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elliott

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Everything posted by elliott

  1. Who are some people who had really great runs as babyfaces AND as heels. Is it important to you that your top tier candidates are great at both roles?
  2. We had one of these in 2016 and I figured it would be nice to have as a reference point for 2026. So what does your current top 10 look like? Who's in and who's knocking on the door? Is there anyone who looks like a candidate for your top 10 but you're hoping to see more of during the project? What do you need to see out of a top 10 candidate?
  3. We've had a bunch of activity with people making top 100 matches lists and I figured fuck it, lets start a thread. So in honor of Tim, I decided to start the "So So Good" Top 100 Matches of All Time thread. So if you've got a top 100 matches list, share it! If you don't, make one! Lists are fun! I've been playing around for a few days and was making changes up until 15 seconds ago. There are a ton of things I'd like to rewatch to make sure I get the correct dates. There are definitely some Buddy Rose, Fujiwara, Fabulous Ones, etc matches I'm sure would make a top 100 for me but I need to rewatch to be sure I get the right Fujiwara/Super Tiger for example. But in the meantime... edit to correct date of Regal/Ohno
  4. elliott

    Your "So So Good" Top 100 Matches of All Time

    On break at work but I'll toss some quick thoughts out. Itst just sort of match by match and works out that way. I think peak Matsumoto 85-86 is the most compelling performer in wrestling history. There isn't anyone else working like her. So even though they both took place on AJW cards in August 1985, something like Chigusa vs Devil 8/22/85 that I ranked 64, may as well take place in an entirely different universe from the Dump vs Chigusa match from 8/28/85. So its not just that what AJW was doing was better than everything else, its that Dump Matsumoto specifically was operating at a higher level for that era. Realisitcally I could have included more of her matches, like a lot more, but then I'd have less room for Moondogs or Beulah. But seriuosly, I've been banging the drum on Dump vs Ohmori for the last several years. I thought if I was going to have that at #1, those other matches vs Chigusa, vs Itzuki & the 10/85 tag match are all really special and approaching that level anyway. Same thing with Hokuto/Kandori matches. I think early-mid 90s AJW is an amazing promotion with some of the best matches ever, but the Hokuto/Kandori rivalry is atypical for them. You can't compare what they're doing with what Kyoko or Toyota are doing even though its all under the "AJW" umbrella if that makes sense? Hokuto & Kandori are working on a much grander scale. Like there are 4 total matches as part of the Hokuto/Kandori feud starting with DreamSlam I and finishing with the Queendom tag. They're all in my top 50.
  5. elliott

    Your "So So Good" Top 100 Matches of All Time

    We just did our annual vote for the Greatest Matches Ever over at the GME board and I figured I'd bump this thread and share my new list top 100 and encourage others to share theirs. 100. Chikayo Nagashima vs Sugar Sato (Street Fight - Oz Academy - 11/4/02) 99. Terry Funk, Tommy Dreamer & Beulah vs Mick Foley, Edge & Lita (ECW One Night Stand 6/11/06) 98. Rob Van Dam & Bill Alfonso vs Tommy Dreamer & Beulah (ECW As Good as it Gets - 9/20/97) 97. Midnight Express vs Road Warriors (Night of the Skywalkers Scaffold Match - JCP Starrcade - 11/27/86) 96. Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine & Fuerza Guerrera vs El Hijo del Santo & Blue Panther & Octagon (AAA - 8/28/93) 95. Crusher Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs Mad Dog Vachon & Baron Von Raschke (AWA - 3/13/83) 94. Buzz Sawyer vs Tommy Rich (Last Battle of Atlanta Steel Cage Match - GCW - 10/23/83) 93. LA Park vs Dr Wagner Jr (TXT - 5/11/13) 92. El Hijo del Santo & Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje vs Negro Casas & El Dandy & Hector Garza (CMLL - 11/29/96) 91. Steve Austin vs Dude Love (No DQ Falls Count Anywhere - WWF Over the Edge - 5/31/98) 90. Invader I vs Ron Starr (WWC - 9/19/86) 89. El Hijo del Santo vs La Parka (Monterrey - 12/23/01) 88. Atsushi Onita vs Great Sasuke (No Rope Barbed Wire Time Bomb Exploding Landmine Double Hell Death Match - Michinoku Pro - 10/30/94) 87. Terry Funk & Dory Funk Jr vs Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (AJPW - 8/31/83) 86. La Parka & Rey Mysterio Sr & Halloween vs Rey Mysterio Jr & Damian 666 & Vampiro (Tijuana - 10/26/01) 85. Terry Funk vs Sabu (Barbed Wire Death Match - ECW Born to be Wired - 8/9/97) 84. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto (RINGS - 6/24/99) 83. Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior (Retirement Match - WWF WrestleMania VII - 3/24/91) 82. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Vader (UWFi - 6/10/94) 81. Terry Funk & Dory Funk Jr vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik (AJPW - 12/13/79) 80. Tully Blanchard vs Ron Garvin (JCP - 5/3/86) 79. Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (UWF - 12/5/84) 78. El Dandy vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 9/23/88) 77. El Satanico vs Sangre Chicana (EMLL - 5/26/89) 76. Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (AJWP - 1/28/86) 75. Greg Valentine vs Roddy Piper (JCP - 7/9/83) 74. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai (AJW - 11/26/92) 73. Shinya Hashimoto & Takashi Iizuka vs Naoya Ogawa & Kazunari Murakami (NJPW - 1/4/00) 72. El Satanico vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 12/14/90) 71. Buzz Sawyer vs Jim Duggan (UWF - 11/11/85) 70. Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Masanobu Kurisu & Kendo Nagasaki (Texas Death Match - FMW - 4/1/90) 69. Cactus Jack & Maxx Payne vs Nasty Boys (Chicago Street Fight - WCW Spring Stampede - 4/17/94) 68. Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala (Fire Match - WWC - 9/10/88) 67. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine (Double Mask vs Double Hair - AAA - 11/16/94) 66. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/92) 65. Fabulous Ones vs Moondogs (CWA - 4/4/83) 64. Devil Masami vs Chigusa Nagayo (AJW - 8/22/85) 63. Sgt Slaughter & JYD vs Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff (WWF - 10/13/84) 62. El Hijo del Santo vs El Dandy vs Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair vs Hair - CMLL - 12/6/86) 61. Bull Nakano & Grizzly Iwamoto vs Aja Kong & Bison Kimura (AJW - 8/19/90) 60. Jerry Lawler & Bam Bam Bigelow vs Tommy Rich & Austin Idol (Double Jeopardy - CWA - 3/16/87) 59. Fabulous Ones vs Moondogs (Stretcher Match - CWA - 5/2/83) 58. Jaguar Yokota vs La Galactica (AJW - 2/27/85) 57. Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (EMLL - 11/1/91) 56. The Destroyer vs Giant Baba (JWA - 3/5/69) 55. The Rock & Roll Express vs The Russians (JCP - 7/9/85) 54. Atsushi Onita vs Terry Funk (No Rope Barbed Wire Exploding Ring Death Match - FMW - 5/5/93) 53. Johnny Valentine vs Wild Bull Curry (Houston - 6/20/69) 52. Sgt Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (Boot Camp Match - WWF - 6/16/84) 51. Jerry Lawler vs King Kong Bundy ($10,000 Challenge - CWA 7/16/84) 50. Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (Cage Match - AJW - 11/14/90) 49. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (RINGS - 6/27/98) 48. Terry Funk & Hiroshi Ono vs Shoji Nakamaki & Nobutaka Araya (Hair vs Hair No Rope Barbed Wire Fire Death Match - IWA Japan - 11/13/94) 47. El Hijo del Santo & Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Negro Casas & Tim Patterson & Horace Boulder (FMW/WWA - 5/16/92) 46. Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW - 12/6/93) 45. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Volk Han (RINGS - 1/22/97) 44. Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami (JWP - 4/18/93) 43. Fabulous Ones vs Moondogs (No DQ Loser Leaves Town - CWA - 1/16/84) 42. Kerry Von Erich & Kevin Von Erich vs Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy (Country Whipping Match - WCCW - 11/4/83) 41. Jerry Lawler & Bam Bam Bigelow vs Tommy Rich & Austin Idol (Texas Death Match - CWA - 3/23/87) 40. Terry Funk & Dory Funk Jr vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik (AJPW - 12/9/78) 39. Akira Hokuto & Aja Kong vs Shinobu Kandori & Eagle Sawai (AJW DreamSlam II - 4/11/93) 38. Kerry Von Erich vs Michael Hayes (Country Whipping Match - WCCW - 9/5/83) 37. El Hijo del Santo & Negro Casas (Mask vs Hair - CMLL - 9/19/97) 36. Megumi Kudo & Combat Toyoda (No Rope Exploding Barbed Wire Death Match - FMW - 5/5/96) 35. Jerry Lawler vs Terry Funk (No DQ - CWA - 3/23/81) 34. Jerry Lawler & Randy Savage vs King Kong Bundy & Rick Rude (CWA - 9/10/84) 33. Terry Funk vs Stan Hansen (AJPW - 4/14/83) 32. Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (Cage Match - 7/5/86) 31. Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 2/28/86) 30. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 9/23/83) 29. Invader I vs Al Perez (Street Fight - WWC - 10/26/86) 28. Tully Blanchard vs Magnum TA (I Quit Cage Match - JCP Starrcade - 11/28/85) 27. Kerry Von Erich vs Michael Hayes (Loser Leaves Town Cage Match - WCCW - 11/24/83) 26. Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town - CWA - 12/30/85) 25. Jerry Lawler vs Andy Kaufman & Colossus of Death (Handicap Piledriver Match - CWA - 5/2/83) 24. Jerry Lawler vs Andy Kaufman (Boxing Match - CWA - 11/4/83) 23. Andy Kaufman vs Jimmy Hart (CWA - 7/11/83) 22. Jerry Lawler vs Andy Kaufman (CWA - 4/5/82) 21. Midnight Express vs Rock & Roll Express (Night of the Skywalkers Scaffold Match - JCP Starrcade - 11/26/87) 20. The Rock vs Hollywood Hogan (WWE WrestleMania 18 - 3/17/02) 19. Jerry Lawler vs Terry Funk (Empty Arena Match - CWA - 4/6/81) 18. Alexander Otsuka vs Mitsuhiro Matsunaga (BattlArts - 11/19/99) 17. Chicky Starr vs Invader III (Scaffold Match - WWC - 5/86) 16. Roddy Piper vs Greg Valentine (Dog Collar Match - JCP Starrcade - 11/24/83) 15. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 7/29/93) 14. Terry Funk & Dory Funk Jr vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik (AJPW - 12/15/77) 13. Terry Funk & Dory Funk Jr vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik (AJPW - 7/15/79) 12. Infierno en el Ring (CMLL - 9/28/01) 11. Stan Hansen vs Andre the Giant (NJPW - 9/23/81) 10. The Four Horsemen & JJ Dillon vs The Super Powers & Paul Ellering (WarGames - JCP - 7/4/87) 9. Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (AJPW - 11/29/89) 8. Jerry Lawler vs Austin Idol (Loser Leaves Town Hair vs Hair Steel Cage Match - CWA - 4/27/87) 7. Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto & Bull Nakano (AJW - 10/10/85) 6. Dump Matsumoto vs Itsuki Yamazaki (AJW - 8/21/86) 5. Dump Matsumoto vs Chigusa Nagayo (Hair vs Hair - AJW - 8/28/85) 4. Dump Matsumoto vs Chigusa Nagayo (Hair vs Hair - AJW - 11/7/86) 3. Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW DreamSlam - 4/2/93) 2. Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong & Bull Nakano (AJW Queendom - 3/27/94) 1. Dump Matsumoto vs Yukari Ohmoi (AJW - 3/20/86)
  6. elliott

    Yokozuna

    This is interesting. I was wondering if you still think this.
  7. elliott

    Your #100 Spot

    In 2016 a lot of people reserved their #100 spot for personal favorites that maybe didn't necessarily deserve to make the list. I was wondering if people plan on doing that this time around and if so, Whom are you thinking about for the #100 spot? For example in 2016 I voted Mad Dog Vachon #100. I sorta thing he actually deserves to be on the list this time or a least stronger consideration than just #100 in the personal favorite spot. So I've thought a little about who I might save that last space for and have a few people in mind. Who are you all thinking about for that last spot?
  8. elliott

    Bruno Sammartino

    I agree with Stro here. Bruno's mid-80s run is a ton of fun. Definitely good enough to have made me want to check more out.
  9. In the Bruno Sammartino thread @CurtainJerker had a great post that has got me thinking. I didn't want to derail the Bruno thread so I wanted to reply to it here. I have lots of random thoughts so I thought it was best to have some fun and respond to it like its tOA in 1999. Here's the original post https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/28765-bruno-sammartino/?do=findComment&comment=5967701 Oh I dont think its controversial to not vote for Hogan, Dusty, Rock, Bruno types. The best any of them did is 75th (Hogan, and he was still behind Brian Pillman & Kurt Angle). I think proposing those top guys are great in ring performers is gonna be more controversial for a lot of people I think Hogan's psychology & talent had a ton to do with why he became literally the biggest star in the history of wrestling. It was definitely not just the looks & the booking. If it was, there would've have been more stars on the level of Hulk Hogan. Lord knows they tried to create more but they could neve replicate the magic, because Hogan had the looks & and the booking but as importantly Hogan was also a great pro-wrestler. All the great booking, marketing and mic work don't mean anything if you can't perform when the bell rings. Hogan brought the goods. He was great at selling, phenomenal puncher. Really excelled in 10-15 minute sprints. He was a better athlete than we remember. More than willing to bleed. Underrated tag wrestler. He's awesome working the apron and waiting for the hot tag. Like one of the best apron workers of all time. Great on the hot tag too. His offense is limited but its good. The punches look good, the big boot often looks good, his body slam is perfection, great atomic drop, good lariat, I have no issues with the leg drop either. He'd mix in other stuff too on occasion (suplexes or backbreakers) and it tends to look good because Hulk Hogan wasn't gonna try and do stuff that he couldn't do. There are pros & cons to this for sure that we could get into if necessary. When he did step outside of his comfort zone he showed he could do more than what Vince asked him to. Rock you could argue became a huge star in spite of the booking. Nobody looks back at the Russo Era fondly for the booking. After Russo left HHH really rose to power and he wasn't trying to do The Rock any favors. Rock's 1999 PPVs look like this: Rumble - Beat Foley St Valentine's Day - Double KO w/ Foley WrestleMania - Loss to Austin Backlash - Loss to Austin Ove the Edge - Beat HHH by DQ King of the Ring - Loss to Undertaker Fully Loaded - Loss to HHH in a No DQ Strap Match SummerSlam - Beat Billy Gunn in a "Kiss My Ass" match Unforgiven - Loss to HHH in 6 pack challenge also in the match Mankind, Big Show, Davey Boy Smith, Kane No Mercy - Beat Davey Boy Smith Survivor Series - Loss to Big Show (HHH also in match and to be fair HHH took the fall amazingly) Armageddon - teaming with Foley beat New Age Outlaws This is not the big match resume' of someone who is benefitting from a ton of booking & access to quality opponents. Rock was an incredible athlete & bumper for his size. He understood how to work heel & babyface and how to adjust his ring work accordingly, even in the same match if necessary. Underrated offensive wrestler at different stages of his career. Knew how to change up based on his opponent. He didn't work the same against Austin as he did Hogan as he did Kurt Angle as he did against HHH. I would push back on the idea that they had "access to the best opponents." Hogan definitely got to wrestle some great opponents in his prime. Bockwinkel & Savage the obvious ones, I think Orndorff is really underrated & Piper eve more so. But he had to work with a lot of bad-mediocre wrestlers too. I love King Kong Bundy but they were trying to make the 2nd biggest show in wrestling history happen and Bundy was Hogan's opponent. I would argue that Ric Flair consistently got to work with a higher level of opponent than Hogan did. When HOgan was against good opponents, he had good to great matches. He gave some people the best match of their career: Kamala, Ultimate Warrior, Tenta, Bossman. Rock probably peaks around 2001. He has 4 matches that year opposite Shane McMahon not Jun Akiyama. His career rivals are Austin (great) and HHH (the worst). Rock wasn't Flair or Misawa out there working with Kenta Kobashi and Ricky Steamboat for the better part of a decade. Its not just about crowd connection. And no one is talking about titles or awards. Its about the work & performance. Connecting with the crowd is certainly part of that. I think connecting with the crowd is a more important trait or skill a for pro-wrestler than doing the smoothest dropkick or the best bridge on a german suplex. RIcky Steamboat doesn't work heel better than Hogan or Rock. I'm not sure I'd say Steamboat is a better brawler. Hogan got over better & has better matches in Japan than Steamboat. And that's not an access to opponents thing unless you want to argue Inoki or the Road Warriors are better wrestlers than Flair, Tenryu & Misawa. If I were doing some kind of draft I'd choose Rock or Hogan over Steamboat because I'd be able to hire an army of Steamboats with all the money I rake in with HOgan or Rock But thats not what this project is about. This project is about the performance. Everyone you mentioned here has a strong chance to make my list other than Crusher or Dory Funk Jr. I got room for Abdullah the Butcher and Rick Martel.
  10. elliott

    Shawn Michaels vs Kenny Omega

    Its weird to me that this thread has so many replies and Misawa vs Danielson has 3.
  11. elliott

    Bruno Sammartino

    I think these folks all have as good an argument for the top 100 as just about anybody. Hogan & Rock are definitely making my top 100. Still haven't decided on Bruno, Austin & dusty yet
  12. elliott

    Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto

    According to the last poll, PWO prefers Hashimoto to Tsuruta. But what about Hashimoto vs Tenryu?
  13. elliott

    Stock Rising/Stock Falling

    This is fascinating to me because I thought the Buddy/Hennig/Hayes vs Rip Oliver & Friends was my favorite part of the set. I loved all of those matches.
  14. I figure we're several months into the project so we could go for a Stock Rising & Stock Falling thread. Who's rising up your list, who is falling? Any surprising top 10 contenders? Anyone you initially viewed as an all time great that you're starting to question?
  15. elliott

    Questions for the GWE Podcast

    Here's a question, If a wrestler is a shitty human being in real life, does if effect how you'll rank them?
  16. elliott

    Stock Rising/Stock Falling

    There's a handheld match from June 1991 between these two teams that is amazing as well that I'd highly recommend. It doesn't have the magical crowd, but the work is at a high level. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnSXXP_uSQ
  17. elliott

    The Von Erichs

    I agree with your assessment of Fritz. He's almost certainly the best and an all time great but I just need to see more. The Baba matches are must see matches that everyone should prioritize. They're so great I wouldn't really bat an eye at someone voting for Fritz and he's someone I'll think about at some point during this. Interesting to see David get a vote. I always thought he was pretty bad and I'll overlook just about anything as long as jumping knees are involved.
  18. elliott

    The Von Erichs

    Kerry is a lock for my list. Huge fan. I'm glad we've sort of managed to put to bed the idea that he wasn't at least a good worker. I can accept someone saying Kerry isn't a top 100 all time worker, but I think the old line about him being bad and needing to be carried is crazy. (Obviously that changes towards the end of his career when he's a mess). Kevin is someone I'm going to think a lot about. He's a tentative no right now for a top 100 list, but he'd be on a top 100 favorites. I absolutely love him in tag & multi man matches. I plan on revisiting some singles matches as we go along. Huge fan of his ultra stiff uncooperative style. It really stands out for the era and fits in.
  19. I haven't thought much about this yet but 10 years ago I would have laughed at this and said 90s WWF, but now I'm not so sure. The 80s has: Slaughter's great run from 80-84, plenty of very good-great Backlund title matches, Ken Patea''s 1980, Greg Valentine vs Tito, Savage vs Tito, Savage vs Steamboat, Hogan has a ton of good-very good matches, Andre is a God, Savage is at his peak, Piper is awesome in 80s WWF, Terry goddamn Funk comes in for a good run. While they might have stopped having 20+ minute classics after a certain point, there are still a ton of awesome sprints and brawls that are worth your time in 80s WWF. It wasn't the dead in ring promotion you'd hear it talked about in the past. I'll have to think more about it.
  20. elliott

    Shinya Hashimoto

    Love to see that Michael! Hashimoto has a shot at being my highest ranked traditional (non-shoot) puro male. Its him or Tenryu. These days I'm leaning more towards Hashimoto
  21. elliott

    Shawn Michaels vs Kenny Omega

    Didn't Omega's run as a big US star just begin within the last couple of years?
  22. elliott

    Psicosis

    Any thoughts on Psicosis? Whats his last 20 years been like?
  23. elliott

    Bam Bam Bigelow

    Did you ever get around to watching much Jerry Blackwell?
  24. elliott

    Bam Bam Bigelow

    OOoh! Another counterpoint: King Kong Bundy Rules!!! Bundy is someone I have really come to enjoy and I want to watch a lot more of in the coming years. I don't think he's a candidate for this project and I think he's maybe the worst of this crew of big super heavyweights. BUt he's in two of my all time favorite matches: The $10,000 Challenge vs Lawler that I ranked as the 25th Greatest Match Ever last year w/ Rick Rude vs Lawler & Savage 9/10/84 that I have as the 48th Greatest match ever. None of the rest of those guys have a match in my top 50, let alone 2. Including Vader. Thats enough to make me want to dig a little deeper.
  25. elliott

    Shawn Michaels vs Kenny Omega

    I have no dog in this fight, but why would it matter if Kenny's had a match in the US as good as Shawn's best? Has Shawn had a match in Japan as good as Omega's?
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