pol

Even if the point of wrestling is to make money (as if anyone can own what the point of wrestling is), that's relevant neither to this project, which is about in-ring work, nor to most people here's interests as fans.

https://www.google.com/search?q=great+performances+in+bad+movies It seems like the obvious point that nobody has touched on in these comparisons to other media (maybe because it's too obvious?) is that wrestling is a collaborative medium. That's the big reason why it can make sense to privilege input over output.

Hah, it sure sounded like that's what you were saying

The biggest booking whiff on this show was not having Snoop stop Flair from interfering. Most of the booking complaints are from the fan perspective and ultimately are going to have no impact on their business, because evidence shows that those fans will keep coming back no matter what. On the other hand a big incident involving a celebrity on the biggest stage is exactly the kind of Moment that is really central to the Vince Jr. conception of wrestling. It would've gotten them a bunch of media attention. Weird that they whiffed on it, because if nothing else this is the kind of thing that Vince still tends to be very good at.

This show really felt like the ultimate realisation of Vince's vision for pro wrestling. The culmination of over 30 years of work. A procession of polished, pre-packaged WrestleMania Moments in front of a giant crowd.

So is it just me who never really got 'effeminate' from Nakamura's mannerisms?

Ahhh I assumed it would've been on the NOAH site. Thanks.

I think I'm generally more interested in craft than art. I like house and techno music, which offer highly restrictive templates for composition mandated by the pragmatic demands of the dancefloor and DJ. There's two things that make them interesting/enjoyable: how effectively the artist can exploit this limited framework to elicit the desired audience response, and what creative touches they can add within the confines of the style. Hell, I think the same is really true of popular music as a whole. I see wrestling much the same way. I think wrestlers executing the shine/heat/comeback formula to perfection, while working whatever little spins and touches they can into the overall structure, is generally far more interesting than throwing out the formula altogether. While I'm not opposed to more 'out' takes on structure, I think the majority of wrestlers (at least modern ones) are tasteless and self-indulgent when the reins are taken off, so you're more likely to end up with Yngwie Malmsteen than Derek Bailey. That said, there are limits to how restrictive I think you can make the structure before it really does become tedious. The majority of modern New Japan matches for example, where it's the same big spots and near falls in the same order, followed by the same finish every time have gotten incredibly dull to me. You still have to provide some level of excitement and unpredictability within the structure.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story. I guess a general ramping up of drama/intensity would be as close as it gets to that. I feel the same way about lucha to a lesser extent.

I suspect a lot of the music you're hearing is overdubs for the comm tape releases. It is awesome though. The presentation of RINGS was even more fighting gamey, right down to the "Vs." screens with Tekken-esque announcer before each fight.

Is the Momota match online?

Jingus's post is an interesting point. I think you could argue that Akiyama, more than any of the other AJPW guys, really thrived in NOAH with its less dry, more traditionally "pro wrestling"-y booking and character work. He came into his own as the dick faction leader in the Burning vs. Sternness feud (incidentally, if someone wants to make a list of the best Burning vs. Sterness multimans that would be cool). That story also makes me think of another display of Akiyama thinking on his feet I mentioned on Twitter recently: upon seeing Makoto Hashi and Ricky Marvin blow a spot, Akiyama comes in and stomps the shit out of Marvin, then goes after HASHI (who he had a kinda comedic father/son-esque relationship with) and starts stomping him too, before dragging him to the corner to tag himself in. Pretty much saves the match in the process. Would be interesting if there's many other examples of that kind of adapting on the fly.

No Misawa/Ogawa team seems like an oversight to me. Maybe not the best Misawa team but perhaps my favorite, and the one that most felt like a 'real tag team' for whatever that's worth.

Greatest rookie punishment match worker on both sides of the formula?

I'm not a huge fan of the Kawada/Misawa Dome match, and I also haven't seen it in a while so hopefully I'm not way off on this, but from what I remember the whole match is structured around Kawada understanding the deadliness of the Misawa comeback and trying his damnedest to cut it off at every opportunity. I don't think Misawa ever truly gets an extended comeback, which is what enables Kawada to win. Contrast that with the vast majority of matches ever, where the babyface is getting their comeback in regardless of if the heel is going over or not. Touches like that show that these guys were thinking about match structure/narrative on a higher level than pretty much anyone else in history, I think.

Re: modern wrestling, I think there's a few non-NJPW Japanese promotions that would not offend Parv's sensibilities as far as style and presentation goes. Particularly Akiyama's AJPW and the BJW heavyweight stuff. Whether he'd think the wrestling is any good is another issue, but there is at least still wrestling out there with a sincere, serious presentation and fanbase.

What did Wade say?

Yeah, early NOAH has a lot of fun stuff (I should know since I'm working my way through it right now), but way less superlative stuff. A lot of the fun for me is seeing the All Japan guys transported out of that ultra-dry environment and into something with more flash and more creative, less Pure Sports-style booking. It's pretty jarring at first to see, for example, Akiyama playing a much more classic pro wrestling heel than you would've ever seen in 90s All Japan.

I'd be interested to know if any other riots portrayed as the fans being worked into a frenzy were actually people being pissed off with the booking like that one was.

I'd be interested in hearing you guys take on NOAH stuff. The level of quality isn't as consistently high, but that's offset by there being a wider variety of guys in the mix. Would be cool to hear your thoughts on guys like Honda, Takayama, main eventer Ogawa, heel Akiyama as champion, etc...

I definitely get the impression that he could still be having great matches if positioned to do so. I remember Ogawa/ZSJ vs. Masamune/Taiji Ishimori from last year being a ***1/2-3/4 deal

This was the best the Drifter has looked so far. The gimmick is the absolute shits though. Keep the name if you must, but lose the guitar and get some wrestling gear.

Something I noticed after rewatching 1/20/97: for a 40+ minute match in a promotion known for epic stretch runs, there's really a small number of true near-falls (in the sense of "we're really trying to convince you this could be the finish"). Misawa's elbow to Kobashi's lariat arm, followed by them both collapsing selling their respective limbs, is an all-time great moment. The Frankensteiner off the apron is a great transition too. Just incredible transitions all over the place in this match. I had issues with Misawa kinda forgetting the elbow selling towards the end in the past, but I didn't this time, as it seemed clear that the story is Misawa slowly recovering the use of his greatest weapon in order to put Kobashi away. After the extended assault on Misawa's arm following the elbow to the guard rail, Kobashi never really works the arm again. His strategy falls apart as he becomes more focused on simply staying in the match. In fact I don't think he gets another extended section of control after that point. So it makes sense for Misawa to slowly regain the use of the elbow. My biggest issue with the match is the 15 minutes before the elbow to the guard rail spot. It's 15 minutes of good, engaging work, but it really doesn't mean anything at all in the broader scope of the match. I think they could have cut that section in half without really losing anything.

I think that's a silly point. I agree with Wade on the substance of the argument, but it gets incredibly tedious hearing about it so much.

They were worked from 2012-2015 too.