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elliott

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Everything posted by elliott

  1. elliott

    2020 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    I know CIMA worked primarily in promotions where stables were the key as opposed to one or two performers, but can you talk a little about the biggest shows CIMA worked as a headliner? I'd love some match recs too. I really want someone to drop like 150 Dragon Gate recs for the GME Project. Have you ever done a Gordy list for cima? Kyoko Inoue on the ballot is crazy. Megumi Kudo, Shinobu Kandori, Dynamite Kansai and Mayumi Ozaki from the same era are all considerably better candidates.
  2. elliott

    GME Project: Greatest Match Ever 2020 Ballot

    Theres a pandemic. What else are you gonna do?
  3. elliott

    WrestleMania 36

    I watched with my roommate who last watched wrestling when she was like 11. She was a big fan of Rikishi back then, we watched the Andre the Giant HBO doc together recently (she loved it and wants to watch it again) and she LOVES the GLOW netflix show. She barely remembered Edge (he looked hot back then...now he's just old). She didn't even know Goldberg. Didn't know Ric Flair ("Why do they keep Woo-ing? Charlotte really likes to do the chops" etc). At one point asked "How do you even become a wrestler? Are there like regional tournaments?" So it would be a stretch to even call her a lapsed casual fan. The last Mania I watched live was 32. But with stay at home orders and the end of netflix reached like two weeks ago, we decided to watch. It was pretty fun in that context. We were looking for camp more than anything else. To say we didn't know anything about the storylines would be an understatement. I haven't seen a single Bray as the Fiend match or segment ever for example. Haven't seen most of the people on the card. Meanwhile she thinks you get to WWE by winning a regional tournament (????). But its Covid19-Mania so fuck it right? Night 1 we had a lot of fun. Kabuki Warriors had us at first rolling are eyes like "Kabuki Warriors...are they fucking serious" but my roommate pointed out that they had a lot of stage presence and felt professional (compared to what the divas were when she was a kid). Their costumes in particular are fantastic. We liked Alexa Bliss as like if Margot Robbie was born prematurely and had a meth addiction. Nikki Cross was the most business exposing wrestler of the night for my roommate, but we had a lot of fun making fun of her and the "Naughty Nikki" name. Elias vs King Corbin sucked but we pretended as though it was a gay lumberjack vs white supremacist. We really liked Becky vs Baszler. Roommate loved Shayna Baszler. Probably her favorite individual wrestler. Bryan vs Sami Zayn got over huge in our living room. Especially Zayn's stalling tactics. Roommate was pissed, and it got her heavily invested. She also loved Shinsuke Nakamura's look. Ladder match I would have hated in any other circumstance, but was fun in this setting. Roommate loved Kofi, liked John, hated Jimmy and then turned around and really liked Jimmy. The Kofi eye-poke spot was our favorite spot of the night up to this point. I'll point out here that my roommate thought everyone's name was stupid. "Daniel, John, Jimmy, Corbin. They can come up with any names and this is what they pick?" Even better was the next match... Kevin Owens vs Seth Rollins I knew I was going to hate because I have never seen either guy in a singles match that I didn't hate. So I made dinner and listened to my roommate shit all over the match. She thought it was boring and it dragged and their names being Kevin & Seth was stupid. Braun vs Goldberg was over so quick I don't think she looked up from her phone other than to say OMG at Braun's size. Boneyard match brought us all the way back in. We were both going absolutely crazy for it. At first I thought it was going to be the dumbest thing ever. I initially hated the cinematic aesthetic but pretty quickly realized what I was seeing was amazing. We both agreed they should get an EMMY. Overall night 1 we had a blast. The undercard was really fun and moved around quickly. We both agreed the silence was fucking weird. Roommate thought they should add in fake crowd noise or music. But overall we really liked it. Boneyard was so great it made up for Kevin & Seth which was the only true stinker. Night 2 was more of a mixed bag. We were fucking HYPED at the start. Charlotte vs Rhea Ripley was an awesome match. We were both super into it. Roommate was blown away by some of the stiff shots and was genuinely concerned for Ripley's leg. 6:24 PST my adult roommate said out-loud while watching WrestleMania in 2020 "That one was real. You can't fake that." And I was delighted. We both thought this was the best match of either night excluding the Boneyard match. Aleister Black vs Lashley had no chance of following the opener. "At least they're big giant muscley dudes" said roommate. Yall...WWE might know what they're doing? Its eye-opening to watch this stuff with an extreme casual fan. Speaking of... Otis vs Dolph was a legit hit in our living room. Otis got over as a sympathetic figure and roommate wanted to see Dolph destroyed. The post match got legit living room applause. She HATED Dolph. And you know how just a second ago I was like "Maybe WWE knows what they're doing" well the Edge vs Orton pre-match video package ALSO got over huge. Roommate was super invested. She hated Randy Orton from the video package. I mean legit heel heat. "This guy is the biggest asshole ever and I want to see him get killed" heel heat. And then those two went out and absolutely killed the entire 2 nights. We hated this. I did my best both nights not to try and influence her. Like I knew Kevin Owens vs Seth Rollins was gonna suck when I saw it listed, but I didn't want to tell her "These dudes are the fucking worst." If she liked them, then that would be great. But she hated Kevin & Seth. But BOY did she ever hate Edge vs Orton. I was in making & eating dinner mode during this match and kept quiet while roommate watched mostly silently. Finally she just yelled "IS THIS SHIT EVER GOING TO END?" We were barely halfway through the match. Hated it so much. We spent the 2nd half screaming at the TV for them to finish. According to wikipedia, that match was 36+ minutes and it felt like 200 years. How the same company can have a night like night 1 and then follow it up with this is beyond belief. Street Profits vs Austin & Angel. Roommate immediately liked this more than Edge vs Orton. Saying about the Street Profits "Now these guys, these guys are actually good wrestlers" (she was comparing them to Edge & Orton horror show) and noted their athleticism, teamwork and "synchronization." Women's 5 way really dragged and was too predictable. My only attempted influence of the night was to make roommate cheer for Sasha Banks. Roommate struggled to maintain interest honestly. Firefly Fun House did not work for us on any level and killed whatever interest roommate had left. She thought the Fiend was like a bush-league cheap Joker spoof. She hasn't been watching for forever so she doesn't know about John Cena's rookie year or his rapper phase or his match with Bray Wyatt from 5 years ago. She has no idea who Husky Harris is. Way to self referential and weird for the sake of weird. She got up and quit watching about halfway through and never came back. Mixed bag. I would say I liked it all overall. Night 1 was awesome. The Boneyard match unforgettable. Charlotte vs Rhea Ripley was a genuine MOTYC type match but night 2 was a disappointment after that. Edge vs Orton was as bad as that Fujita/Shiozaki match where they just stared at each other. Two of the worst matches in history. Unfortunately for WWE, a lot more people watched Edge/Orton. Honestly, if Charlotte vs Ripley had replaced Seth vs Kevin on night 1 and my roommate & I only watched Night 1, we'd probably watch a few more shows. Instead she texted me earlier and asked if there are any Andre the Giant matches on the network. Yes. Yes I believe there are.
  4. elliott

    WrestleMania 36

    The Boneyard match was the greatest thing to happen since the moon landing.
  5. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    Realistically, there are some fairly interesting candidates out there who aren't slam dunk candidates but are interesting in a world where Pillman, Hall, & Nash are getting added to the ballot and folks like Satomura & Hayabusa pull in enough votes to stay on the ballot. I remember years ago, jdw would always point to Kyoko Inoue as someone who might "deserve a shot at the ballot" and would always compare her to Arn Anderson. I don't think John would call Kyoko a strong candidate and its probable he was using the comparison to dig at Arn more so than advocate Kyoko. But now its not Arn Anderson anymore its "Arn, Tully & JJ" and Dave's adding Brian Pillman to the ballot. So I think there's room for more borderline Joshi candidates. Maki Ueda, Sato's partner in the Beauty Pair and The Black Pair (Yumi Ikeshita & Shinobu Aso) strike me as strong candidates, but I won't pretend I've done any significant research. I just know these were the big names in the 70s and AJW would run Budokan on occasion back then. Given that Sato went in the 1996 class by fiat, it seems like her tag team partner & their top rivals deserve a look. Jumbo Miyamoto? I would like to know more about Yukai Ohmori in general. I think she's awesome in the matches I've seen, but I don't know how valuable she was to the promotion compared to her 80s Peers. Although, she did win the 1986 AJW Grand Prix beating out Chigusa, Lioness & Dump. Additionally Ohmori & young Hokuto finished 2nd in the 86 Tag League behind Chigusa & Hotta. She also had a 400+ day long run with the WWWA Title in 86/87 Megumi Kudo & Shinobu Kandori seem like the obvious missing names from the 90s Interpromotional Era and Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki would seem to be right behind them. Actually Yumiko Hotta might be interesting to think about because she was well positioned for a long time. She finished 3rd in the 1987 Grand Prix ahead of Lioness & Devil & 2nd in 1988 (losing to Bull in the finals). In the 90s, Hotta won the 1994 & 1999 Grand Prix & was runner-up in 1990, 93 & 95. So during the Joshi Interpromotional Era Hotta's placement in AJW's signature singles tournament was: 2, 1, 2. Hotta had 3 longish runs with the WWWA title but it was post Prime Joshi era. She also has a Tag League win & runner up finish in the 80s and then a win & runner up finish in the 90s. Based on "Arn & Tully & JJ" and the fact that their specific run together was like 18 months before Arn & Tully jumped to WWF, the Jumping Bomb Angels & LCO seem like viable candidates. I don't know enough about Maki Ueda & the Black Pair to feel comfortable doing a ranked a top 5. But If I could include 5 act's to the ballot, it would be Ueda, Black Pair, Kudo, Kandori and the Jumping Bomb Angels. Although, I suspect Miyamoto belongs on that list, I just don't know anything about her. I don't know enough about territorial era women's wrestling to pick. Surely there's got to be some candidates? June Byers? I don't think Trish is a terrible candidate to be perfectly honest.
  6. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    I mentioned this earlier in this thread but we talked about other stuff instead. But I've been thinking about it for a few days while stuck inside. What do people think about Shinobu Kandori and Megumi Kudo as candidates for the ballot? I want to do more research on both of them especially in regards to mainstream success, but they seem like easily the biggest stars of Joshi's golden era that haven't been on the ballot. I know Kandori has been on TV shows for years and has done some MMA-y stuff that I don't give a shit about but WON folks might. LLPW actually has some fairly big drawing shows. 8000 for Kandori vs Bull. Almost 8,000 at Sumo Hall in 1998 when te Joshi scene was post-peak. Part of the most memorable match/feud of Joshi's golden era. Kandori was a name on some level starting in 1986 and her 50th birthday show in 2014 drew 8,000 at Sumo Hall (Tenryu & Fujiwara were in Kandori's match, because of course they were). That's a really long run, especially for a women's wrestler, to be a relevant name. Kudo I know was a star of some magnitude, perhaps a magazine darling? She was the face of the FMW women's division which put her in the position of having featured matches on major shows drawing 20,000-50,000 fans. On an interpromotional show with all the biggest stars in Joshi that was up to that point the biggest women's wrestling card in history (DreamSlam 1), Kudo was part of the tag team main event. Her exploding barbed wire match with Toyoda at FMW's 7th anniversary show was 2nd from the top on a show that drew 33,000+ without Atsushi Onita wrestling, and is one of the most famous Japanese matches of the 90s male or female. Kudo's retirement show saw her main event against Shark Tsuchiya and sell out Yokohoma arena. Opinions may vary on their in-ring ability, but no one would argue that they were less than good. Seems like there's room for them on a ballot that is adding Brian Pillman. Gonna do some more research, maybe find some WON quotes I can quote back at Dave.
  7. elliott

    Greatest year ever by a wrestler

    Chigusa Nagayo 1985 Satanico 1984 Ricky Morton in 1986 is a darkhorse pick. He had the singles feud with Flair and classic tag matches vs Midnights, Andersons, Ragin' & Ravishin'. Watching a 1986 Ricky Morton match he certainly looks like he's the best in the world. Invader I in 1986 is also a darkhorse pick. Awesome shit vs Al Perez, Ron Starr, Chick Starr, Eric Embry, Kamala, Brody, Sheepherders etc. Buddy Rose 1983 - Watched a bunch of Portland recently and so I wanted to throw a year out for Buddy. 1983 has the end of the Hennig feud, the Rose babyface turn and then the feud with Dynamite Kid & Rip Oliver. There are some tags & 6 mans with combinations of Buddy/Hennig/Billy Jack vs Rip Oliver/Dynamite/The Assassin that are shocking borderline MOTDC. There's also an awesome match with Chris Adams early in the year.
  8. elliott

    PWO Appreciation Thread

    This is a really nice thread in these dark times. MLD is right about this place being special. Stay safe everyone.
  9. elliott

    Catch-All Scummy Wrestling Behavior thread

    Rob Feinstein. That's all.
  10. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    Check out Vader vs Steamboat 10/16/93 Saturday Night lumberjack match for a really good Vader match outside the usual suspects.
  11. Thank you all for this thread! It's really cool! Great work, everyone!
  12. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    It is absolutely insane how great JCP was. I kinda forgot. So glad you guys are doing this project.
  13. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    Thanks for posting all of these reviews Will! And I was glad to see that note about Phil & Shoe's thoughts on this match, because I was blown the fuck away by this match. This and the Starrcade match are both top 10 contenders on my list and their GAB match is awesome too. I've not been in love with Arn the singles wrestler in 85/86 (compared to his peers in JCP), but that trio of tag matches really knocked my socks off. 1986 Ricky Morton just churned out great matches.
  14. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    Fixed the dates and added cities on the above recommendations, thanks to Paul's work. I kept the 9/22/86 WPW 6 man air date the same because Paul wasn't totally certain whether the match was 8/3 or 8/12. For those wondering, all of these matches are from GH's 4 Horsemen, Midnight and RnR Express comps and should be relatively easy to find.
  15. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    The 1/19/86 Flair/Garvin match from Atlanta that I recommended is on GH's old 4 Horsemen set and goes to a double count-out after around 25 min. There is some clipping, but it doesn't seem like we're missing over half of the match. "Clippedish" is how I noted it on my running list. Their 3/29/86 Cage match is also one to go out of your way to see.
  16. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    Thanks for updating the list Zubaz! I'm a bit behind you, but have some recommendations I'd love to see get consideration. 1986 was absolutely loaded. Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (Atlanta 1/19/86) Midnight Express vs Rock n Roll Express (SOTS 2/7/86) Dusty Rhodes vs Arn Anderson (Cage Match WPW 2/23/86) Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (WPW 2/23/86) Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (Handheld 3/9/86) Dusty Rhodes & Wahoo McDaniel vs Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard (Bullrope & Strap Match - Greensboro 3/29/86) Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (Cage Match - Greensboro 3/29/86) Dusty Rhodes vs Tully Blanchard (Texas Death Match - Charlotte 4/26/86) Midnight Express vs Rock n Roll Express (World Pro 4/12/86) Dusty Rhodes & Wahoo McDaniel vs Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard (Bullrope & Strap Match - Charlotte WPW 4/12/86) Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (Cage Match - Roanoke WPW 7/11/86) Tully Blanchard vs Ronnie Garvin (Taped Fist Match - GAB 7/26/86 Rock & Roll Express & Magnum TA vs Ric Flair, Ole & Arn Anderson (Elimination Match - WPW 9/22/86) Rock & Roll Express vs Midnight Express (Handheld 8/16/86) Ron Garvin vs Big Bubba (Atlanta Street Fight - Starrcade 11/27/86) Dusty Rhodes vs Tully Blanchard (First Blood - Starrcade 11/27/86) Road Warriors vs Midnight Express (Scaffold Match - Starrcade 11/27/86) Rock & Roll Express vs Ragin' & Ravishin' (WorldWide 12/20/86) Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (Handheld - Cincinnati 1/4/87) Rock & Roll Express vs Ragin' & Ravishin' (Worldwide 2/87) Midnight Express vs Barry Windham & Ron Garvin (Pro 2/21/87)
  17. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    I really hope people give Flair/Steamboat 3/17/84 a close look. I thought it was the level of their 89 matches the last time I watched it. I'll have Piper/Valentine Dog Collar and Wargames 87 in some order at the top. Some of the matches that haven't been mentioned yet that I'm looking at in the 3-10 range are: Piper vs Valentine 7/83 RnR's vs Russians 7/9/85 Final Conflict Tully vs Ron Garvin 5/3/86 I haven't gotten there yet in my rewatching, but I expect the 9/87 Flair/Garvin title change will do well. I watched a cage match between them from 3/30/86 that I thought was really great and is something I'll revisit again later in the project. On the first watch I saw it as a top 10 sort of contender.
  18. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    What are folks' early project top 5-10 contenders?
  19. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    I didn't want to post a big list of recs because Zubaz said he was trying to start them out slowly to keep discussion moving. Pretty much everything I would have recommended for the 90s have been nominated except for a few, so I figured I'd add those and hold off on 80s recs for now. I did include one 70s match though because I just watched it and didn't want to forget it. So I'd put these matches up for consideration: Greg Valentine vs Wahoo 9/7/77 Barry Windham vs Brian Pillman Taped Fist Superbrawl 5/19/91 Vader vs Ricky Steamboat 4/24/93 Vader vs Ricky Steamboat Lumberjack Match 10/16/93 Larry Zbysko vs Steven Regal Slamboree 5/22/94 Terry Funk vs Tully Blanchard Slamboree 5/22/94 Vader vs Hacksaw Duggan Starrcade – 12/27/97 Steven Regal vs Fit Finlay Parking Lot Brawl – 4/29/96 Hulk Hogan & Dennis Rodman vs Lex Luger & Giant – 7/13/97 Also I saw on the Google Doc Criteria: "- If a match or event was promoted by Jim Crockett or Ted Turner owned-WCW it counts for this project." Does that mean the AAA/IWC When World's Collide show is acceptable, because it was promoted on WCW. If so I'd include El Hijo del Santo & Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine Double Mask vs Double Hair 11/6/94 Perro Aguayo vs Konnan Steel Cage 11/6/94 I think that would cover the 90s for me.
  20. elliott

    P2B Greatest Crockett/WCW matches

    Cool. I will work on putting together a big list of 80s recommendations later for JKWebb to add to his master list (thanks for starting that!). There are some major things missing so far. The first WarGames hasn't been mentioned and that's either my # 1 or 2. For those of us non-Facebook users, I propose we use the Greatest Matches Ever forum: http://gweproject.freeforums.net/ Also, unless I missed it in the thread, is it a top 50 matches, top 100?
  21. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    Fantastic! Thanks for posting this!
  22. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    I think the historical candidates should be treated more like the veterans committee for the baseball HOF. A limited number of voters not open to just everyone. Bearcat Wright got 125 votes for 48%. That seems like a lot of people voting in the historical bucket. I agree the way it would work as you describe it is silly. Especially when people voting for historical candidates now could also just vote for Slaughter (for example) now too if they thought he was worthy.
  23. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    All of the votes? I'm curious what Dave's fundamental point is here? That Slaughter belongs in? That Slaughter doesn't belong in? That waiting and judging a wrestler's career after the highpoint of their career is a better way to glean historical perspective than rushing to judgment during their peak and thus the voters are correct not to vote in Slaughter? Or the opposite? Its bizarre. I know "wrestlers never retire" but no other Hall of Fame works even remotely close to this. I will never understand why he thinks it is a good idea. And remember, the reason for the original 35 yrs old or 10 yrs experience was due to the forced early retirement for the 70s & 80s AJW wrestlers...so this major flaw was created for the sake of about 10 candidates...some of whom had already unretired and were regularly working again. I also disagree with the idea that there won't be viable candidates moving forward. We could search through the wrestlingclassics WON forum and find quotes from 15 years ago of people saying the exact same thing, but at least one modern wrestler has been voted in every single year except for 2008. It also suggests that all the historical candidates are in. Mark Lewin, The Sharpe Brothers, Pedro Morales, the Assassins, Eddie Quinn, Ray Fabiani have all gone in over the past 4 years. Hans Schmidt didn't even make it on the ballot until 2007, when he was 82 years old. Historians noted him as a possibly overlooked candidate, did the research and built a case for him and he was eventually voted in. Backlund went from 10 votes in 1998 to 110 votes in 2004 because more information became available, people considered it and voted for him. I think most people now would agree that Backlund absolutely belongs in. There has been successful and unexplored wrestling from all over the world. How many of us were familiar with Martin Karadagian in the years before he went in. If folks were really concerned with a lack of viable candidates going forward, they could start holding the historical candidates to the same low standard of the modern guys. When the Ultimo Dragon of the 1930s goes in, Dave should shut it down.
  24. elliott

    2019 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

    Dave's obit on JYD is one of the best things he's ever written.
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