Goodear

Really? I would have thought your diminishing returns argument for Brock would have fit Angle exceptionally well considering his propensity to up his use of suplexes per matches, blowing out his own finishers and 'give someone the push by letting them out wrestle the Olympian' when everyone did it. I see Brock now as an evolution of Angle tropes blown up to eleven right now. I voted for Brock due to his run prior to the UFC before Grimmas outs me again.

We can just find and replace on Brock Lesnar if we have to.

I think the Dean Malenko discussion is derailed by the argument being that he is boring and started the roll up fest thing (which could probably be traced back to Ricky Steamboat originally more accurately). I think blaming Malenko with the popularization of the cliche on the indies is like blaming Misawa for strike exchanges that go nowhere. They shouldn't be held responsible for dumb things that came after that were attempted by less talented people who didn't understand the reason why it was happening. I've also never had the issue with the Iceman character that people took to be wrestling in a vacuum as it was his gimmick to be emotionless. He would then smartly get more out of firing up as a face on Jericho or eventually showing frustration as a heel. It was an event to see him break one way or the other. To me, it was taking a weakness and covering it up to make it a strength.

You're not my dad! You're not my dad In the interest of full disclosure I attempt to watch stuff that I am actually going to like and I am incredibly cheap. As such, PPV main events that are one of the last things I watch so I tend to stay away from 30 minute Triple H 'epics' against guys like Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash or Undertaker (I also have never seen the Daniel Bryan match so it runs both ways). While this does leave an incomplete picture of a worker, the very nature of the project meant that would be true of virtually every wrestler ever because there are only so many hours in the day. So I put a lot more emphasis on week-to-week stuff than big events. In this regard, I assume that Triple H does better with commercial breaks and shorter amount of time.because I have never had the visceral reaction to him that others do. From that perspective, I find him to be a rather solid TV worker who was able to effectively give guys enough of a hope window before slamming it down on their heads. From a character perspective, I find the Max Landis view of him as being a self important schmuck who builds up his own self confidence so he can talk the talk without walking the walk to have merit as his character arc. I also found the Connecticut Blue blood gimmick to be an effective character for him with the Hog Pen match to actually being the highlight of that run as being surprisingly violent and satisfying. HIs IC Title run with the Rock worked for me as well and I enjoyed face D-X with X-Pac and the Outlaws as a grouping. I mean I realize he has flaws but so does everyone else including the people I ranked much higher and some people that are still coming on the countdown are actively worse by far.

Matt Hardy is getting a lot of love for a guy who couldn't bend his knees.

So just watched a couple of Yatsu matches to see if he lived up to Parv's hype. Meh.

I would agree with Matt, in the land of WWE where everyone has a six pack being a 'slob' in shorts and a shirt makes Owen stand out. This isn't a roster full of types like that.

Hey! There are still women above him. He could be like 150 or so.

I get the stunt show thing. I don't get how checking his footing is where you draw the line.

The reverse X-factor thing was dumb sure, I'm not sure I would say its super indy since I don't think anyone else ever did the thing. Because it was dumb. It's not like a Superplex into a Falcon Arrow into a counter into a Davey Richards or anything though. I'm also not sure how checking his footing to make sure Jeff Hardy doesn't fall on his head is 'not trying to win a match'?

Just absolutely HATE the setting up for the stunt stuff. The worst. Hate it, hate it. Yes but Jeff might have been the very best at the setting up stunt stuff nonsense. I liked his stuff with Undertaker, RVD and Randy Orton as a single before his body went to hell, his brain went on drugs and his soul went to TNA.

Jeff had a good ability to tie into his audience and was incredibly authentic as a dirt bike jumping, poetry writing, face painting drug addict. No one else could have pulled that shit off and still been over. For as tripped out as he was, I totally bought that Jeff would walk into the grocery store and be exactly the thing you saw on television.

Christ okay, you pedants.

See the Steiner Screwdriver / Burning Hammer question for Dangerous Alliance wasn't so dumb after all.

Eventually all are doomed. My list of 80s WWF midcarders isn't exactly living high on the hog. WIll's Memphis soldiers are all in their graves other than Jerry. I can't see any one grouping to be super highly represented.

Bossman lives on? !!!! Super excited.

How Dirty White Boy didn't end up your final ballot, I cannot say. I mean you said you forgot him but he seems like such a 'Will wrestler'.

I think I'm going to deep dive into Parv's list of Kobashi matches for giggles as I get the chance. I should finish around never.

Alberto is one of those guys I have zero emotional attachment to despite being able to recognize he has physical tools and some intangibles. To me, he's a guy who requires a heavy push to be over and if he isn't, he fades into the woodwork pretty heavy.

I second this.... Let's ask our mutual friend and confidant. Ric? What are your... thoughts? I kid. Because I love I mean we've certainly seen people with good tools who with the test of time, demonstrated they weren't deep thinkers like Kurt Angle or RVD. One could suggest that Kobashi was led around by the 3 other pillars for so long he was bound to produce good matches even if he wasn't calling them. But I think that's reductive and an overly simplistic view. He did stuff because he got a reaction sometimes, I don't think that's dumb.

And being a 14 year old?

When I was watching a bunch of Kobashi during the DVDVR Remedial Wrestling project I tended to find his matches would reach a natural peak and then keep going for a while afterwards. I think Bret had better pacing in that regard that even though he would got to pinning combinations for his endings, they seemed stylistically fitting for his character as the chess master. Kobashi to me seemed like he would throw things at the wall and if that moonsault worked this time, then yay! Oh it didn't? Lariat! Yay! I didn't appreciate his match construction as well as Bret's.

But did Espectrito drop an elbow like Tenta? No sir. I have no idea. I'm having a laugh.

I'm not a Kobashi expert by any stretch so I don't want to go down that line although I would be happy to go through some of Bret's... In no particular order... vs. Roddy Piper at Wrestlemania countering the sleeper vs. Steve Austin at Survivor Series countering the Million Dollar Dream in a call back vs. Steve Austin at Wrestlemania Sharpshooter stoppage (which wouldn't work if you put Sting or the Rock in there because their versions of the hold stink) vs. Davey Boy Smith Summerslam being countered during a sunset flip vs. Bam Bam Bigelow King of the Ring victory roll vs. Owen Hart Wrestlemania countering the victory roll vs. Diesel Royal Rumble small package finish to counter the powerbomb vs. Curt Hennig IC Title win countering legdrop into the Sharpshooter vs. The Quebeckers stoppage when couldn't stand attempting the Sharpshooter vs. Jerry Lawler getting DQ'ed for not releasing the sharpshooter vs. Davey Boy Smith at In Your House, La Magistral cradle vs. Bob Backlund - Helen Hart 'throws in the towel' via crossface chickenwing I mean I did that off the top of my head? That seems pretty varied to me while still holding to the technician gimmick.