Dylan Waco

Not pissy at all, I was joking, I assumed it would be obvious to a master of message board humor like yourself

I'm not burying Paige. I'm being honest about Paige and not grading her on a curve because she's a diva. People can't tell us how good/great someone is for a couple of years, and talk about how the Diva's/women need to get pushed more and then hunker down behind a wall of "they are divas give them a break" when they fall on their ass. Paige has been unimpressive her entire time on the main roster. I think she has potential to be very good, but she's not there yet and I am going to call her on it. There are great woman's wrestlers even now. Satomura shows up a a couple of times a year and usually blows me away. Bill, you are high on Lovelace and what I've seen from her I have enjoyed a lot. I really like Kana a lot. Hell Alicia Fox has had some really fun moments on WWE tv this year. Paige however has been consistently disappointing since she was called up.

Here comes the apologista.

Lana saving the show after Sek's favorite wrestler Paige embarrassed all rational fans

Lana speaking the truth here

I expect the allegedly great Paige to not look worse than Cameron. That's a pretty low hurdle to clear.

AJ was running laps around Paige in that match. The myth of Paige the great worker needs to be put to bed. She's not. Not even close.

Boy Paige is being badly exposed in this match

Usos v. Wyatts was good,but I completely disagree about the brevity of the first two falls not hurting it. It exposed the needless nature of the stip. Third fall was great for what it was, but I thought last months match was clearly better

Can't wait to bury this show

Highlight was Alex Riley picking Heath Slater to win the Battle Royal

I would consider Cesaro, Bo, Miz and Sheamus all reasonable contenders to win the battle royal.

LMAO, at Naomi and Cameron getting a promotion

I'll be honest. On paper this card is pretty "eh" to me. The booking of Ambrose v. Rollins has annoyed me enough in the last week where I'm no longer excited for it and while I really do love the Wyatts/Usos dynamic, I also feel the feud needs to finish up, or escalate to something bigger (cage match, street fight, something). The booking for Rusev and Swagger has been great, but I have no faith that the match will deliver because Swagger is so hit and miss. The rest of the lineup is a big "no thanks." Hate four ways, don't care about the divas matches, have no interest in Bray v. Jericho, and I'm sick of battle royals. Also they added Adam Rose v. Fandango to the card because apparently there wasn't enough garbage on it. The best chance for the show to be good is for Rollins/Ambrose and Wyatts/Usos to get a combined hour or more which I don't see happening. Predictions Naomi over Cameron Rose over Fandango Miz winning the Battle Royal (sets up a title v. title feud with Sheamus) Harper/Rowan over Usos AJ over Paige Rusev over Swagger Wyatt over Jericho Ambrose over Rollins Cena over Orton, Kane and Reigns, possibly with Kane costing Orton the match. Would not be shocked to see a Brock run-in even though he's allegedly not scheduled til tomorrow night

Jericho winning tonight would be monumentally stupid

The booking of last nights X-Division gauntlet is proof that TNA is the worst fed of all time. I cover it in more detail here: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/07/18/tna-impact-july-17-review/

Where did Jerry say he needed the internet to show him the greatness of pro wrestling?

I have no clue how to approach this thread at this point, but one thing that is completely unarguable is that the pre and post Observer newsletters were massively different.

I'm a big fan of Skyler and have a soft spot for Jake Manning. What episode of PWX tv is the I Quit match on? I watch their shows semi-regularly and missed it. I've got more things to say in response to stomper and Bill that I'll get to tomorrow.

OJ, what on Earth does Hechicero struggle with as a rudo? He's about the only rudo in Mexico this year who I would rate strongly when it comes to heeling, controlling a match from the top, getting the most of limited opponents, et. By contrast you are talking about Charles Lucero as the second best guy in Mexico, and while I love the old dude, that second Silver Star title match had some of the lightest/most poorly applied matwork I've seen in a lucha title match/maestros match starring a supposedly excellent worker since I started watching lucha weekly. Why does Lucero get a pass for that?

Not going to c/p or reply with quotes to everything stomper wrote above, so instead I'll reply to specific things he noted. Re: Sheamus - For my money he's the most complete wrestler in the promotion by far. Ambrose is more over, and I would listen to an argument that he's better, but the Steve Austin tribute "press into punches that don't connect and look horrible" is something that annoys me on some level, even if it fits his character. Sheamus on the other works really snug in everything he does. He's the most underrated bumper in the company, to the point where I'd argue he's the best guy in the company at delivering with a big bump or two every match and getting it over as a meaningful transition that adds to the match. He has some of the best offense in wrestling, with multiple potential finishers - something I'm a huge mark for - a nice mix of snug strikes, power offense and even dives/moves off the ropes. He is very good at structuring his matches around natural heat segments. His finisher is protected really well, and he does a better job in mixing up his finish and signature spots than anyone else in the company. His selling is very good, with his body part selling being better than most anyone around at this point. The one real argument against him this year is that he doesn't have the homerun match, but he's not been positioned to have it. Even without it his best matches v. Titus and Ambrose were some of my favorite t.v. matches of the year, he's been the best guy in several multi-man matches, I really liked his series v. Christian, Barrett and Cesaro, and he always makes the best of the situations he's in. Re: Titan - I think he's probably the best guy of the modern CMLL guys who work that style (La Sombra, Volador Jr., Dorada, et.), but it's not a style I'm in love with, and as I mentioned before I think he's been one of the most well protected guys in wrestling over the last two years in terms of who he's been booked with. That is not his fault, and I still rate the guy. Hell I think the 12/1 match with Averno and Virus match from this year were both brilliant. But I actually thought the Casas match was somewhat disappointing, and I am still waiting for him to have that one match, or even lengthy exchange in a trios, where he completely knocks me on my ass. Re: Hechicero - I completely understand the argument that a number one case can be tough to build on sub-ten minute matches, and in most years I would be much more guarded about heaping praise on a guy with that as his biggest plus, but this is a weird year where I think there is exactly one guy who has put on a resume of "big time" matches with consistency, and at the end of the day he's the fifth or sixth biggest star in New Japan (Ishii). On top of that I think it's easy to sell Hechicero's year short if you look at it based solely on time logged. I thought him and Cavernario were the best of the guys working with the second tier guys in the En Busca tourney and getting compelling matches out of them, which was not easy. There matches against each other - including the final which I thought was a brilliant performance by Hechicero, perhaps even the best individual performance I've seen out of anyone this year - were rock solid and as good/exciting as you'd want. Hechicero was really good in both of the cibernetico's book ending the tourney (though not the best guy in either), and was sharp in the great trios match held in the middle of it (which is my lucha MOTY, though again he wasn't the best guy in it). He's also shown himself to have the Virus like ability of being a guy who can make trios match with middling-to-weak talent pretty good almost entirely on his own. I'm not completely sold that I'd even rate him above Cavernario at this point, though Hechicero's audible saved the day in their final match, but I also don't see how he could be disqualified as a number one contender considering what the current landscape looks like. Of course we value different things, but I would be interested to see who stomper would rate in the absolute top tier for the year and maybe talk about what he looks for in a number one level guy. Re: Thatcher - There we just completely and totally disagree. To me Thatcher, Gulak and Busick (though I agree Busick is at least somewhat different stylistically and more obviously flawed) are just about the only guys on the indies that combine good wrestling and fresh spots with real build. I'm not saying they aren't flawed, and I think Gulak can look "lost" for fleeting moments (less so Thatcher in my view), but they are not only doing something different, but something that I feel is more logical and interesting than anything else on the indies. The differences in styles make it a clunky comparison, but when I look at a match like Adam Cole v. Kevin Steen, v. something like Thatcher v. Gulak from Mania weekend, I can see how the rounds system would be a turn off and can even see how there may have been moments early that felt a bit disjointed, but to me it was transparently obvious that the match build and built and built, whereas the Cole v. Steen match had really good build by modern ROH standards, wasted on a horrificly stupid finish that negated everything they'd done up to that point. Perhaps my favorite trait about Thatcher is that he's gone from the guy who worked Finlay and in a fun match that felt REALLY long, to a guy who's matches now get progressively more and more exciting and have a true feeling of escalation that most independent wrestling completely skips over in lieu of hightspots, near fall collecting, and pandering for chants. I will say that he's not my number one, and I want to see him work more this year before I rate him at that level, but I've enjoyed every match of his I've seen, and the cool grappling spots is really just a piece of that. Side notes....On Hardy I think he was outstanding in the Omega tag with Jeff v. The Briscoes, so that would be his "elite" match. On AAA guys, I prefer Villano IV (liked the brawl with Chessman and LOVED the Blue Demon brawl way more than most), Aerostar, Australian Suicide, Machine Rocker, Pentagon Jr. and Steve Pain at minimum to Chessman. People talk up Pentagon Jr., and I've grown to really like him with my binge AAA watching in recent weeks, but to me the real breakout guy this year has been Australian Suicide who is one of the most dynamic "spot" wrestlers around and seems to get better every week. He's not as complete a wrestler as Aerostar yet, and maybe not as good as Pentagon Jr., but he's someone that really jumps out at me every time I watch him. Not sure any of those guys would make my top fifty at this point....I'm behind on the Brit scene, but I did enjoy Dean Allmark busting his ass to carry that scrub on the big Wrestle-1 show. Still he's a guy who's a bit overexposed with me as his formula match is less compelling to me after seeing it forty times. Re: kanyonkutter I could see rating Ishikwa/Sato as a team, but not as individuals. Which I admit is a weird take, but as singles I have zero interest in them. As a tag they are violent as fuck, psychos, that eat smaller guys alive, but give enough to have good matches. Naito is weird to me because he has moments where I think he is really great, but his selling is just terrible. The guy only knows two speeds - getting his ass kicked or running through his shit. Ishii was able to temper that some (as was Tanaka to a lesser degree last year), but when left to his own devices he reverts right back to form. I really want to like the guy but I'm just not there with him yet. I want some NOAH recommendations (just starting to delve in some recently, though I did watch a few of the early in the year shows months back), but I've been warned that I Harada is not my type of guy. I've grown to really like Konley as he's grown into being a solid heel, but I never want to see Gargano wrestle again.

That's a shame because he's been quite good in OMEGA, ROH and NEW. As for the comparison with Jeff....no way in hell has Jeff had the better year unless I missed some really amazing Jeff peformances at the beginning of the year in TNA (lol). Jeff HAS looked better this year, and I am looking forward (kinda) to his stuff on the Impact NYC tapings, but he was the fourth best guy in the great OMEGA tag, where you could at least make an argument that his brother was the best.

I love threads like this not only because I'm a list geek, but also because it means I might get pointed to some new wrestlers and/or matches I should be paying attention to, and helps me to fill in the gaps with those who I have been following but maybe not as closely as I should. I also love to hear peoples explanations for this sort of stuff, so now Bill is going to have to tolerate me dissecting his list, not so much because "he is wrong," but because I want to see why he rated some of these folks where he did. So, starting at fifty and working my way through in chunks... 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman This is an interesting grouping of guys. I haven't thought a great deal about how I would rate people so far this year, but the only one of these I'm positive would make my top fifty is Rollins (Akebono and Ziggler would easily make my top 100). Still I have no problem with him being this "low," as I feel like his offense leaves a lot to be desired. What really stands out with me in this group is Chessman being on the list. Is that based entirely on his match with Villano IV? Did I miss something else of note? 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka Obviously I think Hechicero is too low. He's one of the only guys I would seriously consider for the number one slot. I am happy to see Ced show up as I think he's really underrated and is having a sneaky good year. I'm not much of a Cole fan, but I would be interested to hear a more detailed account of why you see him as a top fifty guy. I watched that LuFisto v. Athena match and thought it was okay, is there anything else I should watch? Tanaka is funny because he does a lot of things that would annoy me in the hands of most people, but somehow gets away with it. I'm a mark for the guy, but don't see him as a top fifty guy unless I've missed some quality stuff from Japan (have I?). 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma I like Mark Henry and Emma a lot, but I don't see much meat on their resumes this year. Of course a lot of this depends on how much you've seen, and how much you value you put on one great performance (Emma v Paige) which is an interesting sub-discussion that might be worth having. Escorpion has had a fine year but feels down from last year. I have actually liked Steen more this year than anytime in recent memory. Still the only one of these that I am sure I would have in my top fifty at this point is Honma, who has a couple of marquee performances and is virtually always the best guy in the multi-man/tag matches he's in. 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto What Hashimoto do I need to see? I like him to a degree as a tag guy, though he's never struck me as the best guy in any match. What are his strongest matches of the year. Volador is like La Sombra to me - I don't hate him, but I have no real interest in him as a wrestler and he almost never does anything I think is better than okay. Still I'd like to see what got him his ranking here. Kidd has had a "fun" year," so I won't question it. Glad to see Tempers and Briscoe so high, honestly I'd have both guys higher (I think). Tempers might be the best guy on Earth that no one really watches, though he's such a "simple" wrestler that in saying that I'm laying the foundation for "boy he's overrated" talk. 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena If this was going by the Observer calendar I could almost see a case for Averno this high just based off his match with Titan from 12/1. But if this is going off the actual year I don't see it. In fact offhand I can't think of anything Averno has done this year that has stood out at all. What am I missing? Christian and maybe even Reigns could be seen as being high, but I could see the other side of those arguments. I've liked AJ this year and oddly have no problem with that rating. 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick By Fuego Guerrero, I assume you are talking CMLL Fuego? If so I like him more than many lucha fans do, but his claim to fame is basically "guy Virus carried to two very good/great title matches." Del Rio I like, but don't see the argument for him this high this year. No problem at all with the other three, though I THINK I might rate Mark above Jay. 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan What has Banks done this year that is must see? I have never been a huge fan of the Oficiales, so I am not feeling the 911 pick, but I'd watch anything you recommend. Sheamus to me is too low. He's my top WWE guy this year other than maybe Ambrose. I like Titan, but he's had some very favorable opponents this year. I don't think he's a top twenty guy. 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 2 names stick out like sore thumbs to me here, Lovelace and Tajiri. Tajiri is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, but the couple of matches of his I've seen this year he did little or note. What match(es) did I miss? Even as a huge mark for him he feels astronomically high here. Lovelace I need recommendations for. I enjoy some women's wrestling, but generally think the best stuff from that scene gets wildly overrated. 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy I wouldn't have Titus that high, but love that you have him that high because he busts his ass every time out and he very well COULD be a top ten guy if he got a real push. I continue to be a guy who really likes Zayn, but not at the level of his biggest fans. Hardy is kinda like Titus here - I wouldn't have him that high but I have no problem with it. He's busted his ass ass this year, the feud with the Briscoes has arguably been the feud of the year, and he's been in several matches that I would rate very good-to-great. 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher Goldust and Casas are two of my favorite guys ever, but I don't know about having either guy as a top five guy this year. It's possible I'm forgetting about some really good Dustin stuff from early in the year, and Casas has been great when given chances, but I'd have to get a hard pitch for both. Bryan certainly had some great stuff in the time he was around, but he's fallen behind other guys to me. Same with Hero, though I get that a lot of people have loved his indie run. I have no real problem with Thatcher at number one, though he's be a bit lower for me. Looking at your top fifty these are the names I would absolutely have on mine: Seth Rollins Cedric Alexander Hechicero Tomoaki Honma Shaun Tempers Mark Briscoe Roman Reigns John Cena AJ Styles Shinsuke Nakamura Jay Briscoe Biff Busick Sheamus Charles Lucero Tomohiro Ishii Rush Luke Harper Dean Ambrose Titus O'Neil Cesaro Sami Zayn Matt Hardy Goldust Chris Hero Daniel Bryan Negro Casas Timothy Thatcher I'm on the fence on Akebono, Dolph Ziggler, Titan, Rey Escorpion and maybe even Christian. Without thinking on it too terribly hard the guys I would consider notable omissions would be Virus, Cavernario, Drew Gulak (all three I would consider at least fringe number one contenders), Cachorro, Dragon Lee, KUSHIDA, Jun Akiyama, Blue Panther, Arkangel de la Muerte, Bray Wyatt, Wade Barrett, The Usos, and Vordell Walker (not really "notable" the way the other ones are, but I think he's had a good year, albeit not at the level of his year last year).