pol

I think such a demographic are far more inclined to be hypercritical of the product while continuing to follow it, too. You see the same thing in pretty much every fandom. There's still hardcore Simpsons fan forums where people watch every new episode live while saying the show hasn't been good in 15 years.

I think this is on point. The modern adult fanbase has a LOT of crossover with fans of comic book franchises and shows like Dr. Who. The entirety of 'nerd culture' is predicated on defining your identity through the media you consume, so it makes sense that such a fanbase would be more inclined to drop large sums of money on the product. As an aside, this kind of fanbase (and the shift of mainstream culture towards this kind of thing in general) is why WWE should be pushing guys in the Daniel Bryan/Sami Zayn/Bayley mold HARD. But they're out of touch so instead they still see Roman Reigns as the next big thing.

I don't understand what's suddenly inspiring such passion from the hardcore WWE fans though. In CMLL's case it's obvious why the Aniversario is by far the biggest show of the year. WrestleMania I get, but Summerslam? It's not like the build was particularly good. Is it just Taker/Brock?

This is a really fascinating topic so it's a shame to see the discussion here turn into yet another hashing out of 'what WWE needs to do to be better' that you can find in dozens of other threads on this forum. Anyway, this came up again on a recent Observer Radio. Dave noted that it's really the same pattern across all the major promotions; NJPW Korakuen business is down while their big shows are selling out. CMLL is about to do a record gate while having 10,000+ empty seats for the average Friday show. Are there similar reasons for this across promotions? One pattern I see is that both CMLL and NJPW have extremely weak TV situations that severely hamper their ability to reach a non-hardcore audience and thus create new fans. WWE's TV situation is strong, but the creative is weak and a 3 hour show is too big a commitment for many existing fans, never mind a non-fan curious about the product. All three promotions lack exciting new stars at the top of the card (NJPW having created some most recently with Okada and AJ, which probably has a lot to do with them faring the best of the three, growth-wise).

I don't have a problem with the referee asking the crowd. It's pure pantomime, which at least some styles of wrestling already owe a lot to. It sounds like you're asking for something like the public warning system in World of Sport stuff.

Re: trash cans, as Foley says in his book, there is something fundamentally satisfying to the lizard brain about seeing a guy stagger around with a trash can on his head. Actually using those awful aluminium trash cans as weapons, though... yeah that was the shits. Thankfully I don't think you see that anywhere anymore. Maybe in TNA.

Yo ugggh (flame emoji)

Since Kris brought it up on the WasimCast: why aren't CMLL guys like Dragon Lee getting more US indie bookings? I assume the answer is simply 'indie promoters aren't paying attention to what's going on in Mexico', since it took Lucha Underground for AAA guys to start getting booked. That seems like an indictment of them since you'd think they should be staying afloat of that sort of thing. I can't imagine the expense of bringing them in is such that it can't be justified.

In fairness Desperado has had pretty underwhelming showings ever since returning to NJPW, although you can probably pin some of the blame there on first being a babyface and then benig associated with Suzuki-gun and its accompanying bullshit. I think the mask hurts him too - very few guys are able to work with a mask that covers the entire face and mouth without losing something in the charisma department.

Enjoyed it much more on rewatch. They did a really good job of positioning the biggest spots so that they were big transitions rather than just one in a sequence of moves. Both guys could've sold better while on offense, but overall I did get a much better sense of escalation than I did on first viewing. Dragon Lee's indie-style selling with all the flipping and flopping around is one irksome quality of a largely really exciting and charismatic wrestler. I don't think I'd go MOTYC or even the best match in their feud (it's between this and the mask match though) but it was very good for sure.

Man, I feel like I need to watch that match again because literally EVERYONE is praising it and I just wasn't feeling it. I enjoyed all their previous matches more. It's so tedious to criticise a spotfest for being such, but it really felt very empty to me outside of the cool moves. I didn't get any sense of escalation from minute 5 to minute 15 of the third fall which is so crucial to that kind of match. They just did spots until it was time to go to the finish (which was itself underwhelming compared to what had come before).

I thought the Kotaro Suzuki/Ultimo Dragon match was pretty damn good too.

Yeah, I strongly advise everyone check out that match; I think it would be right up the alley of many people here. I only wish they had let the matwork breathe a little more rather than rushing through each hold. It's nice that they did it at all though. Man, they were sure working stiff.

The most recent Shiozaki/Miyahara vs. Akiyama/Omori match is fantastic.

Bringing up anecdotal evidence of ECW's popularity seems absurd when the objective metric of TV penetration is right there. Even at its total nadir of popularity, WCW was still doing around double the viewers ECW ever did.

Seems like the vast majority of wrestlers these days get into it because they were fans, which I think was less the case in the past. Even then, I don't think most of the guys have a particularly expansive knowledge of the wider world of wrestling. It's frustrating seeing how many bad decisions have been made throughout wrestling history because guys in positions of power were attached to their way of doing things (which is usually whatever they learned when they were coming up) because they don't have the knowledge of all the varied ways wrestling can work.

CMLL drew a nice house (maybe 10k+) tonight for LA Park/Atlantis/Volador Jr. vs. Dr Wagner Jr./La Sombra/Rush. I only caught the top two matches (missed the En Busca trios unfortunately) but everyone seemed to be energized by the big crowd and had their working boots on. I thought Rush especially really looked like he belonged in there with Park and Wagner which is a testament to his star potential. It looks like they're building to Rush/Wagner vs. Park/Volador for the Aniversario semimain while building to Rush vs. Park somewhere down the line. Hopefully they can parlay the interest Park and Wagner bring into some shine for the current crop of guys.

I don't really have anything to say about the multimans and the women's match other than to say they were fine for what they were (sloppy indyriffic clusterfucks) and I probably would have liked all of them more if they had each been like 25% shorter. Virus vs. Dr. Cerebro The work here was absolutely top class, but it felt like the first two falls of a great match that was missing a third fall. Part of the problem is that the maestros style of matwork, while often highly aesthetic, typically lacks drama. I think you need a sense of escalation and long periods of control with notable transitions to create drama in wrestling, and this style of matwork typically has neither. As far as primera matwork goes, though, it was really really great stuff. As Paul has noted before, Virus's matwork has a real physicality to it that isn't communicated well on CMLL's TV. He's also great at using subtle leverage tricks to create counters, like kicking a guys foot out from underneath him. After they stood up it was only a few minutes of good work before they went to the finish. Still a very good match, I just can't see the MOTYC. Trauma II vs. Blue Panther The trend of CMLL guys working way harder on indie shows than they do in their home promotion is practically an epidemic by now. I wonder if they're getting paid more per appearance for these shows than they get from CMLL? Panther worked the mat at a pace that I didn't know he was capable of any more - actually a little too fast, as I would have liked to see them milk each individual hold a little more. Trauma II kept up admirably, though he doesn't quite have Panther's instincts on the mat (few do) and you could see the cogs turning with regard to how he should transition into his own hold a few times. I thought the stuff after they stood up was really good, especially the finishing stretch which was pretty dramatic. A good match. Guerrero Maya vs. Guerrero Maya Jr. Man this was a great brawl. All of Terry's offense is just fantastic; he was laying into Jr. with chops, punches, kicks and headbutts. I don't know if you see this kind of violence anywhere else in wrestling these days but indie lucha and Brock Lesnar matches. I thought they escalated well from the initial matwork to brawling, although I wouldn't have complained if they had just started off with the traditional posting of the guy during his entrance and gone straight to the mask ripping and brawling. The only complaints I had were I thought Terry popped up a little fast to start his comeback, and a number of execution issues which took me out of the moment a little. These types of awkward moments seem more common in lucha than elsewhere - I wonder if it's because matches are more frequently called in the ring? Those are the only things holding this back from being a strong MOTYC. Hechicero/Ultimo Guerrero vs. Avisman/Caifan This was mostly great stuff interspersed with enough annoying moments that I can't say it was a great match. I largely enjoyed the whole macho pissing contest vibe early on, and think lucha does that style so much better than, say, modern New Japan, but Hechicero and Caifan taking turns hitting bombs on each other was almost as goofy as Ishii and Shibata sitting down and presenting their chests to be kicked in the G1 last year. The early matwork was both really good and had a real sense of urgency to it that was lacking in most of the other matwork on this show. I'm struggling to think of specific positive points to make note of here as it was just a real fun all-action workratey bout. The negatives stand out far more even though there were far fewer of them - a split-legged dropkick spot that had way too much standing around waiting to be hit, Guerrero's annoying tendency to stand around enjoying everyone cheering for him that disrupted the flow of a fast-paced match, Caifan just going into his own offense with no transition after being hit with a big move a couple times which is a huge pet peeve of mine. That botched Guerrero Especial looked like it killed Caifan, good lord. Hopefully we get another Caifan/Hechicero match out of this as those guys have good chemistry; I really enjoyed their match last year. Trauma I vs. Pagano Based on this, is it safe to say that rumors of Pagano sucking have been greatly exaggerated? Yes, the guy is sloppy, but he is also charismatic as hell, has a huge presence about him (at least in front of indie crowds like this) and has a viciousness to much of his offense. I wonder how much of the derision he receives online is as a result of working in a style that many people dislike, regardless of how well-worked the matches are. That chairshot to the back of Trauma I's head early was sick and so ill-advised on Trauma's part. The dropkick from the apron looked as great as any of Rush's. The theatrics with the fork were great. The mask-ripped guy bleeding is always a great visual, but Trauma I with his mask and contacts made for a particularly fine example. With the exception of one thing - I wish Trauma I had sold a little more immediately after the reversed whip into the chair that started his comeback - this was all just so great up until the rollup spot (seriously, rollups in a match like this? The fact that the ref was so slow to make the count didn't help), and though that took me out of it a bit they quickly got me back. Stabbing the fork into the knee to break the hold was a great idea for a spot that would've come off better if Trauma I wasn't wearing huge knee pads. Oh and I somehow almost forgot about the broken bottle usage, which I will always pop for. Just a brutal war and I hope they plan on doing this one again. Borderline MOTYC and it's between this and the Mayas match for MOTN. All of these actually came off better on rewatch than on first viewing with the exception of Panther/Trauma II (a little worse) and the Mayas match (about the same). I can kinda see the SOTYC point now, although not having to sit through that loooong 4 way trios again probably helped my perception considerably.

The brief Onita/Hamada/Pioneer talk reminds me that I'd love for someone to do a show (or series?) on the history of the Japanese indies. It's so hard to find information about Pioneer, Hamada UWF, early FMW etc without trawling through old Observers.

I watched the whole show. It was real fun, I don't know if I'd go SOTYC though. Will post more thoughts later.

Greatest athlete ever in pro wrestling? The way the guy could just go and go while working an extremely intensive style was just crazy.

After rewatching the main event I feel like, at least of the stuff I've seen, it's the best NJPW match of the Bushiroad era.

As much as I want to see AJ/Nakamura, it feels like a real waste of a year's worth of booking if nobody but AJ, Nakamura, Tanahashi and Okada is in the main and semimain at the Dome... but that seems like it could be the direction they're going right now.

I thought Nakamura/Tanahashi was an excellent match. I've been in the camp that the limb selling in these NJPW matches where the guy continues to use the limb is bad, but I think I'm evolving my position. At this point it's clearly not a product of laziness or forgetfulness, it's an intentional move that represents a different approach to limb psychology. I think of lucha and how you see guys bump off stuff that isn't bumped off in American or Japanese wrestling, how moves can finish a fall that never would in American and Japanese wrestling, and how we accept those differences because lucha has its own psychology, and as long as it's internally consistent it's fine. Is this really any different? Hell, it's accepted that guys don't sell limbs by acting like they're completely unable to use them in shoot style, so why does it always have to be done in pro style? Now if you think it's an inferior approach to psychology and can justify why then I think that's fine, but I think you have to accept that it is a different approach and not judge the matches by their failure to adhere to a psychological standard that the promotion as a whole doesn't even observe. I'm struggling to see the difference between doing that and, say, complaining about guys sitting in submissions that would be instant tapouts in lucha, or the DDT not being a devastating finishing move these days.

I'm not much of a fan of the modern style big dumb bomb-throwing turn-taking sprint that has become Ishii's bread and butter this year (I think his most praised matches last year were a little smarter) but the match with Elgin was the best one I've seen in some time, largely because Ishii sold most of the way and he's great at selling. Elgin's control segment was excessive, but for me not insufferably so, although it was perhaps dangerously close. There was a lack of tedious extended strike exchanges, and the spot with Elgin leaning into Ishii's elbows was actually great. The no-sell and one-count spots that are almost never used well made some degree of sense as Elgin had taken very little damage thus far. They didn't go too long. Can't complain too much. I do question the wisdom of having midcard guys take so much punishment and kick out of so much stuff though. If Ishii is so tough, why isn't he the best guy in the promotion? This is just part of a larger complaint I often have with NJPW that the matches aren't worked in a way that reflects the booking - too much 50/50 work between guys that are way apart on the tier list and too many epic tough-guy performances from guys that, in kayfabe, shouldn't be capable of them.