club

My main issue with Jumbo is that with the exception of some of the Misawa feud, in every big match of his I'm more interested in the other guy. Robinson, Bock, Tenryu, Martel, Funk, Choshu, etc. There's no question in my mind that he's not excellent in the ring, and he brings out the quality of others. But I struggle to connect with him on an emotional level, which is for me what wrestling is really all about.

Re-assessing people like Martel is one of the facets of this project I love the most. Arrogance spraying heel Martel was a fixture of my childhood and based on that run I wouldn't have considered him whatsoever. The pre-Model Martel on the other hand is one of the best wrestlers of the mid-80s. A fairly basic style done really well, he's brilliant at getting over the dynamics of the match. Really appreciate that he doesn't seem to rely on routine spots too much. His matches feel organic.

Dynamite will likely make the back half of my list somewhere. Matches with Jones, Breaks, Rocco, Hara, Fujinami, Rose and Dennison are all great. The Tiger Mask stuff not so much. WWF not so much. Japan and Portland I'm looking forward to.

Elliot, thanks for all the above. Love me some Tommy Rich. There’s this weird sincerity to him, Randy Savage-like in that that he’s absurd yet believable. And like Savage, more often than not he’s this captivating presence that gives great performances, even when the matches aren’t. Also, not sure how intentional it is on his part, but I get a real sense of pathos in Tommy Rich as this guy who made it to the top then spent his career never really coming close to making it to that level again. This comp is awesome as well: Tommy Rich's Blood Battles of the South https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6rTNLFplrk

SUWA I’m not much for Toryumon or 00s NOAH juniors, but I could watch this dickhead stomp and punch all day long, and it’s a crying shame he didn’t have a longer career. I’d really like to take a look into his Toryumon stuff - hoping people here better versed in it can signpost me to the good stuff. Dragon Kid vs SUWA - 24/08/00 KENTA vs SUWA - 09/18/05 SUWA vs Mitsuo Momota - 07/16/06 Mil Mascaras, Ultimo Dragon, Kazuchika Okada & Marco Corleone vs Ultimo Guererro, SUWA, Yoshihiro Takayama & Minoru Suzuki - 05/13/07

I bloody love Victor Zangiev. He seemingly 'got' pro wrestling straight off the bat in a way none of the other Soviets of the era did. It was a shame he wasn't the featured guy instead of Hashimikov as he was far and away the more engaging worker. Would recommend Riki Choshu & Tatsumi Fujinami vs Victor Zangiev & Vladimir Berkovich from May 25 1989 and his Buzz Sawyer Tokyo Dome match.

I rewatched Jag vs Mimi Hagiwara from Jan 1984. It's a great match full stop (that crowd!), but there were moments where Yokota's selling really stood out on this watch. Mimi hits that spinning flying mare thing you see a lot in this era, and Jag comes up holding her nose. And she sells it like she's been hit in the nose as opposed to the head. Not stunned, just thrown off her rhythm. Then she takes another and sells her forehead and stays down long enough for Mimi to hit a suplex. Not thrown off her rhythm this time but stunned. Later she takes a slingshot. The norm would be to sell it as a generic 'stun'. Instead she sells her right knee. It's these little things that keep the match grounded in something relatable.

Jag's a top 20 lock for me. John Cooper Clarke had a line about seeing Ramones play for the first time: 'They made everyone else look like they weren't trying.' This is kinda how I feel about Jaguar Yokota in the 80s. She's on another level to everyone else as far as intensity, work, movement.

Is there anything else from 80s New Japan worth seeking out? I've really been enjoying his SWS era stuff recently. Mad how he switches styles depending on the opponent. He has a varied resume and a fascinating career, but the majority of what I enjoy about Sano is his shoot-style stuff, whether SWS, UWFi or Kingdom.

My favourite jobber ever. He's a highlight of UWFi along with Tamura and Anjo. Would recommend his matches with Anjo, Yamazaki, Kanehara, Miyato and Tenryu.

This is worth 24 minutes of your time:

I’ve been watching a lot of Tenryu’s stuff in between All Japan runs (so the 90s basically) and what's really struck me is his adaptability. He matches up well with just about anyone. He’s able to vary his style depending on the style and status of his opponent whilst remaining ‘authentic Tenryu’. Gnarly tags aside, he has good to great singles matches with Ashura Hara, George Takano, Tatsumi Fujinami, Nobutaka Araya, Hayabusa, Kensuke Sasaki, Tatsuo Nakano, Great Muta, Yoji Anjo, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Randy Savage, Koji Kitao, Nobuhiko Takada, Keiji Muto and Atsushi Onita.

Is that the one where they stare at each other for 30 mins? I'd need to rewatch it but yeah from what I remember he was better than Go. I also recall a tag match at Ryogoku with BJW guys and Suwama with a lot of staring. Is this a thing with him? TBF my impressions of Fujita are almost entirely based on his NJPW stuff from two decades ago. I haven't kept up on NOAH. The best Fujita matches from that era had a 'how to slay the beast?' narrative. Tanahashi, Shibata, Chono. Great matches largely dependent on the opponent.

Fujita vs Tatsutoshi Goto from the 2005 G1 is well worth the time. Generally not a guy I'd consider though. He's been in some great matches but it's down to the other guy to create something compelling.

Wanted to highlight another Breaks/Saint match that aired on Sky in 1986. An excellent Breaks performance on a weirdly entertaining wrestling show. Starts at 1:00:30 He's a top 10 guy for me.

Reading this thread, Muto seems as divisive as ever. I love the guy. Bad first - there are plenty letdowns, particularly in the late 90s. Right then with that out the way, as a mega charismatic dude working within his limits, knowing when to hit his big spots and mugging it up he's S-tier. I’d rate his greatest hits very very highly. Some great matches in the 90s, some great spectacles as Muta, and his 00s reinvention was fabulous. He really understood his physical limitations and was able to build around them and let his star presence shine through. A match that never gets much pro-wrestling love (pun intended) is his 2007 TC match vs Minoru Suzuki. It's on GAORA's YT channel now. Well worth the time.

Love the matches with Breaks, Grey and Finaly mentioned above. Saint really does turn it up when it comes to the big matches. I enjoy the contrast between these and some of the lesser matches that he appears to treat more as affable sparring. Like he's playing a friend at snooker, or 5-a-side. He's amazing when it comes to first time viewing but I'd agree that he gets a bit same-y over the long haul. As someone to watch once every few months though he's a lot of fun. Which seems reasonable given that's how often his matches were shown on TV back then. What that means for a project like this I do not know. His Dec 72 tag with Steve Best vs Ian Gilmour & Jeff Kaye is up on YouTube now and is well worth a look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT2liJ_iYkI Got a kick out of their team being called The Elite.

I’ve been dipping into less celebrated WoS guys recently and Roach comes across as an excellent big man. I just finished watching a match of his against Johnny Kincaid (also awesome), and Roach’s selling of pain was amazing. Edit - also in the 88 match with Caswell Martin, his selling of being stuck in a painful submission was great. Just this pained 'no, no, no-no-no-no-no'. Really helped along the narrative of the match.

I didn't submit a ballot in 2016, but if I had Shinsuke would have been on it. Thought he was second only to Tanahashi in terms of New Japan guys during their 2010s glory years. Given that I've a) soured a fair bit on New Japan and b) not watched WWE properly in about a decade, I've no idea what to do with at the moment. What are people's thoughts on him this time round?

Ozaki is such a versatile charismatic performer. She’s at home working as a sympathetic underdog or as a psychotic brawler. When I look at my favourite Ozaki singles matches (vs Super Hell Devil Masami, Hokuto, Dynamite Kansai) there is real effective variety to her performances. She’s also the worker that consistently stands out on the big interpromotional tags of the era, stuff like the Dead Heat 4vs4, Thunder Queen and her tag with Cuty vs Double Inoues at Dream Slam. Can’t not see Oz in my list.

Johnny Kincaid Starts off (at least in terms of footage) as a versatile WoS babyface who could work technical matches and get rough when required. Found his true calling sometime in 1977 when he became an heel. His tag team with Dave Bond, The Caribbean Sunshine Boys, caused such heat that they were disbanded, and sadly leave us with but one televised match. He has some great singles performances from this era however. His heel offence is basic and his heel antics - strut, choke, devious inward smile - are nothing you haven’t seen before. It’s just that it so well executed that his matches are never not fun and are often a joy to watch. His match with Tony St Clair is a wonderful synthesis of his strengths as a performer. My main concern with nominating him is that seemingly few matches made tape. Hopefully this is not the case. Recommended matches: vs. Peter Rann - 22nd March 1972 w/Dave Bond vs. Kung Fu & Pete Roberts - 8th October 1977 vs. Tony St Clair - 18th February 1978

Been delving to the French stuff recently. Leduc is my guy and I can see him landing on my list. Like Jetlag said, he's a very effective technical babyface who takes no nonsense and can slug it out when necessary. So basically all bases covered when it comes to this stuff. He puts me in mind of someone like Marty Jones or Bret Hart. Everything he does looks so good. It has a weight behind it that keeps it believable within the style. He meshes well with a variety of guys, though I haven't seen much of most his opponents outside Leduc matches. I really look forward to seeing more of his 60s work. As well as the matches mentioned, I'd recommend: Quasimodo 59 w. Batman vs Blousons Noirs 67 Der Henker 71

I’d say for me it more comes down to enjoying one style over another. I suppose in the Thesz era the challenge was to produce something that fans could accept as legit whilst also being entertaining, whereas later on there wasn’t that constraint and so there was a wider scope for doing entertaining stuff. But having that wider scope doesn’t mean it’s always going to entertain.

I've spent some of my New Years day watching Rikidozan matches with my mother-in-law, who lived through the era. We watched Kimura, Ortega and the Thesz count-out. He's a charismatic, kind, mega-babyface. Work-wise he's basic but does exactly what he needs to do for his crowd: standing tall taking no shit from anyone, Lou Thesz be damned. Looking at what he accomplished it's hard to fault him. In terms of a project like this though, he's more interesting from an anthropological perspective than an in-ring one.

I cosign all the above. These threads have been an amazing resource.