JerryvonKramer

Incidentally, if OJ ever gets to the "Battle of Atlantic City" (Andre / DiBiase vs. Scicluna / Jerry Valiant (7/26/79)), I've been sporadically writing in a question to DiBiase's podcast asking 1. Why they booked Atlantic City, 2. Why it was taped and aired. This remains a complete mystery. I recall it being better than it had any right to be.

This is a very minor thing but I feel like Gorilla stopped referencing the IC title runs of Tito and Greg Valentine after this point. I also don’t think he mentioned Steamer as a former IC champ in 1991. Correct me if wrong.

Now this I absolutely must see!! Watching tonight

I've just discovered another thing. Remember at the opening of Superstars, Vince and Jesse would be there in front of the crowd? Or on Challenge, Gorilla and Heenan would be there? Apparently all of that was green screen and shot in the studio with the arena just as the backdrop. This had never occured to me but of course it makes a lot of sense as the commentary was recorded in three-week batches at Studio 1. This makes Gorilla Monsoon's schedule look a little lighter. Assuming the commentary for the house shows was recorded there live (and since Dick Graham is on all the Philly shows, we have to assume that was the case), Monsoon would at most be working about 21 hours A MONTH. That's 3 hours for Challenge tapings, 8 hours for Prime Time studio bits and all four major House Shows when they were running them (MSG, Philly, Boston, MLG) plus a 3-hour PPV. Considering most people work a 40-hour week, this is not the heaviest load in the world in exchange for 1.5 x prelim workers pay from EVERY SHOW WWF ran. Granted, he'd have a bit of travel between the big Arenas, and when they were running LA that would presumably be a flight. But still, not bad at all.

In terms of emotion and character work, he comes into his own late on as “grumpy Jumbo” circa 89-92. I can see the argument that he’s a bit bland before that but the intensity of the work in the Choshu feud as well as the number of classics early when tagging with Baba (late 70s / early 80s) is a resume few others would ever achieve.

Tonight, I realised something that kinda blew my mind. I had assumed that Gene Okerlund, Sean Mooney and Lord Alfred Hayes took turns to do Event Center, but NO. It's almost always: WWF Update with Gene Okerlund Special Report with Lord Alfred Hayes Event Center with Sean Mooney This is the first time I've noticed this in 34+ years. Sometimes before a big PPV Okerlund would do "Report on Wrestlemania" or similar, but there is remarkable consistency to him doing Update, Hayes doing Special Report and Mooney doing Event Center at least from 1988 to 1993. WWF Update seems to have started as a segment in 1984 with Vince himself doing them, but pretty soon he was replaced by Lord Alfred Hayes doing it from a desk with a WWF mug next to him, but from 86 it seems like Gene takes over and it is a large part of the show once Superstars and Challenge start. Gene is sometimes at a desk in front of a green screen but most of the time he's standing with the monitors from the control room at an angle behind him, desk on a phone by his side, often you can see one or two staff members there. in 1987, Craig DeGeorge takes over with a blue backdrop which has the month prominently displayed and this lasts until about April 88 even though DeGeorge is still there. Update then moves back to the 86 Gene presenation. This seems pretty consistent until he leaves in 93. Update tends to be focused on one particular feud or angle, some key event happened at a house show, something like that. Update is often "brought to you from the pages of the WWF Magazine". After Gene left, Lord Al and Monsoon did most of them. Special Report, as far as I can see, is nearly identical to Update only it's Lord Al there and the desk has some merchandise on it. It's always focused on one particular feud or angle. I've found a couple of Special Reports from 87 where it's DeGeorge in place of Hayes, but it's mostly Hayes from 88 to whenever he leaves in the mid-90s. Special Report is often "brought to you" by the latest VHS release. I believe Event Center was introduced in 1987 as a brainchild of Bruce Pritchard to replace all of the localised market promos Gene Okerlund would have to do on the road. I have found a few odd ones with Billy Red Lyons and Raymond Rougeau from 1987 but it is almost exclusively the domain of Sean Mooney. These effectively replaced the promo interivews done by Okerlund, Resnick, DeGeorge and others in front of the big blue backdrop. Event Center is Mooney hyping an upcoming live card with insert promos from one of the matches. There would be 3 Event Centers per show hyping the same card. Usually a big house show such as MSG, Boston Garden etc, but these were localised -- so Mooney would do several versions to go out in different markets. This was recorded with Mooney at a desk in front of the same monitors used in Update and Special Report, it's just shot at a different angle.

I compiled this a few years back, of possible interest to current topic.

I'm still convinced that if you added up all the ticket sales nationwide that the aggregate revenue for pro wrestling in America was likely higher in 1978 than in 1988. Look at the crowds WWF or NWA were drawing in formerly solid towns and in many cases the gates are less than half what they were at peak. St. Louis is a banner case, but it's the rule rather than the exception. And by the end of the decade almost none of these places were being run every month either.

Come to really appreciate the Rogeaus on late 80s WWF house show cards, great character work and Jacques is a great smarmy heel. I think if I made a ballot today he’d probably make it in the 90-100 range.

Watching August 88 LA card and Ventura joins commentary in the middle of the card again! I think him and Graham just wanted an excuse to hang out in all honesty!

Just watching this LA card randomly and Gorilla is super critical on commentary during this match. I kinda dig the Gorilla-Graham announce duo though. This match was a bit weird and disjointed. Owen trying to make a name for himself but the pacing was all off for me, maybe Horowitz just couldn’t be carried to something decent but it was all a bit spotty. Can imagine it caused a buzz in 88.

Edit: Ventura’s gone by the next match which is Andre vs Duggan but then Duggan gives Graham the 2x4 to look after and Andre wants the timekeeper to have it and tells him to sit down and shut up. Graham has been super fun on this show. Wondering if he’s a bit underrated in this role.

Cheers mate, pronunciation never my strong point. I’ve thrown in a random House Show tonight. The July 88 LA Sports Arena show. And mid-way through Rockers vs Conquistadors, the second match, Ventura randomly comes out and sits in on commentary so you have an insane four-man booth of Monsoon, Ventura, Graham and Mooney. I believe this was Mooney’s second ever assignment. Before Ventura comes out he struggled to get a word in. Monsoon big timed him a number of times, every time he threw to Mooney he’d bring up his lack of experience and how he’s not knowledgeable about wrestling. “I’ve been around a lot longer than you” etc Several times he flat cuts off or no sells Mooney’s comments and throws to Superstar. Tough gig. Then after Ventura comes out Ventura and Graham drop all kayfabe and just talk about how they remember working out, they start up with gym talk. Graham puts over his calf work. Ventura claims Arnie was asking about Graham’s calves. Meanwhile poor rookie Mooney is trying to get over his scripted talking points about the Rockers and is just being no sold and talked over. Hilarious stuff really. This is all I do now watch random house shows or episodes of Challenge and stuff like that ha ha.

I put a lot of this into a documentary of sorts here. Good to see some old friends in comments.

I've built up a picture now of the broadcast team over the Golden Age. Strikes me that Vince aimed for a team of at least 9 on-screen personalities, 3 who could do play-by-play, 3 who could do colour, 3 who could do the Mean Gene role. The versatility of Lord Alfred Hayes seemed to cover a lot on what I've called "the C-team" since he could do the Event Centre updates and go on colour. He stays all the way until 1995 and is there much longer than you'd expect. There are also I think two distinct lines: 1. The Ken Resnick -> Craig DeGeorge -> Sean Mooney-> Todd Pettigall line 2. The Jack Reynolds ->Rodger Kent-> Rod Trongard-> Tony Schiavone-> Jim Ross line The Resnick line was clearly intended to be able to cover all the general duties of Gene Okerlund with any additional commentary a bonus. Recall Okerlund did commentary in 1984-7, but his chief duties were hosting All American, giving event centre updates and conducting interviews. In shoots both Resnick and DeGeorge have said they were brought in chiefly to lighten Okerlund's load. By 1986 he was presenting All American, Spotlight, TNT and doing all his usual stuff and was getting burnt out. The Reynolds like was clearly intended as a long-term Monsoon replacement, since I've heard that Monsoon ideally just wanted to present Prime Time with Heenan and would have happily dropped Challenge or his House Show stuff. Reynold, Kent and Trongard are all searches for that replacement but it's really when Tony comes in that you can see it as they stick Tony on Challenge and one suspects it was with a view to phase Monsoon out. However, that didn't happen because he left. The eventual replacement would end up being Jim Ross. By 1991, Mooney -- who stuck around much longer than Resnick or DeGeorge, had built enough enough experience to cover play-by-play and it seems Mooney and Hayes recorded voice overs for all the Prime Times from the debut of the new format starting February 18th 1991. You can see the January 91 Primetime shows still have different commentators. By this stage, they use a format where there's the odd match from MSG and Superstars plus Prime Time exclusive matches from TV tapings for Superstars and Challenge. It seems that by 1992, there was a Prime Time banner and someone who went live will have to explain how that worked since the exact same tapings later then have a Superstars set (with a screen). They must have taken those banners down live. The situation with different commentary teams on Prime Time -- if it was something that bothered Vince -- took at least six years to bother him. I have found one episode of Prime Time from May 11 1987 which has an absurd number of commentators (Gorilla Monsoon, Bobby Heenan, Vince McMahon, Jesse Ventura, Bruno Sammartino, Dick Graham, Ken Resnick, Lord Alfred Hayes & Ron Bass). I watched through it and it actually helped to make you think there was tons of stuff going on from many different places, so I kinda liked it. The 91-2 Prime Times with Mooney and Hayes on commentary feel much smaller. Also watching back some of the 1990 Superstars aroud the time Piper comes in to replace Ventura and Vince is JUST INSANE on those shows. The whole product feels like it is on coke around that time!

I have now added Maple Leaf Garden broadcasts to the spreadsheet. Do any old Canadians (my old mate Kelly?) know who actually broadcast the MLG shows in Canada? Were they broadcast at all in US or were these shows exclusive to Canada? Gorilla seems to dominate the MLG broadcasts and notably much less varienty there, although it does seem like Sean Mooney was "trained up" there and Ventura to some extent in 1985. Regular broadcasts seem to get increasingly spotty from 1988 and in the final two years it is handed soley to the Mooney / Hayes "C-team" extraordinaire.

This seems to have emerged since I made this thread and is just awesome. One of the absolute best Dory singles matches after the 70s. Loved it. Real intensity.

While people are listing specific moves: Harley Race knee drop Greg Valentine elbow drop Jumbo running knee Ted DiBiase fist drop Bobby Heenan turnbuckle bump Ted DiBiase “180” vertical bump Flair flop Greg Valentine “tree trunk” face plant or back bump Bob Orton Jr Superplex Barry Windham Suplex into a pinfall Kobashi “fire” hulk up Dory Funk Jr Butterfly Suplex Dory Funk Jr forearm Billy Robinson European Uppercut Paul Orndorff piledriver Sgt Slaughter bump from top / turnbuckle Stan Hansen lariat Jumbo running clothesline

Okay no idea!

Okay in that case highest floor is 100% either Arn Anderson or William Regal. Highest ceiling to my mind is Hase or Yatsu.

Going with just one per: Selling: Jack Brisco Comebacks: Bruno Basing: not familiar with this term Control Segments: Yatsu Charisma: Hogan Being a face: Steamboat Being a heel: DiBiase Face in Peril: Morton Hot tags: Jumbo On the mic: Flair Adding intensity to feuds: Terry Brawling: Terry Athleticism: Savage Ring IQ: Bockwinkel Highest floor: not sure what means Highest ceiling: ditto TV matches: Garvin Big matches: Flair Best looking/most impactful offense: Hansen Best arena: MSG

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but a much simpler way of putting the above is: Syndication WWF Superstars = WCW Worldwide WWF Challenge = MACW / WCW Pro Cable WWF Prime Time = World Championship Wrestling / Saturday Night WWF All American = Power Hour or Main Event All American was always a recap show while Power Hour and Main Event were meant to be proper shows, and after Turner bought our Crockett it seems they used their ownership of the station and the wrestling company to load up TBS. Seems Vince was content or had to make do with just two shows on USA for a long time. WWF Spotlight was a syndicated alternative to All American and again was a pure recap show.

This popped up in my "notifications" and I noticed my ten-year old post saying that the Paul Roma match with Ted can't be from 1990. Well mystery solved. The June 3rd 1990 match aired on Challenge and he has the black suit. The green suit bout is from January 1989 from this taping: And it aired on the 1/9/89 Prime Time. It is simply mislabeled on YouTube. See, even ten years ago I knew.

I've been catching up with some of the more recent shows, JR's reboot, some Schiavone stuff and whatnot. Conrad had improved 100-fold if not more since I last heard him. He used to be ignorant, annoying, had bad timing etc, but finally he seems like all the hours of shows with legends he's learned to love stuff he didn't see as a kid himself and is now a really fun co-host. Took him long enough, but the shows are so much better for it.

Some notes. 1. From about 1986 on, it seems Vince was looking for someone to replace Monsoon longterm. Jack Reynolds was brought in in September 1984 to take over from Vince presenting All-Star Wrestling -- to me, the fact he hired Reynolds in and didn't ask Monsoon, shows that for whatever reason he wanted someone else from the get go. Reynolds was not only the host of All-Star but was the first host of Prime Time with Jesse Ventura in January 1985. However, it didn't last and Monsoon had replaced him in both positions by July 1985 as well as maintaining commentary for the house shows. Maybe by 86, Vince was happy with Monsoon doing Challenge and Prime Time, but wanted someone else for the house shows? But look at what happened: after Ken Resnick bombed, they tried to bed in DeGeorge, didn't work, tried Kent, Trongard -- didn't click -- tried Mooney, but he was better as an interviewer, and in the end Schiavone seemed the ideal replacement but he went back to WCW so Monsoon was stuck doing MSG until it stopped airing. But I really do get the impression Vince was constantly trying to replace Monsoon. Or maybe Monsoon wanted to slow down? 2. If you look at the chopping and changing, it's clear that the MSG Network, PRISM and NESN broadcasts were something of a pain for the crew for whatever reason. Knowing Vince's attention to detail, I think it really bugged him to have different commentary teams and all these odd commentary teams featured on Prime Time and at some point maybe in 1990 or 1991, I know they had Mooney and Hayes dub over the MSG matches. 3. Vince's random appearance at MSG in Jan 1988 is because Monsoon had a mild heart attack. 4. Lord Alfred Hayes really was the workhorse of these televised house shows, but for some reason I get the impression that Vince was constantly looking to replace him and it looks like he does whenever he can. 5. The hideous Bruce Prichard, Mike McGuirk, Pete Doherty combo was restricted to Houston shows and a few random tapings in 1987 for matches featured on Prime Time or Spotlight. Particularly odd is that some of these are Superstars tapings and on the Superstars matches it is Vince, Jesse and Sammartino on commentary. Which means they brought in Bruce, Mike and Pete just for those matches (WHY???!!) 6. LA Arena cards were only televised on Z Channel in 1988 and for a bit of 1989. Teams are largely the same as those listed for Boston above. 7. The odd Meadowlands card also aired on MSG network, although rarer than one might imagine, and largely with whatever the MSG team was at the time. 8. Vince restricted himself almost exclusively to Championship Wrestling / Superstars after he took over. He barely missed a single show. 9. Ventura's debut on colour is January 7, 1985 on All Star, which means when he did Wrestlemania 1 in March, he'd only been commentating for three months, and it was only his 6th actual time doing it since they taped 3 shows at a time (and he'd done 5 All Star tapings). 10. A lot of the three-man teams involving Heenan are not actually three-man teams but guys subbing for Heenan when he goes off to manage.