JerryvonKramer

Do you ever stop being a twat? Rather than admit that you screwed up that argument, instead you shift to a place where you think you can win instead. How about a "yeah, actually now you mention it Jerry, my point was totally irrelevant. Sorry for fucking up yet another thread with my inane bollocks." Total wanker.

Where I listed the distinction between 1 and 2. The distinction being that in one case the concept comes first and the worker second, and in the other the worker comes first. At no point did I say that a total repackaging is the only option. At no point did I say "hey, what this thread really needs is jdw pointing out the totally fucking obvious difference between a repackaging and tweaking". Why? Because it is not at all important to the point I was making. Not at all.

Right, so what? I was saying Vince was doing things a bit differently with MDM. In answer to this post: If these guys had their schtick down before coming to WWF, great, it makes my argument stronger. The details are of virtually no importance other than some nice "oh, right" style trivia. So HTM was HTM before WWF? Great. Nice trivia. There's nothing else to it. John -- someone who consistently has a go at my reading comprehension skills -- has misread this. He thinks I'm trying say all workers fit into those two categories. I'm not. I'm saying there's a distinction between a basic repackaging and what they did with MDM and later characters. All this is pretty clear if he'd read the fucking thread and stopped trying score petty points for a change.

Did they? I said this: The only important thing is the concept coming first and then casting the worker. We don't need a third category. Jerry

Does Meltzer have any stuff about Rose in the very early Observers? Does he have ratings for Portland matches?

Fuck off Jerry

I would never usually do this, but I'm am extremely interested in this topic. It came up on the last Titans show when I discussed it mainly with Johnny (Sorrow) and Pete (shoe) (but the others chimed in too) and then again on WTBBP with Chad (soup23). Johnny's and Chad's takes on this topic are really different. As I mention, I know from previous discussions, Dylan is closer to Chad's position. I honestly don't know where I fall on this and think there are good arguments on both sides. I know we've discussed it before, but I'd honestly like to go over it again. For people who don't usually listen to either of these shows, I've taken the unusual move of pulling out the 10 minutes of audio in question and I've spliced them together. This is not a shill, I'm just very interested in opinions on this topic. Here's the audio: http://www.sendspace.com/file/csqu1e In case you're not sure, first 8 minutes is from Titans, second 8 minutes is from WTBBP. If someone is feeling generous and wants to summarise the arguments made for those who don't have 15 mins to spare to listen, then I'd encourage you to do that. Context for this discussion on Titans was us discussing Bruno vs. Larry at Spectrum and/or MSG and the electric crowd making the match, and then on WTBBP the crowd shitting on Rock n Roll Express vs. Doom at GAB 90. I haven't been able to stop thinking about this topic since the weekend.

Before or after they hired Callous though?

I'm only half-joking with this, could be interesting if people treat it with even a quarter of the seriousness as they do the WON HoF. I think Meltzer has botched that HoF, for various reasons, but well let's see if hypothetically we could do any better.

Fuck Meltzer. I'm establishing this. Act one: appoint Dylan Waco as President and Chairman. Agenda for first meeting: 1. Criteria 2. How many fiat picks for Class of 2013 3. Who are the fiat picks? 4. Ballot for 2014 Deadline: Christmas Day.

That's a problem. You might as well ask a group of kids to pick between Toy Story and DW Griffiths's Intolerance. One of those choices has no chance of a fair vote.

But the categories are wide aren't they? As Chad outlined.

There should be a little box on the ballot that says something like "have you seen enough footage of this guy to make a call" and the percentage should only be taken from those who mark "yes". With historical candidates replace "footage" with data / information. System is too flawed otherwise.

What's the clear main in each case? Just interested if we'd all pick the same matches.

This seems like an effective promotional tactic for said podcast.

This all strengthens my argument, excellent.

Glad someone else said this. I'm with you there Loss. Dreading sitting through GAB 92 agian for this reason.

I would point you to the Bruno vs. Larry stuff from 1980, but so far that's been carried more by the promos than by the matches in my view. I am not convinced AWA would turn you round on him either -- the Bock matches are fun, they have a very fun dynamic (master heel vs. master heel jr.) -- but I don't know if they'll make you a fan. The point here is more that he's not "the most boring wrestler of all time". That's all you need convincing of.

Starter for 10: Mr. Saito match from February Tokyo Dome show in 1990.

Thirded, and I'm not even a very big fan of his.

Yup. Other than WM9, the world title match isn't the "real" main event for any of the cards JVK listed. And Hogan wound up being in the impromptu main event for that anyway. Although Summerslam 92 is a bit of an anomaly as happening live in England Bret-Bulldog would have been considered the main event but for the North American audience it was Savage-Warrior. Right, and? The point is that it doesn't matter what was on last or what the title was doing. They put Bret vs. Shawn on last at Survivor Series and that was a title match, but the pushed main event is Savage and Warrior vs. Flair and Ramon (ended up being Savage and Perfect). My point here is that they were running double main events similar to what the WWF had been doing for years in the 70s and early 80s. Middle of the card or end of the card, doesn't matter. If it's Bruno or Hogan in the middle of the card, you say something like "oh he's upstaging the title match -- which is now in the graveyard slot", if it's Bruno or Hogan on last you say "oh they are burying the world title by not putting it on last". The problem is not with co-main events or ordering, it's with a big marquee star who is a bigger star than everyone else.

Bock is the name I always hear mentioned.

More like watching the entire Dangerous Alliance kick the shit out of 123 Kid ... Actually I'd love to watch that. Nevermind, nevermind.