W2BTD

If anything with how much New Japan he watched Joe should realize how there was zero chance that move was going to finish Okada. Who gives a shit if he beat some goof with it on the Road To tour when he hasn't won a meaningful singles match with it since 2011? OK, but by this logic I shouldn't have popped for anything because the entire world knew Okada was winning anyway. At the end of the day, Keith is right. If you were all in on the feud, you were going to love what they did because of all of the cool little layers. As someone super invested in the story, little things like Tanahashi using the cloverleaf against goofs on Road To shows for two months in order to set up one spot in the WK main event is something that I find super cool, not because I was going to buy into it as the finish, but because it's an added story element and pays you off for paying attention and giving a shit. These things are going to mean more to someone like me than breaking down working mechanics, but the less invested you are in what you are watching, the more you are going to focus on things like that. Anyway, my point here is that psychology is more than selling limbs. This match was loaded with deep, layered psychology. All of that stuff meant far more to me than someone using a dropkick after some leg work possibly being illogical, but with that said I'm not someone who ever gets wrapped up on the minutiae of limb selling unless it's really egregious.

I pretty much am in line with your take although I was personally bugged more by the inconsistent selling (to the point that it veered over into absurdity for me personally) than the overuse of dropkicks by Okada (which was a trope started in the Tenryu match). I dubbed it a ridiculous match on Twitter, as I think that was an apt description, both as a positive and a negative, although some may just be on one side of the spectrum. Keith, I have a lot to say here. I wouldn't make a post like this with someone I didn't know, but since I know you have thick skin, are an analytical guy, and I know you know the place I'm coming from, I'm going to let fly on a few things. The dropkicks were symbolic. That's how he beat Tenryu, the retiring ace. So he used them again against the rival ace. That Tenryu match was as much a part of this 4-year story as the Tanahashi matches. Describing the dropkicks as "trope", and I don't mean this disrespectfully at all, means that a key part of the storytelling went over your head. I also saw your Tweet earlier this: "Ignore the bog standard opening, wacky psychology, reversals for the sake of them & inconsistent selling it was perfect." Again, "reversals for the sake of them" indicates you didn't understand the story, especially coupled with "bog standard opening". I'll explain. Within the first 30 seconds of the match, when Okada tried to do his usual arrogant chest slap on the rope break and Tanahashi was ready with a wild right had, it was obvious what one of the themes of the match was going to be. They've wrestled 8 times. Countess tags. The constant reversals and counters were because by this point both men knew the other man inside and out. The first 10-15 was each guy going through his usual shit and the other guy countering or reversing. Later, they did the same with their big spots and bombs (Okada struggling to land the tombstone all match long, for example). It wasn't reversals "for the sake of it" like two indie geeks in a VFW hall in Alabama trying to copy what they see on YouTube, it was an integral part of the 8-match story. Wacky psychology boggles my mind, because this match featured some of the best long term match to match psychology I've ever seen. Of course, that's subjective, because if for example I parachuted in to watch a mask vs mask match between two luchadores who were feuding for 30 years, I'd certainly miss most if not all of the subtle (and even not subtle) psychology and callbacks. Now, I'm not saying that you parachuted in for this match. I'm sure you've seen the others or most of the others. But hopefully you see my point. The leg selling. Again, that was by design (and in my opinion, Okada's selling was good). Tanahashi destroyed the leg last year with all of the dragon screws and HFF's to the lower body. That was his strategy again. That's why he used the cloverleaf for months to beat everybody else. Okada survived the cloverleaf, and overcame the leg attacks. Like everything else they threw at each other strategically, it simply didn't work. Okada getting desperate and chasing Rainmakers. Didn't work. Both guys failing with their own finish and trying the other guys big move. Didn't work. Tanahashi taking out the legs. Didn't work. Someone else in this thread said it best. This was Game 7 and it came down to guts and who wanted it more. The finishing stretch was FUCK IT, wild desperation, throw everything against the wall. Anyway, this was never going to be or supposed to be some sort of "work the leg" match that some people seem to be evaluating it as. That would have been incredibly disappointing to end the rivalry that way. This was an epic, four year story that paid off everything in the final chapter. When it comes to wrestling psychology, there are many ways to skin the cat. Somebody not limping enough is missing the point, and to me an odd way to deconstruct this match, but to each his own.

Tanahashi worked the leg(s) because that's how he beat Okada last year. He destroyed Okada's legs until he could no longer stand. Tanahashi tried working the arm at Invasion Attack 2013, and that strategy failed. Going back to what worked best was part of the long term math to match psychology. Expanding on that, Tanahashi had been using the cloverleaf as a finish on recent tours. The cloverleaf spot during the match probably came off as filler spot to some, but it was a subtle part of the build and played into the leg theme of Tanahashi's victory the previous year. There was a lot of subtle stuff like that happening in the match, and right from the jump. I can see what people thought the first 15 were filler in a vacuum. If you've been immersed in the feud from day one, everything they did was contextual. The early part of the match with all of the counters and reversals told the story of both men needing new strategies, and was so important to the rest of the match. There really was a ton going on for the hardcores like myself who were emotionally invested in all of this. The final ten minutes were great for casuals dropping in. It had the epic big show main even feel. I thought it was the kind of match that worked well for everyone on at least some level.

In terms of Jetlag's breakdown of the match vs mine, it's clearly just a difference in what we look for in a match. For example, he mentioned Shingo hitting a Death Valley Bomb on the apron, then going right back to working the legs instead of going for a pin. I had no recollection of that spot at all, and went back to look for it. Goes to show that something that irked him was not only non offensive to me, but that I didnt even remember the spot period. He saw it as a big spot that wasn't treated as such, I saw a cool cutoff spot. He then mentioned some Shingo kicks that didn't land, and Shingo redeeming himself later with good punches. I almost never lay attention to or notice quality of strikes unless they're particularly awful or crazy stiff looking, so this was a facet of the match that I would have never thought to analyze as it's low. on the list of things I look for or care about. The point here is added context may have helped him understand Mocchi fighting through the leg damage, but it isn't going to help with the technical nuances of the work in regards to things he looks for in his matches. DG workers will use things like Death Valley Bombs as a cutoff or transition spot. Your personal mileage will vary on whether that bothers you, indifferent, or flat out like big bombs at any time.

Shingo attacked the legs early in the match, then cockily (is that even a word?) taunted/baited Mocchi into kicking him to prove he had taken the kicks away. The first few kicks had no power, and Shingo taunted/laughed at him, before Mocchi dig deep and kicked his chest in to show the that the strategy didn't work. Shingo was pretty brilliant in that moment selling not only the kicks, but the shock that the old man still had something left in his legs, and to me that was one of the key moments in the match to establish the story of the old vet completely emptying the tank but still coming up short vs the asshole punk heel. So the idea that Mocchi didn't sell the leg work being a negative, at least in this instance, holds little water, and probably does speak to Case's point of parachuting in a few times per year to watch big DG matches being an issue to understanding the psychology sometimes. I think this is true to an extent in any promotion, but more so in DG, where literally no small detail in history is ever completely forgotten, and stuff flies over the heads of hardcore fans a lot of the time. Shingo is currently in the middle of beating the old guys one by one, and was coming off doing the same to Don Fujii. Gamma is next.

Given that Styles is primarily a work candidate and he was churning out high quality matches in TNA/ROH/indies on a regular basis from 2002-2013, it would be wrong to say he accomplished absolutely nothing. Clearly, Dave values that a lot more than his electorate does. I've argued this before and even have spoken with Dave about it, he agreed with me (this past week). If you are a great "worker" say on the Bryan Danielson level when he was on top with ROH and having great matches in front of approximatley 500 people 10 times a month, even if you win a "best worker" award. Does that really fit under Hall of Fame criteria? Look at the dozens and dozens of wrestlers in Europe that did just that for decades, guys that were great "workers" for years but only worked in small halls in Europe. Are they Hall of Famers? Look at the dozens of GREAT wrestlers that worked small territories in the US, some that were even stars in their territories that were excellent workers, are the Hall of Famers? We didn't have "best worker" awards in the 1960's or 1970's let alone in the 1930's. Being a great worker has been HIGHLY overrated when it comes to being a Hall of Famer. And if you were not a great worker on a high level stage then you should not be a Hall of Famer. I have a ton of problems with this. How is being a great worker highly overrated when it comes to being a Hall of Famer? If anything, great workers get the shaft. Daniel Bryan is the greatest worker of his generation and he didn't make it. There are plenty of people who wouldn't hesitate to rate Jun Akiyama as a top 20 or even top 10 all time great worker and he isn't even sniffing induction. Blue Panther. AJ Styles can't even get 10%. The HOF has three stated pieces of criteria: -Drawing ability -Work, or excelling in ones area of pro wrestling (managers, bookers, etc) -Historical significance Nowhere does it say any of the three are more important than the others or should be weighted heavier. It says a candidate should excel in all three, or be overwhelmingly impressive in one or two. There is a clear voting bias towards those who excel in drawing ability. I listened to all of your audio with dave, and your primary focus (and sometimes ONLY focus) was drawing. Any candidate who won Best Draw five years in a row would moonwalk into the HOF, even if they were the worst worker of all time. Yet Daniel Bryan was the consensus best worker for a half decade, with the Most Outstanding hardware to prove it, and he doesn't get in. And the highest grossing Wrestle Mania of all time was built around him to boot. It's not a drawing hall of fame, yet many voters treat it that way. The idea that being great in front of 500 fans is meaningless not only comes off snobbish, but also somewhat ignorant to what pro wrestling is in this era. Context should matter. ROH will go down as a historically significant promotion that produced overlooked stars that the business completely missed the boat on in some cases, and hopped on the boat too late with others. Daniel Bryan was much more than a good hand in a small territory, he was a transcendent performer who is one of the best of all time. A comparable draw receives no debate whatsoever. Work being overrated is complete bullshit. Read the criteria. If dave wants drawing emphasized more than the other criteria, he should just say so. Until then, anyone who fails to vote for Daniel Bryan is completely lost and without a clue.

TNA is going to go down in history as the promotion with the most unknown gems, because people continually write it off due to booking nonsense and for being... well, for being TNA. Years from now when we're all dead, a website like this is going to do a focuses rewatch of the best of TNA and be shocked at how great some of the stuff is, because TNA simply never ever gets pimped.

Wow. I'm kind of stunned. I thought it was worked far more like a traditional world title match more so than a "DG style" match. And even though this is Mochizuki's thread, I though Shingo was not only better in the match, but that it was probably the best overall performance of Shingo's career, with focused selling and some great storytelling. I thought the pacing was pretty deliberate and perfect fr the story, and i'm not seeing where it felt like a DG running contest at all. Maybe because I watch so much DG that something like this came off as slower paced, where as if you are dropping in to watch a pimped match, it still feels fast. I don't know.

I know you aren't disagreeing and speaking more from the perspective of the Japan voters, but Tanahashi's resume blows Nakamura out of the water. So does Akiyama's, for that matter. CIMA has a stronger resume than Nak, too. With all of that said, and even though I didn't vote for him, I'm not annoyed that he got in.

Imagine it being as simple as that. Before I discovered this board, I don't think I ever encountered effusive praise for Bill Dundee. Let's not pretend he's some universally revered super worker.

Huh? That post is about shorter attention spans in society as a whole and the challenges workers face working in front of modern crowds as a result. I used that WWF 80's house show spot as an example or something you rarely (if ever) see anymore, which to me is a direct result of that type of spot leaving too much room to lose a modern audience. I could have used the long abdominal stretch spot next to the ropes where the heel grabs the ropes for leverage behind the refs back, or hide the invisible chain, or a million other spots that you rarely ever see these days as the example. I wasn't trying to say that the long tease side headlock was held up as the gold standard of classic wrestling.

One philosophical thing that we never got into because we went into more of a fun "three dudes bullshitting about wrestling" direction, is that I believe the way wrestlers work a match, like anything else, has been forced to evolve over time. Think about a 1980's WWF house show mid card match. Heel grabs a hold. Say, a reverse chin lock. Fans slow clap, get behind the baby, he balls his fists, gets to his feet... and the heel cuts him off and grinds the hold back in. This goes on two or three or four more times, the baby getting closer and closer to breaking the hold. A good heel knows just when to peak this, and when the baby finally delivers those elbows to the gut, breaks free, and makes his fiery comeback, the fans go bonkers. We've all seen that spot a million times. That used to be indicative of great work. You can't work like that anymore. You will lose a modern crowd working like that. Everybody in the venue, ages 8 - 80, has some sort of device... a phone, a tablet, a smart watch... and it is harder than ever to hold a crowd of peoples attention. That "grab a hold, work a tease, go to the comeback" spot would die a painful death if you tried that shit in 2015. WWE wrestlers grab holds for 15 seconds these days and lose crowds. Imagine working that classic spot for 8 or 9 minutes. Of course the crowd would lose interest, and maybe even *GASP* break in to a chant. You have to work faster now, provide more action, because attention spans are shorter than ever. People won't sit there and watch you grind in a side headlock, because they'll just play Candy Crush or refresh their Twitter page instead. I'm in my late 30's and i'm addicted to my phone, and the generations younger than me are even worse. Holding peoples attention has never been harder. It used to be that the match was the entertainment when you went to a match, but now if the match stinks, finding something else to do is right in your pocket. We've all seen bored RAW crowds playing with their phones. I'd much rather a bored RAW crowd puts themselves over with a chant. At least they're trying.

This show was a blast to do and I wanted to thank Kris publicly for the invite. I'll do it again any time.

I would never vote for him, but he's probably more versatile than a good chunk of the nominees.

He was also very good on the opposite side of squashes, making guys look great. In fact. I think it was one of his strengths as a worker.

Yeah, we're just far apart on what we enjoy, which is cool. I like guys taking turns trying to prove who is tougher and "macho horseshit" in my wrestling. That's probably why I like Sugiura more than most, because that's his style to a tee.

One event. 1200 paid.

Yoshitsune is the craziest flyer that nobody has ever heard of. He should have been a big star, but instead he bounced around sleazy indies until he screwed up and was forced into hiding.

The strike exchanges made sense. Sugiura's gimmick is a bull headed tough guy who has more guts than brains. The match was a FIGHT between two tough guys who were refusing to back down or wilt from the other. Of course, this is where I differ from a lot of people here when it comes to NJPW style forearm battles or modern puro style strike exchanges. I love that stuff. It fires me up and almost always adds to a match for me, especially when it's two stubborn tough guys like these two in a big time grudge match, beating each other senseless because both boys would rather risk getting killed than back down from the other.

Bingo. Everybody is an outlier with regards something. It doesn't really matter if Joe Lanza & Alan4L blow off Lawler or Dylan & someone else blow off Tanahashi because consensus will take over and those guys will get plenty of votes anyway. But I think it's fine that the people who don't get Lawler and the people who don't get Tanahashi have a voice, especially when it's well reasoned. Otherwise, what is the point of any of this? Name 40 guys who are forced consensus, and leave the other 60 up to the voters.

If I was approaching this as "favorites" and not "greatest" my final list wouldn't look a lot different than this: 1. Curt Hennig 2. Satoshi Kojima 3. Sabu 4. 2 Cold Scorpio 5. Hayabusa 6. Jake Roberts 7. Red Bastein 8. Blue Panther 9. Ricochet 10. Akira Tozawa Some (not all) of those guys will make my list, but my top ten will look nothing like that. Hirooki Goto might be my favorite current NJPW wrestler aside from Kojima but will struggle to make the back end of my list, while Hiroshi Tanahashi, who if I were ranking it out would be like my 8th favorite current NJPW guy, is a lock for my top 10 and is being considered for #1. The idea that not ranking Lawler or Dibiase or whatever sacred cow random voter #28 isn't ranking is rooted in some sort of issue with the process and choosing favorites over the best is nonsense. This may be difficult for you to comprehend parv, but I don't think Lawler was so hot. I just don't. And if you think it's because I ignore Memphis, well, you're wrong. Not to say I don't have blind spots, because I do, and everybody who votes will have blind spots, but Lawler is not one of them. People who listen to my show or follow me on Twitter know that I've rewatched the Shield/Wyatts match from Elimination Chamber 2014 four or five times now, desperately trying to grasp why the consensus opinion is that it was an incredible, brilliant MOTY bout. I've tried several times, and I still don't get it. I still see it as a decent ***+ match and i'm not seeing what everybody else is seeing. Same with Lawler. I watch his pimped stuff, and I come away thinking "ok, that was fine I guess, but that's it?" The Shield/Wyatts match kicked ass on our VOW MOTY poll, and Lawler will kick ass in this poll. So maybe that makes me "wrong". I have no problem with that, but I have a huge problem being told that "my process is wrong" or that i'm "playing favorites" or that a poll that includes someone who doesn't rank Lawler is invalid somehow. That goes beyond arrogance. These are opinions, man. Of course personal taste plays a part. How can it not? I love the DG style and don't begrudge anyone a single bit for blowing it off completely if they know it'll be a waste of time and that the best DG style worker in their eyes won't rank anyway. I've dabbled in WoS enough to know that I don't like it. I'm supposed to rank Jim Breaks just because? Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. How is this any different than not ranking jazz records, parv?

I won't rank Rude or Dibiase. You'd have to make this a Top 1000 before I'd even consider Lawler, and he'll be #1 on a few ballots. Isn't that the beauty of the project?

Akiyama is without question still one of the best in the world. I would not blink if someone put him in a Top 5. Of stuff not mentioned, seek out Akiyama's series of matches (singles & tags) vs Kento Miyahara from last year. Had that feud had taken place in a promotion that wasn't effectively completely dead with little hope of serious revival any time soon, Miyahara would be on a path to stardom right now. Akiyama does an incredible job of getting a kid over as a "star" within the context of what a "star" can be in that universe.

Should be noted that dave abstains from Europe. Or at least he has in the past.

Unfortunately for him, his WWE run was not good at all, and that was some prime exposure. He was one of the laziest house show workers in a company full of lazy house show workers, and so much of that is on tape. Not as high on Doom as most everybody else seems to be. Reed's best stuff is the hardest to find.