elliott

What are your thoughts in general about considering the more active managers? I mentioned it earlier as something I want to think about. Cornette was adding a lot to those Midnight Express matches that got Bobby Eaton such a high ranking in 2016.

Loss, how do you feel about Bobby Heenan as a candidate? He's someone I didn't really take seriously as a candidate in 2016, but the more I think about it the more I think he probably belongs. Its not like he didn't have matches. He was as good as what he did as anyone else in the business at his peak. Even when he was past his peak he was incredible performer.

Yeah I'll be happy to highlight specific wrestlers, matches, shows, whatever you need to take a look at once the process really starts.

I thought more about this and honestly I think Nakano is the best person to use as your central figure. First, Kandori is awesome. I don't mean to discourage watching her. She'll absolutely be on my list and place well. Watch every Kandori match. But I'm not sure she's the right choice to examine Joshi from a relatively limited starting point. Kandori only worked for All Japan Women as an outsider. So unless you're deep diving strictly on early JWP and LLPW (under the radar promotions without many fellow strong top 100 candidates), you're mostly going to see Kandori in an interpromotional match setting. I know you want to see wrestlers in a variety of settings. Kandori kind of limits you there. If you're watching Kandori in a match with a fellow top 100 candidate, its going to be an interpromotional big match setting. You're not going to get a "small" match. In addition to being one of the two or three best Joshi workers ever, Nakano is the bridge from the peak 80s Crush Girls era to the mid 90s Interpromotional Era. If you use Bull as the your hub, you'll get to see every single Joshi candidate from the two peak periods. Kandori is a little more limiting. Bull is also a good control figure to measure the early 90s AJW stars. People like Aja, Yamada, Toyota, Kyoko are still young and finding themselves as workers. Whereas by 1990 Bull was at her peak as the best in the world who consistently delivered. Again I don't mean suggest you shouldn't watch Kandori. Watch the hell out of Kandori. But being a bit familiar with your process and what you're looking for, I think Bull is the easiest vessel to get you where you need to go if you want to take a look at the broader landscape. Just trying to help control the madness.

I like the movie analogy you brought up earlier. There are definitely people who think Avengers Endgame or Avatar is the best movie ever. They could point to a bunch of things in the movies that they think are great and contribute to the greatness of the movie. But surely no one would say "I think this is great because it made the most money ever." NO one thinks like that right?

Can't wait!

Is the plan on PWO to use the same forum and wrestler threads as before?

Once Grimmas officially does the roll out and the project starts, I will promote the heck out of the Joshi people I like. I'll be happy to go really in depth on recommendations or walking through a specific case. Of if you just wanna dip your toes in, I'm happy to help with that too. Whatever. Basically this exactly. Over the last several years I've gone through the original AJW Classics on Samurai in full. I've watched all of the stuff on 90s Yearbooks and other 90s stuff that didn't make it on the yearbooks. I'm going to go through all of Alex's youtube channel to fill in gaps on 80s TV i've missed. I was about to do that but sort of got sidetracked on that late 90s/early 00s stuff that I've been watching lately. I feel like I'm solid on all the big names up until like 2002ish. I don't really need to watch anymore Chigusa or Nakano to know them as wrestlers. But there are some folks that weren't featured as much on Classics I wanna look closer at like Jumbo Hori or Yumi Ikeshita. I don't have much 90s work to do but there's a few things here and there. Like I haven't watched much pre-Arison Mariko Yoshida in a couple of decades at least so I need to spend a little time on things like that. I'm basically a blank slate on 2003-present day Joshi so if anyone wants to take that journey with me, that'd be great!

I feel like after finishing up Joshi, the French stuff is going to be my next venture.

I can help you with a plan for 80s and 90s Joshi for sure. A decent chunk of my upper tier is gonna come from that era. I voted for Joshi mostly based on memory last time around. Having gone through a ton of it over the last couple of years, that was a big mistake. Hokuto, Bull, Devil, Dump, Jaguar, and Chigusa are all wrestlers likely to make or at least contend for spots in my top 10. The best 80s and 90s Joshi is the best stuff I've ever watched.

I mean....Matt pretty famously puts the work in and explains his positions. edit: Matt there's a shocking lack of Bull Nakano on that list.

I want to watch every piece of available Johnny Valentine footage.

Its an interesting thing to think about. Something else I'm going to think about is managers. Those Midnight Express matches that got Bobby Eaton ranked 28th overall in 2016 aren't the same without Jim Cornette. I'm sure we can find examples of Sherri Martel working harder at ringside than the guys in the ring. Bobby Heenan, Jimmy Hart etc.

I think this is more than fair. I know it was discussed a little last time (I think by Matt) and I think partially in jest but maybe not totally....but this made me think about Pat Patterson and his laying out the finishes for big WWF matches and whether that merits any discussion or thought in regards to his case. Its difficult because its pretty unknowable, but might be worth investigating.

I don't understand how but this is where people always get lost. Saying its a footage based project doesn't mean to ignore charisma and character work in favor of discovering who did the best bridge on a german suplex or whatever strawman they want to come up with. Success I absolutely think you should ignore. Randy Savage walking to the ring jawing with the crowd, spinning around doing his thing IS part of his performance. Consider and count that. Randy Savage being in Slim Jim commercials and drawing some big buyrates on PPV (clear measures of success and looming large over the business) doesn't mean anything to the project. At least that was how I viewed 2016 and 2026.

I'm glad Grimmas is gonna lay out the criteria in advance.

"Top 100 in ring performers based on available footage" doesn't have as good a ring to it as "Greatest Wrestler Ever", but thats really the point of the project the way I see it. Otherwise why bother watching anything and waiting till 2026 because its Hogan #1 project over. Thats no fun

I can understand how it would look bleak especially on the heels of the interpromotional era. Anything is going to look bleak compared to the literal best wrestling that has ever happened. When I look around the early 2000s Joshi landscape, I see a whole lot of good. Bull Nakano was gone and that's tragic, but the early retirements had in general stopped and you had people like CHigusa, Lioness, and Jaguar back. The the women from the greatest generation didn't retire right away anymore so you'd have these veterans in various promotions. Aja over here. LCO over there. Kyoko over here. Takako over there. And then the next generation has some really interesting wrestlers. Meiko Satomura, Chikayo Nagashima, The Bloody, Yoshiko Tamura, Ran Yu Yu, Misae Genki etc. Its a lot more spread out, but trying to look at the full picture there's a ton of really great wrestlers. I've been really surprised at how much I've liked some of this stuff. Its not like DreamSlam I level, but nothing is. I hope some of those folks get a real look ahead of 2026.

The Bloody is really impressive. She was a fantastic athlete and crazy bumper. I want to watch a lot more of her but she seems better than a number of people I voted for in 2016. The future of Joshi looked so bright in the early 2000s. I was a big fan at the time but it holds up better than I expected.

I'd strongly encourage people to make rough drafts. Do it now before the project starts and then continue to do them as the project continues. It will help you figure out your top contenders, and your borderline people, and who you're super familiar with and who you need to watch more of and think about. Absolutely don't wait until the last week or day to start making a list. And do what OJ says above. Read the threads, ask for recommendations etc.

I will spend way too much time engaging in pro-Baba arguments and end up the high vote on him. That's like guaranteed to happen hahaha.

I absolutely agree that people should be trying to find new favorite workers. As grimmas said, that's the real point. Perhaps I should clarify because I definitely don't mean to suggest people should only watch things they are familiar with and know they like. I mean to be realistic when it comes to "closing gaps." I've been watching 70s Japanese wrestling since the late 90s? and I haven't seen every single match from everybody. That's what I mean. "Filling your gaps" doesn't necessarily mean watching every last piece of footage from a wrestler or era. That's an unreasonable goal. No one can watch all of everything. That's not the expectation. I also mean exactly the other thing. If you give Lou Thesz a chance and watch some matches and don't like it, I don't think anyone should feel "forced" or excluded if they decide watching old Lou Thesz matches isn't for them. In addition to no one can watch all of everything, no one is going to like everything. But definitely seek out new wrestlers. We haven't even started yet and in the last week I wanted to watch some old turn of the century fav, Chikayo Nagashima and after watching a few matches and digging the hell out of her it led me down a rabbit hole and now I'm trying to find NEO and Jd' matches and I'm super excited about watching The Bloody and Yoshiko Tamura because I never gave them a real look back in the $20 per VHS tape days. As I was saying, you get out of the project what you get into it. If you spend the time engaging in positive arguments and seeking out new stuff you like, you'll have an enjoyable experience. If you focus on stuff you hate, you'll hate it. If I spend the next 5 years talking about how annoying I think Toshiaki Kawada is or forcing myself to watch modern NJPW that I hate just because I'm "supposed" to like it, I'm going to hate the project. If I spend my time watching 00s Jd' or 90s Puerto Rico or the French stuff, I'm going to enjoy my time a lot more. Now, perhaps things will change and I'll see something and it'll make alllll of the modern NJPW click and I'll want to watch that. But in the meantime, there are plenty of rabbit holes I can go down to discover new wrestlers that are exciting to me and not a chore to watch. I'm 36 now. I'm not spending my hobby time on stuff I hate when there's plenty of stuff I love.

My advice to people who didn't participate in 2016 or jumped in at the end is pretty simple: 1. Have fun. First and last have fun. If that means engaging in as many discussions as possible on every available platform, that's great! Do that! There will be plenty of people who take things way too seriously right along with you. If you want to be a more passive participant and just follow along with discussions and not really join in, I think that's fine too. There's no participation requirement or minimum. Figure out how to make GWE work for you. 2. Don't expect to fill all of your gaps. Its a noble goal and I would definitely encourage watching as much as possible. But sometimes you just run out of time. And other things you just don't like and that's fine too. If you hate old school wrestling, don't feel like you have to go out and watch a bunch of Lou Thesz just because. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. This is a hobby, it isn't homework. There is zero way I'm going to watch a bunch of Nigel McGuinness and thats fine. I don't have oo. Just like no one HAS to watch a bunch of Ron Starr just because I really like him. 3. Don't expect to have an opinion on every wrestler, even if it seems like some people do. 4. If you need to take a break, take a break. You don't have to binge watch wrestling everynight for 5 years. No one expects that. Unless thats what brings you joy. In that case, go for it! You won't get any judgment here. 5. Remember its about having fun. You get out of the project what you put in. If you focus solely on tearing down candidates you feel forced to watch but don't enjoy or can't accept criteria or some particular argument is rubbing you the wrong way and you keep engaging in it, then you're going to fucking hate this project. If you focus on watching and talking about the things you like, you're going to have a great time. Have a great time! Wrestling is fun! 6. Terry Funk for #1!

Its gonna be awesome and we're all going to have so much fun watching, writing, reading, talking and thinking about a ton of great wrestlers! Theres nothing to worry about! I am firmly in the 2016 was a blast camp and I think this one will be even better! The only anxiety should be about cutting a list down to only 100 because theres so much great wrestling!

I can't tell if this is a joke or not because its been 3 whole weeks of pre-project discussion for a project 5 years away and this thread is full of people making suggestions from zoom to discord to twitter to youtube and people encouraging openness and inclusivity. Grimmas has said repeatedly that he wants to use other modes of communication and not just limit it to PWO. No one is saying they want it to be PWO only.