JerryvonKramer

No I meant make two different polls each with those three options in, and the two winning promotions get their 4 top four guys in the tourney. The OTHER way to do it would be to take ANY 8 guys from those 6 promotions as wild cards. So Colon might be the only person from Puerto Rico represented. In a way, I kinda prefer that idea because it'll make for a stronger field. I really would prefer to see Tully in for Crockett than for South West though, especially if 85 is included.

I think there are a few territories that are not disputed, so let's say they are 100% in: 1. WWF 2. Crockett 3. AWA 4. New Japan 5. All Japan 6. Mid-South 7. Memphis 8. Portland 9. Georgia 10. World Class 11. "Freelance" 12. Montreal 13. Europe 14. Mexico (assuming this is not disputed) That leaves 2 from 6: - Continental - Central States - South West - Stampede - Puerto Rico - Florida Why not split these up into two "first past the post" polls of 3. 1 of Continental, Central States and South West slugging it out to represent another Southern USA territority 1 of Stampede, Puerto Rico and Florida to take the final spot Agreed?

Stopping in 84 would hurt the midsouth guys I think.

Dylan, there does seem to be late 70s Florida stuff out there. There are several rather massive packs (no seeders) on XTC with I'd say over 100 matches from that period. No one has ever uploaded it to youtube, but there is some stuff there. I wonder if it would be giving Funk too much of a massive advantage if you make him freelance and stick someone like Choshu in for All Japan? Another way of looking at it, is that if we assume Flair and Lawler are going to be early frontrunners, you're only getting a small portion of Terry and coming and going was pretty much part of his gimmick. Another freelancer I'd point to, who might make up a 4 with Chavo, Murdoch and Funk is Terry Gordy. He seemed to have that Texan thing of never staying in one place for too long. If he became a freelance pick it would open up space for Hayes in World Class.

What's a traditional response? More or less, what I would have said a couple of years ago. I used to have this little joke in school that I was "traditionally tall". Age 11-13 I was taller than most people in the year at 5'8, I'm still 5'8 now

This is jumping the gun a bit, but I want to go through KrisZ's picks and suggest one or two alternatives for each territory. Just to get the ball on that discussion going. WWF 1. Hulk Hogan 2. Bob Backlund 3. Randy Savage 4. Roddy Piper This is a very solid 4, and it's hard to think of many people to put against them. Tito Santana would be one person. Possibly Don Muraco as well. And finally -- and this is a very outside pick -- has anyone REALLY explored Iron Sheik aside from the Backlund and boot camp matches? Don't know how much of his 79-80 run made tape but I'd warrant there might be some hidden gems in there. AWA 1. Nick Bockwinkel 2. Crusher Blackwell 3. Sgt. Slaughter 4. Curt Hennig The obvious person to look at as an alternative would be Rick Martel. Sarge moved around quite a lot and I wonder if (without seeing his 85 stuff) as a pure AWA worker Martel might not be a stronger pick? I haven't seen a single pre-WWF Martel match where he hasn't been at least "very solid". All-Japan 1. Jumbo Tsuruta 2. Genichiro Tenryu 3. Stan Hansen 4. Terry Funk Hard to argue with those four. Choshu and/ or Yatsu would be alternatives but it's hard to see a case for including either of them over Hansen or Funk. If you tot up total amount of time spent in the promotion and no. of matches though, I wouldn't be surprised if Choshu and definitely Yatsu had more than Funk in All Japan. If early 80s is the focus though, Funk is almost a pre-requisite, unless you run with that "freelancer" category. New Japan 1. Antonio Inoki 2. Tatsumi Fujinami 3. Kengo Kimura 4. Akira Maeda My exposure to New Japan is limited as I've yet to work through the set. I wonder if there's not a case for Choshu here too though. World Class 1. Kerry Von Erich 2. Kevin Von Erich 3. Chris Adams 4. Terry Gordy Would it be out of the question to include Michael Hayes? Few people make me think of that promotion more than he does. Mid-South 1. Junkyard Dog 2. Ted DiBiase 3. Hacksaw Duggan 4. Butch Reed This looks about right, but Mr. Wrestling II might get a look in. If there's no "freelancer" category then where do we put a guy like Chavo Guerrero? Clearly he's in the top 25% of the workers of that era, but he never stuck around anywhere long enough to be associated with a promotion. He seems to have been a staple of the old LeBell LA promotion but LA isn't being represented here. Florida 1. Dusty Rhodes 2. Kevin Sullivan 3. Barry Windham 4. Dory Funk Jr. Since mostly everyone thinks Dory sucks, I wonder about Jack Brisco for this. In my recent research of him, I found that he spent about 85%+ of his time in Florida after his title run. The footage IS OUT THERE, but if anyone has ever got hold of it or seen any of it, I don't know. What I do know is that from what I've seen of Brisco in that timeframe, he smokes Dory -- I'd say his brother does too. Georgia 1. Tommy Rich 2. Buzz Sawyer 3. Masked Superstar 4. Paul Orndorff This would be the other place to put Brisco, given that he was a stakeholder. I don't know how much TV there is from Georgia in 83, but Brisco was active then and having decent matches. From my many conversations with Chad (soup), I also know that the Armstrongs were big local stars in Georgia and that Bob Armstrong was seen as a legend there. Whether Armstrong worked for GCW or how much Armstrong there is on tape I don't know. International 1. Dino Bravo 2. Rick Martel 3. Jacques Rougeau 4. Raymond Rougeau This is the Montreal territory right? I know nothing about it at all other than that Bravo was a big star and Dave Musgrave is an enthusiast. Both Maddog Vachon and Pat Patterson feel like they'd be relevant from what I've seen on the 24/7 roundtable show. Northwest 1. Buddy Rose 2. Billy Jack Haynes 3. Rip Oliver 4. Matt Borne Proper obscura for me. For mainland USA promotions, I think only the Maritimes is more obscure in terms of what I've seen of it. Looking at the history of the Portland title, Stan Stasiak was a 7-time champion and Jay Youngblood seems to have had a short but reasonably successful run before he left for Crockett. Southwest 1. Tully Blanchard 2. Gino Hernandez 3. Bob Sweetan 4. Manny Fernandez This is a territory that feels like it can go to me, just too small time. If it stays this is another place Chavo Gurrerro could go. How much footage is there in Southwest? Central States 1. Harley Race 2. Bob Brown 3. Rufus R. Jones 4. Buzz Tyler The most slept-on promotion from the 80s? I am intrigued by the brief tag-team that Marty Jannetty had with Tommy Rogers in 84-5, known as the "Uptown Boys": if Rogers wasn't too green, it can't be bad. Jannetty held the singles title as late as 86, so I wonder if he might be someone to look at for this? Mid-Atlantic 1. Ric Flair 2. Ricky Steamboat 3. Wahoo McDaniel 4. Greg Valentine My instinct would be to ditch either Wahoo or Greg Valentine for Ron Garvin, especially if the emphasis is more on 80s Crockett than 70s Mid-Atlantic. Ivan Koloff was a real stalwart for that company too during the early 80s. Arn Anderson naturally, is someone else to mention, as is Tully if South West is ditched -- if it is then Tully is a lock. Ole Anderson was a big star in that promotion. Ricky Morton isn't on any list, he would be an outside bet for 80s Crockett. If the focus is late 70s rather than 80s, Paul Jones probably warrants a mention too. Memphis 1. Jerry Lawler 2. Bill Dundee 3. Dutch Mantell 4. Austin Idol Tommy Rich? Koko B. Ware? Continental 1. Bob Armstrong 2. Ron Fuller 3. Robert Fuller 4. Jimmy Golden Totally forgot this place even existed. Eddie Gilbert? WWC 1. Carlos Colon 2. Abdullah the Butcher 3. Hercules Ayala 4. The Invader No idea at all beyond Colon and Abby.

El-P do you prefer Pillman as a face or heel? My traditional response would be heel, but now-a-days I'm not so sure. Any thoughts?

Three points really quickly, Will: 1. I do think 1986 is a year when JCP had a strong roster and WWF didn't quite have the incredible depth they would go on to have in 87 and 88 (by 89, forget about it, they had a "dream" roster). You've still got the last remnants of the overhang from the Vince Sr era hanging around and complete dogshit like the Hillbillies taking up space. 2. My point in this thread if you read it back has been that JCP were always going to put on stronger cards for house shows because in a 5- or 6-match card, you're going to get a match from the Horsemen (with or without Flair), R n R, Midnights and someone like a Ron Garvin or Wahoo. But problem is that it's the SAME 10-15 guys carrying the company card after card, night after night, year after year. The way to measure DEPTH is not to look at two isolated cards on a random night in 1986, it's to look at 30 cards over a decent period of time in a given year to see what variety of matches they had going on. Everyone knows WWF ran the A-shows and the B-shows on their house circuits, sometimes they even ran C-shows. What is deeper? Running 20 towns with Arn and Tully in a tag match and some variation of Rock n Rolls vs. Midnights or running 20 towns with 10 of them headlined by Hogan vs. Orndorff with Bob Orton, Roddy Piper and Don Muraco doing something underneath and 10 with Steamboat vs. Savage with Andre and Jake Roberts doing something underneath? I mean it can be Cousin Luke vs. Nameless Jobber in all of those towns and no doubt the JCP cards all look tastier from a fan perspective, but the strength of the card belies the fact that it's the same strong card every night. I know you don't like my football ("soccer"!) analogies, but it's like a team has a very strong first XI who could probably win the league, but there's no one sitting on the bench. If someone gets injured, there isn't anyone who can come in. There's another team who have a strong first XI too, but they also have a number of stars sitting on the bench -- or maybe like Manchester United they keep rotating them. Now the fan at home can think "why is player X sitting on the bench? He's be a star in any other team, he's being WASTED!" but that is what SQUAD DEPTH is. We can say WWF were wasteful, or we can say that they had the luxury of running many different cards of middling quality with a rotated squad, while JCP had to run almost the same amount of cards with mostly the same guys. WWF had shit on some of their shows no doubt but squad rotation means you can't always play your first XI. 3. The reason I wanted to look at supercards as opposed to house shows is because that's the only time we see a full roster in action. And just looking at Wrestlemania vs. Starrcade year-on-year you can see not only how many MORE wrestlers WWF had, but also how many more big names with drawing records.

I think that would clear up the issue of where to put Harley then. jp - how is this going to work? Let's say Ricky Steamboat makes Team Crockett, does that mean he can't make Team WWF? And does it mean that you only look at his career in Mid Atlantic?

I associate Harley Race with both Central States and St. Louis. Is that wrong?

El-P is right that art can't be quantified and it's all subjective. That is the ultimate answer. I'm going have a shower and put this thread behind me, regret ever getting involved in it.

It's a surprise to me that on this forum I'd I come across "in thread after thread" like I'm trying to put myself over as "smarter than the room". Especially when my general feeling is that I'm posting on a board where everyone knows more about wrestling than I do and this is basically the only time I've ever discussed something outside of wrestling.

Dustin Rhodes? Want to say any more on this? Just interested. For myself, I just don't feel qualified to answer these sorts of things any more. Any list I come up with seems hopelessly JCP-WCW / WWF centric. I'd feel more comfortable doing a top 10 JCP-WCW or top 10 WWF. Until I've seen Memphis and the rest of AWA and some Buddy Rose in Portland, it feels wrong to come up with a all-time US list.

OJ - Albums are not the only metric, but they are a strong metric. Allmusic didn't give Desire, Street Legal, Slow Train, Time Out of Mind, Love and Theft or Modern Times, 5 stars when many many publications did, but then they did give Nashville Skyline 5 stars which it doesn't always get. Jazz is not something I can pretend to understand. I don't understand it. It feels like a totally different ball game to me. I have said since day 1 that if someone wants to argue for Miles Davis, I would not object to him being in the conversation. It's the equivalent of someone arguing for a Lucha star when you haven't enjoyed the Lucha you've been exposed to and you haven't sought out a lot more of it. But I accept that Miles Davis is pimped on that level, that those who know a lot about jazz pimp him on that level, so I don't object to it. When it comes to a lot of the other non-jazz acts mentioned I've rated and assessed them all in time and come to my conclusion. I'm happy to discuss how we go about rating these things. Even happy to discuss other acts and their pro and cons. I don't want to discuss the Dylan GOAT case itself or why I consider him as #1. Simple reason being that I really don't enjoy it. It's as bad for me, as talking to non-wrestling fans about wrestling or nails on a chalk board. I find it actively painful.

Let me just pause here and try to take stock of the argument taking place. I think this might be helpful to see if everyone has understood exactly what the issue is. My argument in this thread has been this: WWF had a much deeper roster than JCP and its midcards were "stacked" with big names. This is demonstrably the case and I have shown it by looking down specific cards and pointing it out. Another point I made some months ago, earlier in the thread, is that the gap between the main event and the rest of card was wider in JCP than it was in WWF -- wider in terms of star power. WWF has guys like Paul Orndorff in the midcard, JCP has a retired Paul Jones. The argument that Dylan and Johnny Sorrow have adopted is: The "big stars" in WWF were not used meaningfully and no one gave a shit about them. JCP had guys like Jones and Valiant in meaningful feuds, so they meant more. This somewhat negates the idea that WWF cards were "stacked" and JCP cards were thin. Is that a fair summary? EDIT: I would like to mention too that thinking about OJ's point: seems to me that WWF became better at midcard feuds from 89 onwards.

I also want to address the "Biggie only had 2 albums" talking point. As I said, I only consider one of those "great". The Zombies have one knockout album (Odyssey and Oracle) that I would consider to be "Beatles level". So does David Ackles (American Gothic), so does Harry Nilsson (Aerial Ballet), so does Randy Newman (Sail Away, arguably Good Old Boys too), so do quite a few other acts. Are we going to say The Zombies are on par with The Beatles on the strength of that one album? Do we put them in the "tier 2" conversation with Neil Young and David Bowie? Hardly seems fair. Kate Bush has 4 albums on that level, I don't see anyone pushing her case for GOAT. I don't see why BIG should get a pass and I'd probably argue that Ready to Die is not as good as the albums I've just named. From hip-hop I'd say maybe Liquid Swords is. There is this also phenomena to consider: But then as OJ goes on to say: So when you are talking GOAT, I don't see how someone with 2 albums, only one of which is really great is going to get into the conversation. If that is your bar, your conversation has about 1000 artists in it.

This is a little beside the point, but can Dylan really be engaged with the movie if he's doing two other things at the same time? I mean really engaged with it, emotionally engaged. I struggle to think so. I am happy to assume that everyone here is at the same levels as me when it comes to discussing these things. I was simply trying to get over the idea that these aren't lazy opinions I've just come up with on the spot and that maybe I've been down this road before about 100 a times or more. "I been down this road before, Senor". @ SLL - I've said repeatedly in this thread that I don't want to have the argument so it's no use making long posts. My feeling is that Young, Led Zep, Stones are all tier 2 along with Bowie and a few other people. I have reasons for that. You can disagree, my feeling is that only two acts are in the conversation. I've also said that I consider Dylan an almost Shakespeare-level artist. To justify why I think this would require more words than anyone wants to read. And I'm not willing to put that much effort in when someone is just going to write "oh he can't sing" (another bugbear which is along the lines of "wrestling is fake" as a point) or "oh I'd rather listen to Animal Collective" after it. It's not worth it. It's not worth trying to convince anyone else of the same view. I've said this 6 times now already.

I didn't know till just now that the Nassau show got 16,500 and the LA show 14,500. Do you think those 16,000 people were there mainly for Piper vs. Mr. T? Probably. Anyway, I must go now, but I'll leave you with this: WWF @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - January 10, 1986 (18,000) Scott McGhee fought Barry O to a draw Dan Spivey defeated Terry Gibbs Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart Hillbilly Jim defeated Big John Studd via disqualification Andre the Giant defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out Bob Orton Jr. defeated Cousin Luke Paul Orndorff fought Roddy Piper to a no contest Don Muraco defeated Ricky Steamboat Who sold the 18,000 tickets that night? How about this night? WWF @ Oakland, CA - January 16, 1986 (12,000) Terry Gibbs defeated Guy Lambert Hercules defeated Steve Gatorwolf George Wells defeated Matt Borne Ted Arcidi defeated Alexis Smirnoff Dan Spivey defeated Tiger Chung Lee Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee Terry Funk pinned the Junkyard Dog Randy Savage & Jesse Ventura defeated WWF IC Champion Tito Santana & Pedro Morales when Savage pinned Santana WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. via count-out Here? WWF @ Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - February 12, 1986 (6,400) Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Steve Gatorwolf & Jose Luis Rivera Pedro Morales defeated Tiger Chung Lee Uncle Elmer defeated Bob Orton Jr. via disqualification Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper WWF @ Sydney, Australia - Entertainment Center - April 11, 1986 (9,000) Sivi Afi pinned Hercules George Skaaland vs. Matt Borne SD Jones vs. Steve Lombardi Paul Roma vs. Rene Goulet Lanny Poffo vs. Tiger Chung Lee Cpl. Kirchner vs. the Iron Sheik Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification vs. Hogan those two drew pretty well in 86: WWF @ Chicago, IL - Rosemont Horizon - July 11, 1986 (17,000) Cousin Luke defeated Paul Christy Brickhouse Brown defeated Tiger Chung Lee George Wells defeated Steve Lombardi Mike Rotundo & Dan Spivey defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart when Spivey pinned Bret Harley Race pinned Lanny Poffo The Iron Sheik defeated the Junkyard Dog via count-out Ricky Steamboat defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification at 15:04 WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Don Muraco WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 17, 1986 (11,500) Cpl. Kirchner defeated Tiger Chung Lee Hercules defeated Tito Santana via count-out B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell fought Mike Rotundo & Danny Spivey to a draw The Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake; the winners of this match were to meet the winner of the Killer Bees / Rotondo & Spivey match to determine who would get a tag team title shot at the 10/5 show but because the previous match went to a draw Sheik & Volkoff automatically won the title shot King Kong Bundy & Big John Studd defeated Big & Super Machine via disqualification Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - August 18, 1986 (23,000) Harley Race defeated Cousin Luke King Tonga & Sivi Afi defeated Bob Orton Jr. & Rene Goulet Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Jimmy Jack & Dory Funk Jr. The Junkyard Dog defeated Adrian Adonis Ricky Steamboat fought Jake Roberts to a draw WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated George Steele WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Don Muraco WWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - August 24, 1986 (20,000; sell out) Cpl. Kirchner defeated Tiger Chung Lee King Harley Race defeated SD Jones Nikolai Volkoff & the Iron Sheik defeated Mike Rotundo & Dan Spivey B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Brutus Beefcake & Greg Valentine Adrian Adonis defeated the Junkyard Dog WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated George Steele via count-out Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification The Big Event - Toronto, Ontario - CNE Stadium - August 28, 1986 (64,000; 61,470 paid; sell out) Included Gorilla Monsoon, Johnny Valiant, & Ernie Ladd on commentary B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Jimmy Jack & Dory Funk Jr. (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 6:53 when Brunzell pinned Jimmy Jack with an inside cradle after switching places with Blair in the ring, moments after the Killer Bees put their masks on while on the floor (Dory’s last match in the WWF for nearly 10 years) Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Don Muraco (w/ Mr. Fuji) fought King Tonga to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Tonga had Muraco covered following a crossbody off the top Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Ted Arcidi defeated Tony Garea (sub. for Tony Atlas) via submission with a bearhug at 2:41 The Junkyard Dog defeated Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) via count-out at around the 4:15 mark after Adonis collided with Hart on the ring apron and fell over the top to the floor, although the bell rang within seconds of him being outside the ring; prior to the bout, Gene Okerlund interviewed Hart in the arena before he and Adonis made their way to the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Dick Slater pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 6:24 with a standing elbow off the top and a roll over Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, & Bobby Heenan defeated Big & Super Machine, & Capt. Lou Albano (w/ Giant Machine) via disqualification at 7:49 when Giant Machine interfered, as Studd was in the ring illegally, and single-handedly beat down and cleared the ring of the opposition Ricky Steamboat pinned Jake Roberts in a Snake Pit Match at 10:17 with a roll up as Roberts sat on Steamboat's chest making a nonchalant cover (Jake "The Snake" Roberts: Pick Your Poison) Billy Jack Haynes pinned Hercules with a backslide at 6:08 as Hercules attempted a neckbreaker Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake when Raymond, the illegal man, pinned Valentine with a sunset flip at 14:51 as Valentine attempted to put Jacques in the figure-4 King Harley Race pinned Pedro Morales with a double leg pickup and putting both feet on the middle rope for leverage WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff (w/ Bobby Heenan) via disqualification at 11:05 after Heenan hit Hogan over the head with a wooden stool as the champion had Orndorff set up for the piledriver; the decision of the match was not made clear until several moments thereafter as Orndorff covered the champion and the referee, who had been knocked out, tapped his shoulder three times before calling for the bell; after the bout, Orndorff put the belt on and attacked the champion but Hogan eventually sent him to the floor with a boot to the face (Hulk Still Rules, Hulk Hogan: The Ultimate Anthology) WWF @ Detroit, MI - October 25, 1986 (21,000; sell out) Cpl. Kirchner fought Nick Kiniski to a draw Frenchy Martin pinned Jerry Valiant Jake Roberts defeated Sivi Afi Tito Santana pinned Jimmy Jack Funk The Honkytonk Man defeated Steve Lombardi Sika pinned Lanny Poffo George Steele defeated Mr. Fuji in a tuxedo match Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage via count-out Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification

Is it blowing your horn to say you are a big geek/nerd/whatever of something? I don't know. There's always someone who knows more, for sure. I like The Kinks too.

Jones was a regional star no doubt about it, but in 1986 he was a manager. I don't understand the point. Jones in 86 for MACW is like what? Pedro Morales? I don't see how it's a bad example at all. Jones is hardly comparable to Orndorff or Muraco. What is the point being made? Could Jones main event in 86? Could he have a run with Flair or Dusty on top if need be? Well?

Johnny - sorry mate, no way in a million years are you pulling the idea that Paul Jones was a bigger draw than Orndorff or Muraco in 1986. Come on dude.

Dylan, what does it matter how they were positioned or booked? Harley Race in a crown in the midcard is still Harley Race. A stacked midcard is a stacked midcard. Don Muraco or Paul Orndorff in 86 might have been (upper) midcarders, but they could still work Hogan at MSG, at house shows or even on tv specials. Whichever way you slice it, whichever way you want to argue it, Orndorff vs. Muraco is a much more impressive midcard match than Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones. If you look at how Vince booked top heels, it was always the same: come in, run against Hogan, back down the card, maybe into a prominent feud, utilise in main event title matches on SNME or even on PPV if need be. You can look at DiBiase's run to see this most visibly as he has a clear trajectory coming in 87, pushed to the moon in 88, main event run, back down the card, sporadic main events for the next few years before being put in a tag team. You can see a parallel in what they did with Savage after 89. The point is that that's Orndorff in the midcard there, Orndorff who CAN main event if need be. It's not Paul Jones. That's DiBiase there 3rd match vs. Beefcake, he could be against Hogan next PPV. It's not Russian Assassin #2. Am I losing the plot? Is this not the most transparently obvious thing in the world? EDIT: I am in an unusually argumentative mood this evening, apologies.

You know, let's just forget this. It's not worth it.

They really aren't though. Ready to Die is good, but Life After Death isn't all that. It's patchy. The Source probably only gave it 5 Mics because of timing. There's nothing groundbreaking on either of them. Ready to Die is a solid, very tight gangster rap album. It isn't Liquid Swords. It isn't Return to 36 Chambers. It isn't It Takes a Nation. It isn't Straight Outta Compton. Arguably it is a top 10 all-time hip-hop album. You want to say that making one all-time great hip-hop album is enough to get you into a GOAT conversation? That's your argument here?

BIG made 2 albums in his career. Two. Let's say Ready to Die is as good as The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. Let's say Life After Death, being a double album, is as good as Blonde on Blonde. Let's just say that. Highway 61 Revisited. What as Biggie got now? That remix album with the Duran Duran sample? ("Born Again") No, I'm being serious here. What's he got now? Bringing It All Back Home - what now? Junior MAFIA? John Wesley Harding -errr, guest appearances on No Way Out? Blood on the Tracks - and now? the 4th remix of All About the Benjamins? Street Legal - errrr ghost writing for Foxy Brown? Desire - the Tupac diss? Nashville Skyline - Craig Mack remix? Oh Mercy Time Out of Mind Love and Theft Modern Times Bootleg Series 1-3 Basement Tapes Another Side of ... Do you not see the total absurdity of trying to make a Dylan vs. BIG comparison? It can't be done. It just can't.