W2BTD

The new heel of the board is back with another wacky New Japan review. So here it is: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...gle-116-review/

To be fair, Dave is certainly willing to give ballots to people who have butted heads or disagreed with him in the past. Me, jdw, evilclown, Bix, etc having ballots is proof of that. I think the problem is that you have to be on his radar or fall within one of his buckets of active wrestler, former wrestler, reporter (which seems to include bloggers and podcast talkers) or historian. Since I doubt Dave is crediting my short lived career wrestling Brodie Lee and Colin Delaney, I assume my ballot was considered a reporter. I'm thinking historian fits better for you. But who the hell knows. Dylan should have a vote as a historian. Or a reporter. Or something.

A lot of people forget or don't realize that they had one singles match before Okada's excursion. They have seven total singles matches to my knowledge.

Here's mine: 1. October 2013 2. April 2013 3. August 2013 4. February 2012 5. June 2012 6. January 2013 I gave the first three 5-stars. Yes, I am absurdly & probably irrationally fond of the G1 draw. I just loved everything about that match. The shock of the finish bumps February 2012 a notch or two, as it's technically probably not better than the June match. Previous to these matches, I legit can not recall the last time I felt something was 5-stars. I'd probably have to go back to the Dragon Gate six man in ROH 2006 (man, I am REALLY on the wrong side of the tracks now), and that was more based on the fact that they blew that crowd away and it was just the right match at the right time, because while a great match, it was really no better than dozens of other Dragon Gate matches just like it. Anyway, the point here is that typically I am a really hard marker, much harder than somebody like Alan4L, harder than Meltzer especially when it comes to WWE main events, etc. These matches just connect with me on a Bryan Danielson 2006 level (which to me is one of the great singular years in wrestling, and I saw him live countless times that year and never felt anything was perfect, which sound like the biggest backhanded compliment ever but that's not how I mean it at all).

The Tokyo Dome is by far their worst match, and the only one that lost me during certain points.

Rock & Roll Express & Carlos Colon. I don't see a reason for people to stop voting for either, unless all five of the admittedly strong new candidates all do very well. So if there is a decent push for either, they should make it. I'm so baffled by RnRE, but then again I am every year.

There is no question 2012 & 2013 put him over the top. His work previous was highly touted, but since barely anybody was paying attention to New Japan before roughly the mid point of 2011, nobody outside a small niche (that word again dammit, but I can't think of a better one) of New Japan loyalists/fans were really paying attention. His in ring work peaked to new absurd levels just at the right time, just as the company as a whole began its rise.

I agree with all of this. I've said it many times, and I will say it again now. When all is said and done, Okada is going to blow right past Tanahashi in every way. The burning question at that point will be, how much of that was due to the boost Tanahashi gave him in 2012 & 2013? Obviously I feel it was critical. He wasn't getting that kind of rub from anybody else in Japan. And working with Tanahashi, who say what you want about his work on a hyper critical level, is regarded as a master of pacing and timing in terms of when to peak in his matches, has really helped Okada's amazingly fast development as a worker. I think Okada has already surpassed Tanahashi between the ropes in several areas.

OMG Colon. Also gutted at the RnRE not making it again. I figured them for near locks this time.

NJPW didn't just happen upon the technology. As I said before, the big feds would go through their TV deals to run their biggest shows. The PPV market was not untapped because they didn't want to use it. It was because they had been doing things the way they had for 20 years. NOAH had G+. AJPW and NJPW had Samurai and wXw. You are mistaking the iPPV numbers that are being claimed BECAUSE Tanahashi is on top, when in reality, it's a shift in how the big shows are being presented to the viewers from TV to PPV format. That's not due to Tanahashi. That's due to NJPW shifting how they present their product. This is like saying we cant credit Hogan for doing well on PPV because Vince finally came around on using it. Hey, if that's how you feel, fine. But to me that's a terrible, terrible, argument. (and before somebody derails this baby, no, I am not comparing Tanahashi to Hogan)

Yes - lame. First of all, we already hashed out that Bix was mistaken, as the post I copy & pasted and called him out on at the Observer board was indeed something he posted on the Observer board. Apparently he posted it in both places. Try to keep up. Second, with all due respect, I will talk about whatever the hell I want on my show. If that's lame, so be it. Now on to a bunch of things in the thread. RE: iPPV success. See, this is what i'm talking about when I say that there is massive hoop jumping going on to not credit the guy for anything. Since when do we not credit the top star & top babyface (which Tanahashi unquestionably is) for things like this? And I have to bring up the point Rich made on another board that we touched on during my lunatic rant on the podcast - how can you say New Japan just "accidentally" stumbled onto a new technology, with Tanahashi as a guy along for the ride, when Dragon Gate & W-1 have also stumbled into that same technology, yet nobody gives a shit and nobody is ordering those shows? Not to mention the non apples to apples comparisons like ROH or Evolve or *insert North American company here*. If we are going to concede that the success is real, and that profits are up 500% this year largely as a result, then you pretty much have to attribute that, at leas somewhat, to Tanahashi's drawing power. We also have to concede that Okada is now a draw as well (especially when you look at the non New Japan house he drew with Ibushi), and again, that's due in large part to Tanahashi putting him over after a long feud where he was able to get over the idea that they were equals. Maybe some of you just don't have your finger on the pulse of modern puro and how this all went down, in fact I would bet on that for a few of you specifically, but this can't be ignored imo. Whether it is part of a HOF worthy overall package is another argument entirely, but to hem & haw and refuse to give credit to the guy for some of these successful metrics, yet jump on him for 90% capacity buildings in some cases (what a bum!), is where things end up looking dubious to me. If iPPV was just a matter of finally having the technology, Dragon Gate would be having at least a modicum of success as well. And Dragon Gate does very well at the gate for their big shows in big buildings, sells out Koakuen twice a month or whatever, has the great TV deal with Gaora, and clearly has a following in the country. RE:Akiyama - I am on record as saying I would probably vote for him. Need no convincing there. RE Bix's long post on workrate inductees: Basically this sums up the point I've been trying to make all along, that a guy like Tanahashi has a much better chance of getting on on work & work alone than some of the (I wont use the phrase of death again because it was taken the wrong way) candidates talked about here. This is really all I was saying all along. He falls more in line with what your typical voter would consider a "great worker".

Never took a personal shot at Rose, and as i've stated I enjoy Rose. I don't like Dundee as he is pretty much the antithesis of what I enjoy in my fake fighting. I've sat though enough Dundee over the years to be 100% certain in that opinion. I don't know what to tell you. We all like different things, this is part of the reason I don't see the point in strongly trying to turn people on Tanahashi's work beyond my personal opinions of him. I feel like that sort of thing goes nowhere, because there is nothing anybody can ever say to me to "turn" me on a guy like Dundee. I've seen enough of his stuff to know I don't like it, and he's not exactly churning out new stuff these days to change my mind. The face on fire stuff is just being over the top and goofy and is no different than what somebody like Dylan does when he reviews stuff and makes some outlandish analogy. Sorry if you took it personal or whatever. It's not that serious.

There is a little box on the ballot for that. You vote on the categories you feel comfortable & knowledgeable enough to vote in. Now, do all of the voters take the ballot as seriously as one another and police themselves? The answer is very likely no.

That is indeed my opinion, and that is indeed subjective. What is NOT subjective, is the idea that Rose (who I am only using as the example because that was one of the the examples presented here by KrisZ and it was backed up by others) would be a "first ballot" guy if judged on workrate alone. That statement is just flat out false. Because there have been people who have gotten in largely on workrate alone, and Rose not only did not make it when he was on the ballot, but if fact garnered such little support that he was booted from the ballot altogether. We'll know later today, but my assertion is that the voters at large are more open to Tanahashi's work in terms of being HOF caliber than somebody like Rose. That is not opinion. That is fact. Can't be argued. Because Rose had his shot, and didn't come close. In the eyes of the voters, he is not some legendary worker. Nothing subjective about that. He just isn't. The results speak for themselves. And Tanahashi is likely either getting in, or coming close. This despite not having any sort of slam dunk drawing record in the eyes of most, and generally being considered a workrate candidate. Saying Rose or Regal or Dundee would be first ballot guys based on workrate is not understanding the voting patterns and the types of workers the voters tend to prefer when work is the primary strength of the candidate. I couldn't have been more clear that my personal opinions of those guys are irrelevant. One I like, one I REALLY like, and one I don't care for at all. None of that matters in relation to the point i've been trying to make. And of course there is some opinionated stuff in that rant, because, well, it's my show and i'm giving my opinion. If the above wasn't clear, sorry. I thought I pounded that home when I listened back, but maybe not.

I did NOT copy something you posted here and put it on the Observer board. You posted it there. In the Alan forum. I have no clue if you are confused or posted it in both places, but that's where it is, or at least where I found it. Combined with the weird AJ Styles post, that's why I called you out on it. Anyway, its explained over there in the Tanahashi thread. You specifically noted that you no voted an entire category for two guys. Yes, I found that odd. Because, well, it is odd. But you explained it further, so thanks. The rest is circular arguments, agree to disagree. Snowden's replies to me throughout the entire discussion were condescending in tone, that's all I'll say about that.

No, that's not it at all. As noted earlier, several years ago Dave stated that he felt Maeda would, at that point, have never been voted in if he hadn't been inducted in the initial class. As JDW and others pointed out, this is ridiculous, and if he truly believed/believes that, it's an indictment of the voters more than it is of Maeda. In 2013 I have no problem with Todd Martin having a ballot but ten years ago he was a guy arguing Sting should go in solely because he felt '90s American wrestling was under-represented, to the point of messaging Dylan at Wrestling Classics and asking him to start "an affirmative action campaign"" to get him in. He absolutely did not deserve a ballot then but got one because he sent stuff in to the Observer site. I have no idea what Dan Wahlers is doing nowadays or if he ever learned anything, but he got a ballot within months of sending "columns" to the Observer site. He never watched WCW and actively eschewed it because of his childhood WWF loyalty. During that period, he told a reader who emailed him that the reason he voted for IWA Mid-South (during their rise to prominence in the early aughts), which he had never seen a match from, as the worst promotion in the WON Awards because rival Louisville promoter Jim Cornette was always bashing them. He absolutely didn't deserve a ballot then, either. This was the year where Michaels went in. That year there was, no exaggeration, something like 50 to 100 new "writer/journalist" voters that year after the voter pool had been stagnant for several years (not like it is now where Dave is much more open to new voters). Plenty of people noted it was weird at the time. The idea that Dave had stacked the pool of voters with people who shouldn't be voting is not just an insult with nothing of substance behind it. Fair play. Although what I took from EC's post was that he was implying that Dave is intentionally "stacking the deck" by choosing voters who think like he does. If I was wrong, I apologize.

WON HOF voters aren't the "masses". They never have been, nor will they ever be. There are less than 400 of them, a large chunk of them in the business on some level. They are so far removed from the masses that it's not even funny. We sure as hell weren't the "masses" back in 1996 when we were putting the thing together. You obviously know I meant "the masses" in the context of the voters themselves. If not, well, I don't know what to say at this point. I'm hoping you're just fucking with me.

If you go back a few pages, his drawing record and time as an ace is being used as a negative, because it doesn't stack up to others in the past. Arguments such as, only TWO Sumo Hall G1 shows per year now? Pffft, back in the day they were doing five! Of course this ignores where New Japan was previous to this run. For me, while I have never trumpeted him as an elite HOF level draw, he is clearly enough of a star and a good enough draw for that to be part of his overall resume as a positive. I think the level the company was at before his rise and where they are now needs to be considered. Who else is drawing besides Tanahashi these days? The list is short. I'm not trying to make a tallest midget argument, but business isn't exactly booming, especially in Japan, and this is a guy who does move the needle. It's fascinating that people go to great lengths to discredit that aspect of his resume. If you are a exceptionally hard marker on the stardom front, fine. I'm willing to see layers.

Stop. It's as if you aren't even reading what i'm typing, so I think it's time to bow out again.

Just as a personal opinion, do YOU feel like everyone that should be in the WON HOF based on "workrate alone" is already in? Very hard to say. Of people on the ballot currently or no longer on it? Probably yes, at least off the top of my head. I think you have to be exceptional, as in all time exceptional, to get in mostly on workrate or workrate alone. Because like Dylan says, it's hard to reach a mass consensus on things. So it has to be someone who is at least close to universal, as there will always be pockets of dissidents. Obviously I feel Tanahashi fits that bill, although I also think his drawing record is a resume enhancer at worst. But drawing record aside, because i'm more than willing to back down on that aspect, I think his work alone is good enough to get him in. Off the top of my head, Jun Akiyama is a guy who I would probably strongly consider voting for if he were on the ballot, and obviously that would be largely predicated on work. There are people coming up the next few years who I would vote for without hesitation based almost solely on work, but I won't even bother bringing the names up yet because if Tanahashi is causing such an uproar, I can't even imagine what those conversations will look like.

With respect, I think you've completely misread this board. There's no issue with "self awareness" or a lack of understanding about the mechanisms that lead to a wrestler being elected to the WON Hall of Fame. Many of us have been having these conversations for a decade. I don't think there's a single one of us who doesn't know Tanahashi is going to go in. Just like we knew Angle would go in before him. For my part, I'm curious about why. What makes the breed of voter Dave has stacked the deck with so certain this is a Hall of Fame level wrestler? I don't think it's wrong to ask you to explain your decision to vote for him. Just as it's not wrong to ask me why I voted for Ricky Morton. I'd be glad to tell you. To the bold, there are people in this thread (maybe not you) saying that "if workrate alone could get you in, then Rose, Dundee, Dandy, Regal would be first ballot", which is where I am coming from with the lack of self awareness comment. That is clearly bullshit, because none of those men have gotten in, while others have strictly on workrate. That is a PWO bubble statement. Somebody like Rose or Dundee has a much better reputation here than at large. The proof is in the voting. If these men were widely regarded as elite workers, they'd have been voted in like the other men that are widely regarded as elite workers. What you don't seem to understand, is i'm not even arguing whether they are elite/HOF level workers or not. I'm not interested in that in the context of this discussion, and it's all subjective. But I know for a fact that in the eyes of the voters they aren't, because I have the data to back that up. These guys can't even stay on the ballot, let alone get enough votes to get in. I also find it interesting that you would even make a statement like "the breed of voter that Dave has stacked the deck with". It 's very telling that you would even say something like that. That comes off so condescending and honestly, whiny. "Why don't the masses think like I do?!" And for the record, I voted for Ricky Morton also.

For the record I voted for Don Owen, and didn't even debate myself on it, so that should cover where I stand on Portland as a whole. Two, there is still alight misunderstanding of the way I used niche fetishism, but at this point i'd rather not argue about it anymore. It was taken the wrong way, and I guess i'm not conveying myself well enough. Saying Rose would get in based on work alone is rooted in niche fetishism. Or else he would have gotten in. Because others have. That's what I meant by it. The idea that he was SO GOOD that it can hardly be disputed to the point that it's HOF worthy on it's own merit is clearly false. At least for this group of voters for this HOF, where he failed to even remain on the ballot. I don't think anybody is being dismissive or assholes, I accept that there will always be differences in tastes, which is why I come to this site to begin with, because I am open to what I see as alternate perspectives on things. One of my main points, is that if he gets in, it isn't going to be primarily due to his drawing record. So what will the reason be? Obviously his work and his (not here, but mostly everywhere else) string of fantastic matches, particularly with Okada. The fact New Japan has turned around is a feather in his cap to voters, no doubt, but I think we are absolutely looking at a workrate inductee if it happens. And I agree that Okada is going to be the new ace, in fact i've said in many places including I believe in this thread that I think he has already inched past Tanahashi in many ways and does certain things better even at the age of 25.

-What he does well: Match pacing. In this regard, I view him as essentially flawless. I can not recall a Tanahashi match that I have thought went too long or did not go long enough. He always hits the sweet spot, and has an uncanny ability to hit is peaks at the right times. He is a great babyface who clearly connects with the audience. His record as a draw is knocked around these parts for not stacking up to the past, but it is clear that New Japan has turned around with him on top, as attendance, revenue, and iPPV numbers can confirm this. He is not an elite draw, but he is a good one, and greatly responsible for New Japan's resurgence. What you think that is worth is up to you, I find it relevant enough to be part of the picture for sure. -What makes him more special than other great wrestlers of his era: A streak of delivering in big match main events that hasn't been matched in many years, if not ever. If you don't like the style, I suppose you can stop reading now. Nothing I say can convince you. The Okada series is the best modern series of matches since Misawa/Kobashi, and i've had serious debates with myself that it may be better. As some may know I review all New Japan shows for my website, and I have rated three of these matches 5-stars this year alone, as I felt they were perfect. Believe it or not, I am a hard marker when it comes to this. I've doled out one other 5-star rating in my entire life to this point. And despite the off handed passive aggressive insults tossed toward me in this thread, i'm no kid and not new to wrestling or puro for that matter. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, a mark of a great worker to me is how many people they carried to the best match of their career. Off the top of my head, I would say definitively that Okada, Karl Anderson, Minoru Suzuki, Yujiro Takahashi, & Tetsuya Naito have had the best match of their career vs Tanahashi, and that's just in the last calendar year. Some would argue Tomohiro Ishii, but I preferred the Ishii match against Shibata. Many would also argue Nakamura, but I prefer modern Nakamura matches to his previous incarnation and I think Nakamura has topped his Tanahashi matches since with other people, but I am the minority. The only other wrestler of this era who consistently delivers in this area is Daniel Bryan, who had match after match in 2006 onward that were easily the best match of this opponents career, including with mediocre workers like Jimmy Rave, Delirious etc. So this is clearly an area that to me sets Tanahashi apart for nearly everybody else in this era. Tanahashi was also instrumental in creating a new superstar in Okada, who has now started to prove himself as a draw on his own. Okada was a complete non entity that flopped badly on the Dome show in 2012 when he returned from excursion, and thanks to his great series of matches with Tanahashi, he's a bonafide star. Tanahashi just did the same thing for Naito in the G1 Finals, and it appears Naito is well on his way to joining Okada. So this ticks the influence box, as does his working style, which is clearly being emulated by many in Japan, much to the likely chagrin of people here who don't dig modern Japan. There are little things. A few months ago, he had the best lumberjack match i've ever seen with Devitt. Wasn't a great match, but i've never enjoyed a lumberjack match ever, except for that one. His G1 performance this year was fantastic. Night after night, delivering great matches with his entire block, when positioned in the main or semi most every night while others got "nights off" by being placed in prelims. Tanahashi was expected to work hard and have his standard of match every night, and delivered. And did it twice on the final day, one being what I thought was a five star draw with Okada, and then the star maker with Naito. All six of the Okada matches are great, and all were worked differently. One was a 30 minute draw, another saw Tanahashi work heel, one saw heavy arm work on Okada to take out the Rainmaker, etc. And I have barely touched on the first part of his career, where he was having great matches that nobody paid attention to because New Japan was struggling. So there you go. Nothing super in depth, but some basic bullet points to show where myself & others are coming from.

I also hate that i'm being backed into a corner where I have to say bad things about Buddy Rose, because while i'm not nearly as high on him as some of you are, I enjoy the fuck out of his Portland stuff, and to a lesser extent, the AWA stuff as well.

Niche fetishism? You do realize that puroresu is a niche fetishism within a niche fetishism of hardcore fandom? It's basically lesbian porn within the large niche industry of porn. New Japan 2013 is Girlfriend Films, and Tanahashi is Prinzzess. So your meme of knocking other niches within the industry that folks like is pretty laughable. I mean, I get it. I use to be a hardcore fan who was a Flair Fan in the 80s and 90s, enjoyed looking down my nose at those silly WWF workers like Hogan, and it made me feel all warm and fuzzy will in the Forum with 2000 fans while Hogan was over at the Sports Arena drawing 14000. We all need what makes us feel warm and fuzzy, and justifies what we hold dear about niches within the niche. When I say niche fetishism, i'm knocking this idea of bringing up people like Buddy Rose & Bill Dundee in the context of discussing great workers getting into the WON HOF on work & work alone, which is what people have done here. There is a total lack of self awareness around here when people do that, because this is like the only corner in the universe where people pimp that hard for guys like that. Which is fine, but you have to understand who votes, who they vote for, and what the voting patterns are. Of course this wrestling nonsense is all one big niche. No shit. But nobody can't tell me that Buddy Rose would be a first ballot HOF'er based on work & work alone (something that was really posted here in a non ironic way, which is mind blowing), when not only did he not get in on his first try (when others did), but he's off the ballot entirely and will never get in. Then you have Bix saying Rose as a working genius is not an outlier opinion. Again, I call bullshit. At least in the context of WON HOF voters, which is what this thread is about. Otherwise, if he was a true working genius he would have been voted in a long time ago, or at minimum on the ballot floating in purgatory with Sting & Curt Hennig. So you guys can keep driving the focus to the perceived insult of the niche fetishism comment, but it's absolutely true when describing the opinions of certain wrestlers here, and there is a lack of self awareness attached to that. That's not meant as an insult, even though I can see where it comes off as one. In fact, that's the reason I post (well, mostly lurk, as you can see why I don't post very often) here. I come here for those opinions, and enjoy them. Anyway, I knew this would turn negative in a hurry. That's why I chose not to continue. I don't feel the need to make a super detailed case when it will be a colossal waste of time anyway. You have goodhelmet asking me to compare 70's territory heels to a 2013 New Japan style worker, which is dumb and makes no sense. The fact I don't think Buddy Rose or Dick Murdoch can lace Tanahashi's boots is enough for me to know that even if it was possible to construct that type of argument, it will just lead to more circular arguing that goes nowhere. I mean, what does Tanahashi do in the ring better than Murdoch? I don't know, aside from virtually everything except conveying the old ragged bar fighter aura? What do you want me to say? It's a loaded question as our opinions are clearly vastly different. What i'm saying here, which nobody seems to be picking up on, is that my opinions on Tanahashi happen to fall more in line with a typical voter. Something you didn't even bother trying to rebut, because honestly you can't unless Tanahashi gets 8% or something, and we know that isn't happening. There are segments of people who don't like Misawa matches, too. Too many head drops. There are pockets of people who think Flair is repetitive and overrated. And people who don't get Tanahashi. The last group happens to reside here. That's fine. But have some semblance of self awareness. This is all i'm saying. I don't particularly like Jumbo matches and I think Barry Windham is incredibly average, but I also recognize that i'm the oddball.