W2BTD

Nonsense. We're talking aesthetics here. I follow the business end of wrestling, but in all honestly for the most part I couldn't care less how much money the promoter makes/loses beyond wanting companies I like to stay in business.

Of course it was. It wasn't a list of biggest stars. It was a list of guys generally considered great workers.

My taste in wrestling generally falls in line with Meltzer's. At least more than most of you guys here. He does tend to go crazy for certain things that I don't (Edge. Orton. Joshi. WWE 00's main event style. Choshu. Jumbo.), but I would say that in general, he likes the same things I like.

I posted in that thread.

Thanks, but no need to go through that effort. I've seen a ton of Memphis. I've seen a ton of Lawler. Running right up to the mid 90's USWA era when I was tape trading with people who didn't have access to ECW. I'm not ignorant to the style or completely closed minded about it. There are facets of it that I like. The angles & promos are top notch. When it comes to the bell to bell, most of it is just not my bag. I will never "get" Bill Dundee, for example. I've tried. It isn't happening. Lawler I don't even think is bad, which is what I think people are taking away from this, but that's not the case. Not that this won't equally infuriate people, but I would classify him as firmly average. I can take him, or leave him. Mostly leave him truth be told, but god he's not Dundee. As someone who does not particularly care about things like punches or brawls or blood, many of the classic Memphis brawl style bouts do absolutely nothing for me. Southern tags can be hit or miss for me. The simplistic psychology loses me sometimes. Along those lines, PG 13 love is something that baffles me. I watched them every week during their peak, and I always found them to be complete shit. Anyway, i'm drifting. The genesis of the conversation has drifted. I stand by my thought that Lawler was never widely considered a "workrate" guy, which was clearly the spirit of that Observer poll when you look at the names.The problem, of course, is what people consider great workrate, vs being a great wrestler, and how it all correlates.

Worked MMA. They invented highspots for a reason. Deathmatches where the participants maim themselves. Not sure anything is less appealing to me. Anything so sloppy that I can no longer suspend my disbelief. Redoing blown spots. See above. Drives me nuts and will take me right out of it.

That's 100 random guys who popped in my head who I think are legitimately better than Lawler bell to bell. I'd argue your second paragraph speaks more to the idea that Lawler is more charismatic than the guys on the list, not necessarily a better worker. No argument there. The discussion that led to the list was a poll on the Observer site which was heavily implied to be a list of great workers, which Lawler was not included and somebody took offense to (since Tanahashi was included, which personally I find absurd because to me Tanahashi is a million times better than Lawler). I argued he didn't belong on such a list. This discussion also falls into some gray areas and the differences between work/workrate that Dylan alluded to earlier. Guys like Lawler & Hogan could get more out of less because of their charisma. That doesnt make them great workers in my opinion. You don't have to be a great worker to be a great pro wrestler who gets over and draws money. Im strictly talking bell to bell workrate.

I actually don't care if it does turn into a Lawler bash session, but the next step is to say what you prefer about these guys to Lawler. Though I have been crazy enough to make such lists and literally defend EVERY single name on it, I don't expect that out of you (or anyone else really). But I would be interested to see what you prefer about say TJ Perkins to Lawler as a worker, and I would also be curious to know how much 80's Lawler you have seen. I am a list guy of course, but it's usually the discussion that fuels or comes after the lists that makes the lists worthwhile Dylan, there is literally zero chance i'm breaking down every guy on that list vs Lawler, lol. I can summarize the crux of every defense with "I don't like the 80's Memphis wrestling style" (but love the promos and angles), but that kind of brings us back to square on. Perkins, to me, is one of the underrated flyers of his era. Great athlete, innovative, smooth, crisp looking offense, good bumps, everything you want out of a fast paced junior worker. He's a very quirky guy, and I think his inability to stay one place and sink his teeth into a promotion for longer than ten minutes has sort of made him the most incognito talented wrestler of the last decade.

I mean, I don't want this to turn into a Jerry Lawler bash session. But I can literally type forever.

OK. Then here you go. I'll stop at 100. No particular order. As they come to mind. Have at it. 1. Davey Richards 2. Eddie Edwards 3. Kurt Angle 4. Dynamite Kid 5. Lance Storm 6. CIMA 7. Masato Yoshino 8. Akira Tozawa 9. Naruki Doi 10. Masaaki Mochizuki 11. Shingo 12. YAMATO 13. Dragon Kid 14. Genki Horiguchi 15. Ryo Saito 16. Hiroshi Tanahashi 17. Kazuchika Okada 18. Shinsuke Nakamura 19. Tomohiro Ishii 20. Tetsuya Naito 21. Satoshi Kojima 22. Jushin Liger 23. Prince Devitt 24. Kota Ibushi 25. KENTA 26. Naomichi Marufuji 27. Taiji Ishimori 28. Mitsuhara Misawa 29. Kenta Kobashi 30. Toshiaki Kawada 31. Bret Hart 32. Shawn Michaels 33. Antonio Cesaro 34. El Generico/Sami Zayn 35. Daniel Bryan 36. CM Punk 37. Ricky Steamboat 38. Randy Savage 39. Jun Akiyama 40. Austin Aries 41. Samoa Joe 42. Christopher Daniels 43. 2 Cold Scorpio 44. TJ Perkins 45. Roderick Strong 46. Arn Anderson 47. Dolph Ziggler 48. Rey Misterio Jr 49. Chris Hero 50. Dean Malenko 51. Eddie Guerrero 52. Chris Benoit 53. Sabu 54. Terry Funk 55. Steve Williams 56. Steve Austin 57. Scott Hall 58. Booker T 59. Shuji Kondo 60. Koji Kanemoto 61. Art Barr 62. El Hijo Del Santo 63. Adrian Neville/Pac 64. La Parka 65. Minoru Suzuki 66. TAKA Michinoku 67. El Samurai 68. Shinjiro Otani 69. Owen Hart 70. Bam Bam Bigelow 71. Vader 72. Sting 73. Davey Boy Smith 74. Frankie Kazarian 75. Jake Roberts 76. Bobby Fish 77. Kyle O'Reilly 78. ACH 79. Kevin Steen 80. Michael Elgin 81. Jay Lethal 82. Ricochet 83. AR Fox 84. Johnny Gargano 85. Chris Masters 86. Juventud Guerrera 87. Psichosis/Nicho 88. Blue Panther 89. Volador Jr 90. La Sombra 91. Ray Cometa 92. Mascara Dorada 93. Negro Casas 94. Seth Rollins 95. William Regal 96. Fit Finlay 97. Rob Van Dam 98. Jerry Lynn 99. Bobby Eaton 100. Great Sasuke

LOVE this post. Anyway, I think good "wrestling" can be a lot of things. It's no secret I love modern New Japan. It's pretty much an in ring style & booking style that ticks every box of what I want in my wrestling. But I also love Dragon Gate. I like a lot of things about WWE. I even find things to like about TNA. For years my guilty pleasure was Osaka Pro and the cheesy comedy shit they do, and these days my guilt watch is DTU, which is a bunch of 18-year old spot monkey's doing a bad ECW act. Now, if we are talking workrate, like the original thread this spun off of was discussing? Matt D nailed it. Workrate can be a million different things. Generally the wrestling I enjoy involves a high workrate, is action heavy, and contains excitement. Nothing fires me up like a well timed fighting spirit spot from an underdog, or a one count kickout from a guy using up the last of his adrenaline. I love when wrestlers convey a shit ton of heart, which is probably why I have a soft spot for anything involving New Japan young lions screaming like they're dying when stuck in a simple crab hold, and why I thought the divisive Dolph Ziggler promo two weeks ago was one of the best things I've ever seen. I think hot angles equal great wrestling, which is the one area that I think Memphis probably laps every other territory. My problem with Memphis is the style bell to bell.

In this case Dylan, falling back on "style preferences" isn't a way to avoid meaningful discussion, it's a truth to avoid a pointless discussion when asked to list my 100 names. Here's four names that I would consider absolute no brainers: Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Kurt Angle, Dynamite Kid. My list would be full of people like that, so you can only imagine the shitstorm of a circular argument that would cause, no? We all know the dominant opinion of those guys here. And it's all rooted in style preference. I mean, i'd take 90% of the current Dragon Gate roster over Lawler, with little hesitation or thought. And nobody is right or wrong,because if you are talking Lawler & Bill Dundee (don't get me started on THAT guy, lol) vs Masato Yoshino & Ryo Saito, clearly it's just a matter of what style you like better because comparing Memphis to Dragon Gate is pretty silly because you are going to find very little overlap of people who love both. Generally you are going to like one, the other, or neither. Because they couldn't possibly be more different. I mean, i'll break down Lance Storm vs Jerry Lawler all day if you want, but are we going to find any middle ground whatsoever?

I could do this, and honestly forget since 1980 which was the basis of the poll, I could easily give you 100 active guys who I think are absolute no brainers, but let's be completely honest, what is the point? We can all predict what happens from there. Here's the thing, there won't be a middle ground here. This will sound like a troll, but I promise it isn't. If I made a list of my own personal top workers of all time, Lawler might not crack my top 1,000. These types of debates come down to style bias. But my larger point here is that I don't think Lawler was ever considered an all time great bell to bell worker universally by the masses. I don't like Jumbo either, but he was, so I get his inclusion and accept that im the outlier. There was probably a time when the consensus was that Jumbo was the best in the world. I'd rather jump into moving traffic than watch Dory Funk Jr, but again, put him in a poll like that and I dont bat an eye. So this isn't just a Lawler thing for me.

Agree completely. For the sake of full disclosure, I'm 37 and grew up in New Jersey. Obviously people love Memphis wrestling, i'm not saying they don't. I do think it's fair for me to say that it was never a quote unquote workrate territory. Same for ECW. Same for Detroit. I'd argue Smokey Mountain, too. That's not to say that these places weren't any good. That's not to say there is no art involved in working those styles or inherent skill in getting over in those places.

Alternatively... ... man, why was the only "Wrestling" "pitchfork" image I could find Eric Young with a goalie mask on? In all seriousness, you can like whatever you want here and we'll be civil to you so long as you're civil to us, I do wonder sometimes why this guy posts here since all he seems to want to do is show his dislike of a lot of the stuff we dig and explain how niche and weird we all are. You'd think it'd get frustrating over time. When have I not been civil? Disagreeing is not being civil? Clearly i'm the guy on the wrong side of the tracks taste wise, but i've always taken it in stride and conducted myself in a civil manner despite being in more than one 100 vs 1 debates. Be fair. I responded to a post saying Tanahashi isn't worthy of being in what was obviously a workrate poll, yet Lawler is. I'd like to see the evidence that the consensus on Lawler is that he's a great in ring worker. Tanahashi is a three time Wreslter of the Year, two time Most Outstanding, and has two Matches of the Year under his belt. He's placed high in all of those categories multiple times as well. Lawler not only has no wins, but to my knowledge had never placed in any of those largely workrate based categories. And the poll in question was on the Observer website, so Observer Awards would be pretty relevant. Lawler has won Feud of the Year multiple times, and I believe he's placed in the promo category a few times. He's a legend and all time great overall performer. But that wasn't the poll. He was a square peg for that type of poll.

A lot of great wrestlers will tell you Kane is one of the best opponents they ever worked, too. I mean, that's nice and all, but it doesn't move me. Wrestlers judge each other differently than we do. If Memphis wrestling is your thing, cool. Everybody likes what they like. But Memphis was never known as a workrate territory. Lawler was never known as a top level worker. He excelled at brawls and little else. Won't argue the wrestling genius thing, but that doesn't necessarily make someone a great worker. Jake Roberts, for example. I'd call him a wrestling genius, but i'd hardly call him a great in ring worker. Lawler wasn't a great athlete (not even a good one), wasn't an innovator, and largely stayed in his wheelhouse and stuck to the formula. I watch the hyped Lawler stuff and it never, ever impresses me. Admittedly, I don't like the style, so there is style bias at play. Even so, I can't put him in the same stratosphere as the guys Meltzer had in the poll. I think Jumbo Tsuruta is possibly the most overrated pro wrestler ever. But I understand why he was in the poll and have no issue with it. Lawler belongs no where near a poll like that. It's just not what he was.

To be fair, this is one of the only corners of the universe where Lawler is regarded as some great in ring performer. The general consensus on Lawler is that he was an enormous star with tons of charisma, and good worker for his style at his peak. Most don't think of Lawler as an all time great bell to bell. I can think of 100 guys off the top of my head who were bigger snubs than Lawler in that poll. Funk easily being one of them.

We'll have this uploaded tomorrow. Thanks for the questions. I think we got to every single question from here, f4w, and twitter. ACH is...different. He's a good kid, but a tricky interview. We had a lot of fun, hopefully that comes across.

LOL.

I haven't seen the Morishima title win yet, but man was I disappointed in the KENTA title win from Morishima a year earlier. I love KENTA and waited for that moment for years, and that match was flat as a pancake.

Anything Morishima ever does that doesn't involve Bryan Danielson completely kills the mood for me. That tub of goo is the only major puro star that I actively avoid watching unless it's a big title switch and I have to watch.

It's funny how a lot of you guys don't like the Rainmaker counters. I can watch those counters all day long, and to me that's part of what makes the move so awesome. It's a protected move that equals instant death, and I absolutely love the sequences where he goes for it and there is a wild chain of counters. I love seeing the different kinds of counters different guys come up with.

I'd say he's doing pretty well for himself, no?

Considering this interview was booked through Inspire Pro, you can bet we will touch on this subject! He'll dance around it, but it has to be asked. Thanks.

Thanks guys. Keep them coming.