SomethingSavage

I'm stuck here at work & too lazy to do much digging, but what's Punk looking like these days to seem so unhealthy?

I've said it before, but I really feel like their best option for freshening up the MITB concept is to establish that the briefcase contains an open contract for ANY match - not just championships. The whole promotion is practically booked on the idea of "dream matches" at this point anyway. Their booking is basically fan-fiction, with very little attention paid to canon or continuity of any kind. Might as well lean into that AND make the MITB premise somewhat interesting again. It would open the door to guys challenging legends, putting focus on returning acts like Cena or Taker sp that they seemingly mean more, or just sticking with the usual "heel runs in and wins title via banana peel" that they love so much. But at least there would be more avenues & options to explore.

+1 for the Houston Wrestling recommendation. I'd also suggest checking out the Goldust and RVD episodes, if you're still in need of something to kill time after those others. Both offer some extra insight and fun stories, although they're admittedly a step or two below the Jarrett and Macho Man editions. Those two TNA episodes are really interesting, too. The PPV spotlights are usually some of their worst, along with a few of their profile pieces - Punk, Edge, and Bischoff in particular being some of the weaker ones so far.

I listen to both, although I should clarify that I can't really recall which talking points come from which specific show by this point. If you were forced to choose though, the Drive Thru is ultimately going to be the better option just by its format alone.

I'm kind of convinced Natalya has entered that weird phase where owners start to take on physical traits and literally look like their pets.

Yeah, I feel like they found a winning formula for Cornette's show awhile back. I've been enjoying them again for a few months now. I think it began with some of the "dying days of Crockett" spotlights, and then they improved upon that with the WWF and SMW stuff. Of course, he still rants & raves about the topical stuff, too. But it doesn't smother the shows or anything. It's presented more as part of the act - let "old man Corny" shake his fist & shout at clouds from his front porch for a few minutes, and we'll move on. It's kind of a case of something that's become his signature, so he's still going to do it. With that being said, even those aren't intolerable or anything. He was honest & upfront enough to admit when he was wrong about All In, for instance - even going as far as to play his original audio and then admitting they exceeded expectations. It doesn't come without him bashing Omega and the Bucks, of course. But, I mean, come on. Corny gonna Corny. Jim will hold onto his biases, but I *do* feel like the talking point of him being completely out of touch is exaggerated. His recent reviews of shows like the Raw anniversary and Mania were both on the fucking money, and his instincts about the Smackdown on Fox deal feel right on point also.

So apparently Jerry Jarrett was on Bowden's Kentucky Fried podcast, and he responded to Bruce's bullshit. Jerry basically said Bruce was the most miserable person he encountered during his time in New York. He said Prichard was practically just Pat Patterson's errand boy, who was bitter about having a short-lived failure of a gimmick. Tremendous.

I recognize the difference between supposed facts and opinions. It just doesn't bother me much. I expect the Eric Bischoffs and Bruce Prichards to spin some yarns, to embellish, to exaggerate, and to sensationalize. Workers gonna work. When you listen to these podcasts, you're listening to bullshit artists who found success in a bullshit business. You can't come in with unrealistic standards. It's not a deposition setting. Nobody has been sworn in. They're usually only going to give their side of the story. I'm not sure why anyone would expect anything else. I just feel like some folks take this stuff way too seriously - using it as an excuse to pretend to be outraged over more "fake newz!" or whatever. But what do I know? I'm more than comfortable being the outlier around here. I don't listen to these podcasts as part of some fact-finding crusade. I'm not listening to play private eye or prove I'm the smartest guy in the room about any given subject. I just listen for the stories. I can appreciate differing accounts of an event or opposing versions of a story without feeling the need to cast judgment one way or another. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely appreciate this place for the discussion and all the knowledge passed around here. But I'm partial to the bullshitting and the storytelling offered in these things. I'll take the "McMahon cigarette on a plane" story, the "partying with Chris Adams in a trailer park" story, or the "McMahon coaches Kelly Kelly on how to dance" deal over ANY attendance report or star rating I could ever get from Dave. That's just where I'm at as a fan at this point. Fifteen years or so ago? Maybe that's a different situation. But I've been that kind of fan. I'm just not there anymore. I couldn't possibly care any less about watching wrestling with a notepad or with a design to assign rankings to everything I'm watching. And it's a similar situation with podcasts now. I do find it amusing that wrestling fans claim to love "great workers"... Up until they catch a hint of someone trying to work them. Then that person is just a liar and a conman. No. They're workers. And the smart ones will figure out how to continue to work things in their favor, regardless of whether it's labeled a "shoot" or a podcast or whatever. Those things are all just new tools to do the same old job.

I've been at work tonight/this evening. But, with a little research, it looks like there was already a tap out in WCW in May of '96. That's nearly a full year before Shamrock landed in the WWF and started to popularize it. I mean, sure. All I've got is Dean Malenko making Ohtani tap out in a Cruiserweight Title match. I have no idea if this was a one-off or part of any suggestion from Terry Taylor whatsoever. Regardless, it's still neat to know in sorting out the timeline of this stuff. Also, there's a result of Taz beating Jason in October 1995(!) ECW. So you may be right, man. It just might be Taz. EDIT: Didn't see your post until after I'd finished mine, but yeah. Looks like we found the same result.

1999 is such an outlier though. Crash TV is in full effect. They slap you in the face with sex and innuendos at every opportunity. And the in-ring action is an afterthought. I don't know that I'd introduce anyone with that stuff. Maybe if you restricted their viewing to just one Austin/McMahon segment or something. But, even then, you've got much better options in the spring of '98. There are some really fun, self-contained episodes of Raw in '97 and '98 that would probably play pretty well with any general TV audience. The first McMahon/Austin face off, the Bret/Austin ambulance angle, Austin confronting Tyson - all that stuff is story-driven, character-centric TV unfolding in front of molten hot crowds.

I just wish I could've been there to see him volunteer for the Doomsday Device off the stripper stage. Like, did he do the standard flat-back bump like a pussy? Or did he eat shit, pal & go full HOG with the backflip bump and wind up somewhere between the DJ booth and the All Day breakfast buffet?

The Shamrock deal is really close in the timeline. Shamrock shows up in time for Mania, and I'm pretty sure the first instance of tapping out is that Billy Gunn segment sometime right before the guest ref deal at 13. Psicosis and Ultimo have their Respect Match at the Great American Bash in June of that year, which is obviously later - but their feud began sometime back in February or March, so there's some flexible room in the timeline there. I wasn't following the WWF religiously week to week. I mostly saw the closing segment and/or beginning of Raw. WCW felt hotter at that point in 1997, and it was still priority viewing over the WWF at that point in my household. So that may explain why I remember the Psi-Ultimo feud as the instance that introduced me to the tap out concept. I don't think I saw the Shamrock-Gunn segment until later, when I became obsessed with going back & seeing everything in its entirety. The Taz thing is interesting to me though. Was he really having opponents tap out as early as '96? Because that's earlier by a definitive margin. It *seems* like I've heard Taz talk about it before on a podcast, but I'm not 100% sure what it is I'm remembering. Maybe that early episode of the Austin podcast? I definitely remember him touching on his upbringing and training there.

The Psicosis-Ultimo program was running sometime in the spring & early summer of '97. They had a Respect Match, which was basically just a submission match, at some point as the blow-off on PPV. All of that was happening around the same time as Shamrock in the WWF. The Billy Gunn segment was a bit earlier - either right before or after Mania. I'm only going off memory here, but I'm sure someone knows specific dates & timeframes for that. That's pretty much how Jericho spelled it out, too. Taylor suggested the cruisers and mid-card guys start using it, because it made for a better visual on television AND was something universally understood in English, Japanese, and Spanish. It's just so interesting to me, because - while I'd heard Taz and Shamrock mentioned in the discussion before - I'd never heard Taylor in that conversation. It's not often you hear a new version of events or a brand new side of a story, so I was definitely intrigued by the idea.

I really dug the Bret episode from last week. Regardless of where you draw the line for Eric's bullshit versus Bret's claims in his book, at least Bischoff took a stand and made a case for his own version of events. I'm not the type to fact check every claim on every podcast. I'm the type to throw in my ear buds in my truck, at the gym, or at work and just listen to some fun stories being told. I'm always up for new sides of these stories or whatever possible insight can be offered from these new sources & voices. Do I believe some of this stuff is absolute bullshit? Of course. Workers gonna work, and it's typically bullshit artists working in a bullshit business. I *expect* everyone to be out to offer THEIR side of the story. That's not strictly a pro wrestling thing. That's a human nature thing. At the end of the day, I'm no more bothered or offended by Eric or Bruce's bullshit than I am by Dave's insistence that Okada and Omega have had the greatest match in the history of the business. It's all individuals pushing their view of things. It's what happens. People form perspectives, and then they share them. Bringing it back to the Bret episode though - does anyone know if word of Eric's claims have reached Bret yet? Surely there would be a response. I was also hoping to hear Conrad press for more information about the Thunder/Nitro roster split. It kept coming up, with Eric outright saying it was the only reason he'd brought in Bret in the first place. But it just lingered there with no follow-up, time after time. At one point, it sounded like it was supposed to be WCW Thunder versus nWo Nitro. But how does that work exactly? Logistically, how do you run two weekly shows that are rivals for one another? What do they do every week? Obviously, there needs to be rivalries within those rosters - and Eric even talked about that a little, mentioning the Bret vs. Flair feud as something that would help to carry WCW Thunder in its early months. And Conrad has needled Schiavone about the Thunder vs. Nitro rumors on numerous occasions over on earlier episodes of WHW, so it's not like he isn't aware. I don't know. Maybe he's deliberately holding off for a Thunder specific topic or something, but it was just weird that he never drilled down on it - despite it coming up over & over again that Bret was signed specifically to fill out the main event scene for the Thunder roster.

So I've been going back and filling in the gaps, listening to older episodes of podcasts I may have missed before. P2B, Austin, Jericho, etc. In listening to some older Jericho interviews, I've hit several episodes where he's talking a lot to various guests about the Performance Center. Terry Taylor's name has come up several times, and Jericho specifically told a story of Taylor helping him back in WCW - suggesting his heel turn and the acquisition of a submission finisher. Jericho then goes on to credit Taylor with bringing the concept of the tap out to the North American wrestling scene. Jericho states how he never saw it being used before that period, and it only became popular after Taylor insisted that Jericho, Benoit, etc. use it for a greater visual effect in their finishes. Are there any corroborating comments from other WCW guys to support this story? I've never heard it credited to Taylor before, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to call bullshit right away either. The timeline isn't that far off. I definitely remember when the frantic nodding and head-shaking indicated a submission, and I even remember the first time *I* personally saw/heard about tap out submissions. It was in the thick of the Psicosis-Ultimo-Sonny Onoo stuff in WCW circa '97, and Mike Tenay was on the call - illustrating the history and informing the audience of how the tap out was a universal declaration of submission, crossing all cultural boundaries and understood in all languages. It's something that made total sense & stuck with me at the time. Do you guys remember earlier instances of the tap out being used here in North America? Over the years in shoot interviews, I know I've heard some people talk up the idea of Taz opening that door. I've even heard some say that the first time it was shown was in early '97 in the Shamrock/Billy Gunn exhibition segment. But that never sounded quite right to me. I admittedly haven't done a deep dive to find out or anything, but I figured I could just leapfrog the leg work & ask you guys instead.

Kudos to the latest Survey Says podcast for reminding me, but I really dug Vampiro's WCW entrance music. I don't know much of anything about the Insane Clown Posse's actual discography, but that track always sounded pretty cool. Also enjoyed the music they provided for the Oddities. As a standalone song, it doesn't hold up or compare to Vamp's - but it was a pitch perfect for for the Oddities' act & the overall presentation of their entrance.

No. You haven't missed anything. No. Seth has not found an identity or a personality yet. He's still Freakin. Or the Architect. Or the Kingslayer. Or whateverthefuck meaningless, hollow nickname he cooks up this year. Seth has had the match of the night - or at least been in that conversation - on a number of occasions since January or February. That's really it. People started talking about him "being on a roll", and it just snowballed from there. Nobody knows what he's supposed to be or represent. Nobody knows what he's burning down. Nobody knows why his idea of selling is the exact same as his idea of firing up - and both of those things seem to hinge on him hissing loudly. A lot. Nothing much has changed. Maybe he's tuned up his pace a frog's hair here or there, but it's nothing that noticeable. He just happens to be the guy having the best matches on some of these oppressively long cards. He functions fine as the mid-card mainstay, but I still say his rep immediately suffers if they thrust him back into that main event spot.

Who would want to keep up with all the content they put out now? I just don't get that mentality. It's like so many fans feel obligated to watch every second of shit they put out. Why? What's the point? With the Network and all their various weekly shows, WWE is on the brink of becoming a CNN-like channel or having content produced and pumped out 24/7. Some of you will likely be faced with the decision of quitting your jobs, abandoning your families, and living as shut-ins just to stay all caught up with your WWE. It's reached a ridiculous level of commitment already. It's meant to be a hobby. When it's no longer enjoyable, I stop doing it. I'm not being paid to stick with this stuff. It's why I can't comprehend people treating it that way - like some obligation or duty to be carried out. PWG is the only promotion I can keep current with, because their schedule is so easy to follow for me. If WWE had a similar schedule with limited lineups and a handful of angles per year, then yeah. I'd stay caught up with them, too. But, ya know. Life. Priorities. And all that good stuff.

Breaking news: WWE fans voice outrage over having no voice. Continue to stay tuned for 5 hour shows anyway.

Lex stood up to the Horsemen first though. He got his defining, defiant moment by refusing to eliminate himself and allow JJ to win the battle royal.

Finally got around to listening to the pod. Another enjoyable show. Has the "heel is betrayed and kicked out of his heel faction" angle ever successfully worked to spawn a new baby face? It failed with Orton in 2004. It failed with Rollins recently. And both scenarios were covered in this topic, and it sparked my curiosity. The major issues of this situation were addressed. The premise itself is problematic, because it almost always feels like the intended new baby face was discarded by the heel group, rather than having a change of heart or a genuine heroic moment to ignite the change himself. Instead, it just looks like the guy wasn't good enough to hang with the tougher, meaner heels. He appears like a lesser than - and perception is a powerful resource in pro wrestling. So these new baby face are practically handicapped right out of the gate. I initially thought about Foley being booted from the Corporation in late '98, but I feel like that one's kind of a cheat. Mick was already garnering sympathy from the fans in the whole "surrogate son" of Mr. McMahon role for months before the actual turn was put in motion. With guys like Seth and Randy, the exile was the exact, specific moment meant to spark the turn.

Cornette's pod has been mostly enjoyable again for awhile now. I like Last well enough. I know some folks complain that he doesn't contribute much, and that's fair. But he's totally inoffensive & stays out of the way also, which is a major improvement over some co-hosts. What happened with Corny and the MLW deal? I heard what he had to say about it on his pod, which wqsort of vague and PC (by Jim's standards). Maybe there really isn't anything there worth discussing, but I just figures I'd ask in case any of you guys knew more on the matter.

He's been surprisingly insightful so far here. There's still plenty of sidestepping and some of his usual stock replies, but he's gone in-depth on several things already. A lot of them veer more into the business side of his dealings with Turner or talent, but it's what he knows & that's his experience. This may eventually get very old very quickly, but it's refreshing and insightful enough right now.

Nah, I get that. I appreciate the explanation and all, but hearing Bruce explain it could give you a better idea of what I mean. Basically, Bruce had no idea the red makeup was put on him like that. He goes out, does his Brother Love bit, and notices red makeup all over his white suit. The red makeup was never mentioned to him beforehand as being part of the look of the gimmick. I'm not saying there wasn't a reason behind it. I'm saying it sounds like it was done to fuck with Bruce and get a few laughs, but he rationalized it and just kind of kept it going. At that point, Vince probably just shrugged and said, "Fuck it. Keep painting him red."

After hearing the Finger Poke of Doom episode, is it odd that I'm convinced I would've enjoyed the shit out of that February NBC special? First of all, there's the name. "Love Hurts"..? It's so glorious in its cheese, yet it's totally fitting for WCW and its history with holiday themes. And just imagine the set! Decorated like the honeymoon suite or some shit with silk and heart-shaped shit everywhere. Oh. And a wrestling DIVORCE instead of a wrestling wedding? Plus, it's Dennis Rodman and "Miss MTV Spring Break" Carmen Electra?! Sign me the fuck up to watch that, stat. I mean, seriously. Is there anything on earth *MORE* Eric Bischoff than doing a traditional wrestling trope in reverse with celebrities? This thing was a fucking winner, friends. And it's a shame we never got to see it unfold. Fuck Bill Goldberg's redemption streak coming undone. Because this. This is the true tragedy in the wake of the Finger Poke of Doom when it's all said & done.