Dylan Waco

It's not the point at all. No. Saying the term is stupid when obviously it has been understood by many people is an excuse to not even try to understand the point that is being made. There is no point being made because it is only applied to matches/wrestlers people don't like. It is a blanket way to dismiss a company/wrestler/match without pointing to any real flaw.

If Edge goes in that is pretty much the official death knell for me even being able to pretend to give a shit.

Actually knowing that Kris is a Lucha guy and being ignorant as fuck on the subject (though I have watched a FUCKLOAD of Lucha over the last two years and am now kicking myself for not starting earlier) who do you think are the best candidates out of that field?

I'm not nearly as interested in the WON HoF as I was ten years ago, but I will say that I would like to see the RnR's get in and I think in a strange sense they have a more compelling case than the Midnights even if the Midnights were bigger draws (and I'm not sure that's necessarily true, though Corny's scrapbook makes a strong case that they were a real draw as a tag team). RnR's were: Great in ring team, with no partner swaps unlike the Midnights, who had success as draws opposite the Midnights and in Crockett. Widely regarded as the quintessential blowjob babyface team, they indisputably had as many or more imitators than any team in history and "playing Ricky Morton" became a synonym for Face In Peril for a reason. Large quantity of high end matches over a 12 year period. The fact that they were the biggest draws in SMW during the period when SMW was at least a somewhat succesful regional promotion doesn't hurt either.

To be fair, Swagger v. Christian is something I would regard as a really great match. But it's from the ECW show that is defunct and I wanted something that really stood out from that "brand."

Yeah I tried to stay away from "home runs." The point as I see it wasn't to rattle off a "top ten" or even a "top five" but just to point to a variety of matches that I thought could be called "good" without any real qualification.

Rey and Henry had four good matches on tv in 06.

Hennig has a lot of good AWA matches. Not sure if this is better than the best of the Bock matches. I probably like it better than the best Lawler matches but I can see an argument for Lawler matches. There is a Gagne match that is on or near the same level. There is also a Wahoo match that should at least be in the discussion.

Not sure why I was thinking that was from the Showboat too. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the other match. If you watch the Blackwell angle before it it gives the match a bit of context.

What's worse than that is "Me and my opponent are going to have a great match/MOTY" Kurt Angle is the king of that one

They have two matches from the showboat that I know of. I liked one a lot, loved the other, and can't see any argument for them being anything less than very good. The better of the two decimates any WWF Hennig match I've seen by a margin so large it's comical: My review of the "weaker" match. JIP though I don't think much of anything is lost. Hennig is working a headlock as a base early and Hansen is fun trying to roughneck his way out of it. Hansen takes over but Curt gets a near fall on a sunset flip and then fires back with some stiff shots. Hansen takes over with a big kick and gets a near fall off of an elbow drop. Nice suplex near fall from Hansen and they do a great spot with Hansen going for a bulldog, but Curt rams him into the turnbuckles and Hansen stumbles head over heels into a near fall for Curt. Curt tries to go back to a headlock and gets nastily crotched on the top rope. Hansen locks on a stomach claw of all things and then hits an atomic drop. Cool chop exchange but Hansen says "fuck this," takes him down and locks him in the Boston Crab. Hansen drops the hold and then hits a huge back body drop on Hennig. He goes to throw him over the top but Hennig gets tied up n the ropes hand man style where Hansen works on him. Hall hits the ring for the save. Nowhere near as good as the other match of theirs I've seen but still a really good match. My review of the "Holy Shit this was great" match. Hennig hits the ring to save Blackwell and Hansen is still in his gear flying around for Curt. Hansen post Hennig on the floor and then runs over with a chair and beats the fuck out of Blackwell's ankle. Back in the ring and Curt gets in some licks while still selling the posting. Hansen falls to the floor but comes back in and is still getting his ass kicked by Curt. Fun near fall as Curt kicks Stan in the face twice. Hansen comes back with a quick shot and hits an elbow drop for a big nearfall. Curt is really great as he keeps selling his ass off but makes another comeback punching and kicking wildly at Hansen. Hennig takes a wild sternum first bump into the turnbuckles and Hansen start kneeing him in the face. Hansen goes to the outside and starts hammering on Hennig while standing on the apron, but Hennig fires back and Hansen does a great sell job of a turnbuckle shot, then gets slammed and hit with a splash from the second rope for a huge nearfall. Hansen presses Curt through the ropes to the floor when he kicks out and slams his face into the stairs. He then literally slams Curt on the front row of chairs which is just awesome. Back in the ring he reaches through the ropes to throw a cheapshot and Hennig punches Hansen hard as fuck, then drags him to the floor and gives him the double boot eye rake on the floor which is awesome. Back in the ring Hansen hits a belly to back suplex almost out of desperation for a nearfall. Great camera shot of Hansen hear clutching at his jaw and trying to work out the kinks of the Hennig punches. He stands up and hits a piledriver but Curt's leg was on the bottom rope so the fall gets broken up. He goes for a second piledriver in the middle of the ring but Curt does this incredibly great delayed, slow motion, back body drop that makes the impact look especially brutal. Hennig is leaned over and Hansen follows behind but gets caught with a wild mule kick by Hennig for a nearfall. Hennig then his a fucking monkey flip of all things for a nearfall. They are on their knees trading desperation blows and Hansen kicks Curt in the face. Curt ends up going for another monkey flip, but Hansen pushes him off. Hansen misses an elbow and Curt rolls him up for a nearfall but they are in the ropes. Cool spot as Hansen desperately clutches the ropes to avoid an Irish whip, but Hennig gets it and hits a dropkick for a great nearfall. Great out of nowhere nearfall off a cross body from Hennig. Hennig hits a desperation belly to back with both men out. They get to their feet and Hennig hits a kneelift and a forward roll for a two count as time expires. Great, great match, despite the telegraphed time limit finish. Possibly the best thing I've watched so far as this started as a fight and never really slowed down.

Don't forget to write-in Buddy Rose

Haven't seen it, but it sounds like I should track it down.

True, but if you look I rarely comment on them at DVDVR where they have large threads dedicated to them

Glad you liked it. I LOVED Masters last year as he was consistent as fuck and had quality matches with everyone he worked. But I have said before and will say here that MacIntyre is the Masters of this year and this match proves why.

No problem with an outsider perspective and people can post whatever they want to post but here is the thing. What is more "self consciously epic" about Punk v. Cena than a match like Warrior v. Savage or Austin v. Bret? What is "boring" about in ring WWE? I get the general thematic argument Jerome makes, but I don't see a lot of specifics and he has pretty much said we are not going to get specific comparisons to matches from different eras. That's his choice and I don't blame him for not watching something if he thinks it sucks. I think TNA sucks. I don't care for Dragon Gate stylistically at all. But I don't comment on either promotion very much and when I do I have no problem giving pretty specific reasons why I don't enjoy what they are offering.

I would be more than happy and I will provide youtube links. My favorite "random" WWE match of the year so far is Chris Masters v. Drew MacIntrye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx560rlH8zs Probably the most "under the radar" match from Superstars last year, David Hart Smith v. William Regal from the last show of the year A Raw Match I liked a lot at the time, Dolph Ziggler v. John Cena from Dec. of last year A great match from early in 09 that was in a lot of peoples MOTY discussion, Jack Swagger v. Christian A match others like more than me, but I still think is safely "good," Daniel Bryan v. Miz from Feb of this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqUHWDB7C0A Pretty random sampling and by no means a "top five." Pretty much totally random though I did decide to go the route of "no guys in a match more than once" just for fun. But since it's his thread I'll add five Rey matches: Will's favorite, Rey v. Tyson Kidd from Superstars in March of last year Rey v. Luke Gallows in one of my favorite unheralded matches of last year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t3JsBDyYDw Really short Rey v. Drew MacIntrye match from early this year that I liked a lot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drbaHFMKwU0 Rey and Alberto Del Rio have a better contemporary CMLL style main event (talk about a flawed style) then actual CMLL wrestlers do in Jan of this year Rey drops the I-C title cuz DRUGS to John Morrison in 09 on SD Again I tried to mix up the opponents and I left off some really obvious stuff. Also wanted to focus on just the last couple of years for the heck of it. None of these would be near my top five Rey matches from tv since his time in the company in fact. Not sure any of them would even make a top twenty.

Kurt Angle is in the WON HoF. The End

98 has no business being on the list. Really a "not good" year overall. You could make the case - with very little effort - that nearly every year this decade has been better.

Again I'm not arguing that in-ring is an island unto itself. What I am arguing is that the over all package has flaws now. It had flaws then. The flaws are worse in many respects now, but it doesn't change the fact that I could sit down and with relatively minimal effort name 500 good matches that aired on WWE TV in the last five years. I can't do that in any other comparable five year period with any other promotion. As far as Jerome's posts I guess the only reply worth making is "ok." If you can't give me any reasons beyond "self-conscious epic!" and "boring" for why you don't like the current stuff that is fine and I can't blame you for not watching something you don't like. No clue why you feel the need to comment so much on stuff you rarely watch and hate when you see but at least now I know that you aren't even going to bother to give my particulars about why older WWF matches are quality and newer WWE matches aren't.

My opinion on both of those matches has shifted a lot over the years. Much more positive on Rock v. Hogan and much more down on Flair v. Taker. Didn't have either on my SC list.

The argument is that week-to-week the in ring quality now is higher than it has ever been. I don't disagree with your points about context, but here is the thing - I hated a lot of the booking in 00 too. I hated a lot of the booking in 96. 95. 99. 03. 90. et. et. et. I hated the booking in a lot of different periods. Was it as bad as it is now? Not sure. I know the characters were better than for the most part and that is an area that does matter and one of the reasons why I think the very best stuff from say 91 stands out more than the very best match from say 06. But do I think the very best stuff from 91 is better than the very best stuff from 06? No and even if someone disagrees I struggle to think of how it could be considered better by a wide margin. The point isn't to strip wrestling down. It's that at this point in my life I watch wrestling for different reasons than why I watched it when I was 15. Some of that has to do with changes in the wrestling landscape, some of that has to do with me. I'm not saying "ignore the bad!" Fuck I pointed out the bad. I'm saying the good exists and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't because there are a lot of things I don't like. If that were the case I would have thrown in the towel in 1990. In my view there are plenty of matches that are made better and enhanced now do to context. Punk/Cena is one obvious example but it's not the only one.

My guess is Greatest TV Of All-Time is not something you would agree to anyway since you think the last high quality match in the history of the promotion was Rock v. Hogan. Again I think this whole thing probably deserves a spinoff thread at this point.

Dave set the tone for people who (i) who read the WON at the time, _and_ (ii) watched it *after* him. By that I mean *both* of those things. He certainly didn't set the tone for me: I watched it before he did, and before he wrote it up in the WON. Lord knows there were plenty of matches we disagreed on: I liked Baba & Hansen vs Misawa & Kobashi more than he did, and his review of the Kawada-Williams Carny Final had a little disagreeing shout out to me that I'd forgotten. I'd go further than that: I doubt he set the tone for people like you who have watched AJ '93 without having his reviews and star ratings in front of you. Dave's views can't have meaning if you don't know them. It's a lesser match. Haven't argued that it was anything more than watchable and decent, while trying to get a sense for what "quality" means. Perhaps I'll make this easy. Here's Raw this week: John Morrison pinned R-Truth in a falls count anywhere match at 10:48 Kelly & Eve defeated Nikki & Brie Bella at 3:08 Jack Swagger pinned Alex Riley at 4:23 Kofi Kingston & Evan Bourne defeated Michael McGillicutty & David Otunga at 4:43 Alberto Del Rio pinned Rey Mysterio Jr. at 12:50 Which of those matches go in the "quality" column? I assume ADR vs Rey. But is it 5 out of 5? 2 out of 5? Are we at the level where 5-6 minute matches can go into the quality column, in which case a lot of JIP matches get to make the cut in AJPW and NJPW? John The only match this week I really paid attention to was Rey v. ADR which I liked an awful lot. Tag match is something I may go back and watch again. The others are skippable to bad. I have no problem including 6 minute matches in the discussion and can't think of a single good reason not to. I think Hash v. Zangiev was pretty clearly one of the best matches on the NJPW Set and that was what, seven minutes? No clue why length should work against or in favor of a match in and of itself.

Perhaps you should skip the pedantic shit next time and just ask the question you want answered. It's very hard for me to believe you were confused when the question you were allegedly seeking an answer for was drowned out by talk of Meltzer's views on a twenty year old match.