Slasher

Well that is why I used the term "accidentally", of course there was no real intention to start something for Ziggler off that match. He was immediately shuffled right back down the card and the accomplishment was pretty much nullified with Rollins bullying Cena into restoring the Authority back in their position. And they pretty much made it look like Ziggler only won because Sting got involved. This is evident when Triple H pretty much brushed Ziggler off and went after Sting instead. But for so long the fans supported Ziggler even with how they have booked him but nowadays they've gotten tired of it and now they are looking for other guys who might, just might, reward their interest with a decent push for the guy. Wins and losses only matter when it comes to begrudgingly accepting Triple H as a WWE legend and icon pretty much solely because he keeps booking himself to be the King of Kings and very rarely ever losing in his career as an active wrestler or when it comes to desperately wanting to see a guy like Daniel Bryan be pushed at the level they think he deserved to be and utterly rejecting all the company's attempts to have him be ultimately a loser.

The way they have built Brock/Ambrose with Ambrose needing weapons to keep Brock at bay it is kind of like the talent level disparity is as bad as the disparity between Taker and Shane.

I think that is the wrong way to look at the comparison. Ric Flair enjoyed so many different benefits for working in the era he did. He also had a strong group of supporters in powerful positions that he was always looked as a guy they could trust being the touring champion and coming into territories as a big deal and thus had more opportunities to work with the best that territory had to offer. He also had two different rivals that helped him get even more over with the fans (Rhodes abd Steamboat). He was given an opportunity to lead a stable with great workers involved. He was quickly designated by WCW as their man and their anchor on a national level. Daniel Bryan has never really come close to being given the same opportunities. The WWE for a long time didn't think he had the right look for their world champion. Before his foray into WWE he just had nowhere else to go that comparea to WCCW or AWA or Mid South or Florida or Carolinas etc. Today's wrestlers are guys who really loved wrestling and was willing to shell out cash for a training and the best of that lot got to go on making a career out of it. Athleticism means nothing nowadays nor does having that innate understanding of how it works and how to get over with manipulation. So Daniel Bryan was always wrestling guys that Flair fans would classify as broomsticks and yet he made it work. It isn't coincidence that the very first hint the fans got from the WWE that Bryan is a major part of their future, fans started hijacking shows to force the company to stick with him rather than letting them move on past him to other wrestlers they wanted to push. He is injured pretty immediately after he had his Austin Mania 14 moment, barely got back on track and then forced to retire. I am confident that if he never retired and had opportunities to put in another 15 years of work in, he would have been widely considered GOAT over even Flair. That's pretty obvious for me to see. So no Flair doesn't get extra pats on his back because Bryan had to retire.

I doubt the bat would really factor in the match. I am thinking it's significance will be that Brock somehow gets possession of the bat and it'd truly be game over for Ambrose. Brock's a tough guy but I can't envision him being willing to get whacked around with that bat. Ambrose, back in his days in the indies as Jon Moxley, has already had a decent amount of experience in garbage wrestling and he is more likely to receive the ass whooping with it. Either so they can put over Ambrose as a guy who came close to beating Brock and the weapon just happened to be his downfall or they will use it to kind of put a damper on his push being a guy who once again failed for taking yet another unnecessary risk and paid the price for it (much like the exploding television and the hologram causing him to lose).

Wait...is this so surprising? They have spent years (YEARS) booking Ziggler as if he doesn't matter and he's proof wins and losses matter? Err...no. Ziggler is being presented as a jobber and the fans have been beaten down to the point they gave up on Ziggler and they don't expect anything for him anymore. Look at someone like Mick Foley. He jobbed all the time but the difference was he was being presented as a guy who was important and was a potential game changer for them. He was a crazy son of a bitch who would kill himself if it meant an opportunity to kill his opponent at the same time. Main eventers like Taker, Rock, Austin and even Triple H acted like guys who believed Foley could beat them in the right circumstances and it was up to them being at the top of their game if they had any hopes of winning. What about Dean Ambrose? Name one feud that he's ever won. You'd have to go back to a tv program that didn't matter or back to when he was in the Shield beating Evolution. But Ambrose is being booked as a guy who's always an inch short of winning any matches and feuds. The WWE treats Ambrose like a guy who matters for the most part. He has been able to stay over as a result (and his personality helps). The only time they accidentally booked Ziggler to look good (Survivor Series 2014) the fans were ready to see him run with the ball. So its not wins or losses mattering, it's just presentation that matters.

Maybe they intend to be as literal as possible and have Ambrose and Brock brawling in the streets of Dallas. I do believe that if they really want to get Ambrose over (doubtful if they are really all in on Reigns) then they could have someone be the Goldberg to Ambrose's Eddie Guerrero where they booked it so Ambrose gets to win and looks good for it and Brock isn't weakened because it took Bill F'N Goldberg spearing him to lead to the finish and people forgot about Goldberg quickly enough.

This is one of the rare times where not ending the show with the title match makes sense. Shane vs Taker is practically for the company...that is more of higher stakes than a title. If Shane is scheduled to win then it would be awkward for him to win then Triple H, a guy who would be negatively impacted by Shane and pretending everything is alright with the Authority and himself. If Shane loses then either Triple H completes a sweep of Authority victories to end the show or have the guy no one could really get behind in Reigns winning and closing the show in a really bad consolation prize for the fans who realizes that the Authority isn't going away. Ending the show with Shane/Taker gives them the ability to create total chaos for the finish to distract the fans from realizing it was not an outcome they want to see (Shane the non wrestler beating a Mania legend or the Authority winning once again).

He gets asked stuff maybe 100 times a day for like 30 years straight. I'm surprised he remained diplomatic this long. Don't have a problem with him washing his hands of stupid questions nowadays.

I actually think the damage is done already with Reigns. I don't think there is anything that would get Reigns cheered anymore at this point. The fans have already decided what to do about him. So we're either in for another Cena type deal where he puts out so many good matches and feuds that the fans begrudgingly accepts him after years of trying to rebel against him or they are going to have to change how they present Reigns (ie. turning him heel). The ship has sailed for him after they did the Royal Rumble thing with him leaving for a breather. That effectively killed him for good IMO.

Losing because of a hologram and losing because of a television set didn't do him a favor with the fans either. Also he wasn't allowed to beat Rollins in any meaningful way when they revisited their feud the following year. I can't even remember the last time Ambrose actually got out of his feuds a winner. Probably when he was part of the Shield and they kicked Evolution's asses. This was 2 years ago. Not a good way to push him at all.

They would most likely have had a guy stand by in the production truck who is either linked up to Vince or whoever was running the gorilla position that night that would tell the production guys to cue in HBK's music but I don't think it was a situation that required much of advance knowledge of what would happen. They probably had both Bret's and Shawn's music ready to go either way. Someone's music was gonna play no matter what happened.

Oops. Missed that sentence. My bad.

Sami zayn was booked, for the majority of his NXT run, as an underdog who couldn't win when it mattered. That was part of the whole build to his title match with Neville. The same Neville who could be booked to lose to Stardust. If Zayn is presented that way on the developmental brand, why would it be any surprise they would have him struggle with a former titleholder on the main roster like Stardust regardless of how Stardust is treated otherwise? They are known to try to reset the call ups's storylines when they moved up. Look at how they booked Bo Dallas without understanding that context meant everything in his storyline. They just assumed people would know his backstory and just jumped ahead to him being the deluded loser without anything to explain why. I would not be surprised if they think Zayn can get over with the major roster audience doing the underdog gimmick and recycling his storylines again. That would be their dream even, being able to book Zayn and capitalizing on his popularity without having to worry about him needing to look relatively strong. Redman, I am not disputing the Angle thing you brought up but it isn't his fault people just wouldn't boo him vs Cena. It doesn't mean he wasn't interested in being a heel. Quite the opposite actually which is he tried too hard to be a heel that it just didn't work. Doesn't mean Angle purposefully sabotaged their plans by being too cool to be hated. Angle actually loves being a heel, hell when he returned from his injury on Smackdown in 2003 he actually implored the fans to chant "You suck!" at him even though he was obviously meant to be a returning babyface hero. Yes he asked in a tongue in cheek way but it made it obvious to me he prefers being a heel.

makes me think Undertaker The same Undertaker who forced Vince to apologize to Bret after the match? No. Shawn Michaels? Like Triple H, Dave is comfortable reporting negative stuff about him in the past so I wouldn't think it's him. Everyone knew Shawn was involved so what more was there for Dave to protect? People wouldn't be going "Well I thought Shawn was just the guy they screwed Bret witb but now he admitted to be part of the planning proceas, I can't look at HBK the same way anymore!" His involvement was obvious and it really wouldn't have mattered the level of his involvement. I would think Dave knows that too so there was nothing to protect HBK from people's perception of him. Jim Cornette's dwindling booking role wouldn't have mattered either. He was a guy Vince understands to be a smart man and his input was probably solicited in the first place. All I am suggesting if it was him that he came up with the way to do it, his backstage stroke doesn't have to play a part in it. Why would JR work the fans into thinking he hated the IWC? It makes no sense whatsoever. He was the play by play announcer who was the babyface anchor of their announcing team. What purpose does a babyface announcer ripping a portion of their fanbase serve? There is a thread here that focuses on him being a cranky grouchy guy. Pretty sure his deal is authentic and not a work. But anyways I apologize for inadvertently turning this into another Montreal thread. All I meant is that there are guys Dave would protect by not outing them for their involvement in a major negative situations. And maybe the source who told Dave about the Shane thing is another one of those guys Dave protects from being found out. He knows part of the game is cultivating sources that would trust Dave to not fuck them over, so they could continue being valuable assets for Dave when he needs it.

It very well could have been JR but I doubt it only because Ross doesn't strike me as a guy swearing Dave to secrecy and revealing that stuff. Ross is very bitterly anti-IWC so If he was involved I don't think he'd tell Dave about it. Patterson and Cornette has reputations of smart wrestling minds who routinely comes up with good ideas and they'd be the type of guys who Vince would go to for ideas how to make it all work with the least possibility of blowing up in their faces. They are guys that probably knows the history very well that they could come up with stuff built on the older days where stuff like a screwjob was a more common practice to get out of bad situations with guys who don't cooperate with the plan of the booker.

Kurt refused to play heel? Are you joking? This is the guy who cut an anti-American military promo and aligned with Daivari post Hassan. It isn't his fault the crowd just plainly refused to boo him over Cena.

Obviously Swagger thought Canada was just another state in America.

Actually I always thought either Pat Patterson or Jim Cornette helped flesh out how to do the screwjob. I thought Triple H's role in that was him telling Michaels under no circumstances should Shawn lose to Bret when Vince was initially amenable to Bret, working out a finish that worked for everyone. Dave had no problems criticizing Triple H for his backstage antics. He wouldn't fit Dave's mysterious comment about how the guy is someone that Dave had a lot of respect for and therefore he will only out that person when he's no longer involved or when he passes away, whichever came first. I could be wrong.

Didn't Austin turn down an offer to be part of Wrestlemania? In storyline canon, Austin has no reason to want Shane to win. If you base this off him having an iconic feud, Austin had problems with Shane too. He is the character that would have the least amount of motivation to do that. One of his catchphrases is Don't Trust Anyone...well he sure as hell wouldn't trust Shane as far as he can throw him. Besides they have two legends involved already (Taker and Foley). Adding Austin is just too much.

I don't think this is a program that is meant to "build up" AJ Styles. It's not like Styles could leverage this into a decade long run at the top like a young guy might. I think it is a feud that is meant for AJ to have a significant role at Wrestlemania and maybe Styles asked for Jericho or maybe the company asked Jericho to make it happen because they trust him with this kind of angle/feud. So I don't think we are supposed to go "Whoa AJ just beat Jericho! He'll be a star now!" I think we are supposed to say right now "Aj vs Jericho? This should be fun and interesting..." It's a fanservice program. No difference from that and Benoit vs Angle at Wrestlemania wrestling because...they wanted to wrestle.

It is a major story...one that could get people fired for leaking to Dave. It could be a situation where the source would very easily be found out by the WWE because that person is the only person there that doesn't have the last name of McMahon. I wouldn't be too eager to rush to criticize Dave here for the possibility he is holding back a major story. Dave has proven over the years with sources he had a great deal of respect that he knows it is a story but will only go so far in breaking the news out of either not wanting to lose a relationship with the source or just generally not wanting to fuck over Shane McMahon for some reason. I mean we all know Dave knows who came up with the Montreal Screwjob idea but he has not...to date...revealed who it was. This story has a similar kind of gravity to it that it might be more worthwhile for him to protect it.

I think Shane also had the idea to either buy one of the MMA organizations or create a new one back when UFC was in the early stages of its rise in the 2000s. Although I can completely understand why Vince or the WWE thought it would have been a bad idea to do that.

Only if Shane advertises his boss showing up on TV in a dark robe who pulled his hood back revealing himself to be Ted, "It was me Vince! It was me all along!"

Nah. Vince's ego would make it that Shane or whoever else wanted the company from him is going to have to pay the equivalent of what the entire company is valued at...not just his shares of it but the whole thing. This includes the value of their properties in Connecticut and Florida and wherever else plus the value of their television contract and whatever else Vince can think of. He isn't going to make it easy for anybody to buy it, and if someone actually did, Vince would only drive it further up. He's not sellibg anything that's not listed in the Shopzone section of the website. The ECW definitely happened and yes Shane had feelings hurt over Vince listening to his sister over him about all of it but that doesn't sound ruthless as implied here. So this is why I leaped to that thought process but yeah could very well just have been that all along.

It would make Vince look weaker if his kids are scheming against him and regardless of whether it succeeded or failed, would show that there are doubts in his ability to continue to lead. I wouldn't be surprised if Vince wanted the story killed off as well. Again it is just my guess but it would explain a lot about what has happened since then. They even made a storyline out of it with Triple H and I do not think it's something they would have come up with out of the blue. It always felt to me like it was a reactionary thing after a real life situation.