past his prime in the AWA in 86. The four best guys in the promotion were Rose, Hennig, Bock and Hansen, Rose shows no signs of slowing down and he was hardly "hidden" in tags as he looked great when he had to fly solo whether it be a squash match with someone like Billy Anderson (seriously an awesome squash), a match v. young Jannetty that holds up as one of the best singles matches of Marty's career, or a long Battle Royal where Buddy was a huge emphasis of the match and had to go it alone when Somers got dumped. He also undersold Rose and Somers as a team. Probably not an AWA bias thing per se but worth mentioning in the context of this thread since Rose is one of the guys I strongly feel should be on the ballot. As for Japan I stand by my comments on Tim's show that a WON HoF with KENTA in it and Taue not on the ballot is going to be very bizarre. And I fully expect that to happen.