elliott

I agree with this 1000%

I really enjoyed the community aspects of things and I hope we can explore more things in that realm. I can't remember the site but we did the live chat with matches we could watch together. That was fun. I know there were 80s set viewing parties. I think by now a lot of us are used to participating in awkward Zoom meetings with people we barely know. We could inject some wrestling into that. Along those lines, we could have zoom meetings or viewing parties with a curatorial aspect. Join Grimmas as he takes you through why Akira Hokuto is the greatest. An Evening With Matt D and Nick Bockwinkel. Loss Presents Ric Flair One Last Time. Stuff could be recorded and put on youtube for people who are interested in the topic but were unable carve out the time to join in. This may promote a more communal feeling than just "Listen to these 100 hours of podcasts." I'm not saying like do a power point presentation or a lecture. (I'm also not discouraging that! I'd go to Bockwinkel 401 w/ Professor Matt lolol!) Think of it more like a book club where the book of the month (or wrestler) is your selection so you're the one leading the discussion. Like pick a few matches, everyone can watch them together and discuss. Use the matches we all watch together as a jumping off point for deeper discussion. Something like that could be fun!

I've been calling Queendom 94 one of the greatest (as in 2 or 3) matches ever for over 20 years at this point. So I love this.

I honestly think it would have been the best set. When I watched the AJW Classics stuff I organized everything and watched it all in chronological order and just pretended it was the DVDVR 80s set and it was so satisfying. THere'd be these crazy awesome workrate tag matches then an insane Dump Matsumoto brawl and then heres Lioness & Chigusa doing like UWF style on fast forward. 80s AJW was just the best.

Oooh, maybe I can recommend you some matches!? I have these additional matches noted as recommendation worthy 80s Hokuto. Definitely worth checking out! w/ Yukari Ohmori vs Chigusa & Hotta 10/10/86 w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Glamour Girls 4/15/87 w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Yumi Ogura & Kazue Nagahori 4/27/87 vs Chigusa 3/19/89 w/ Minami vs Bison Kimura & Grizzly Iwamoto 6/18/89 (My quick note says this is like Doom vs The Rockers 2/3 Falls No DQ for 30 minutes and I specifically note Hokuto's performance, I gotta rewatch that hahaha!) I actually only have Kandori vs Masami JWP as a recommended 1988 Joshi match. So I'd like to see anything from that year honestly! I agree with the point about her being great and always standing out even in average matches. Thats why I welcome recommendations. There are certain wrestlers where I wanna watch everything they ever did no matter the length, setting or even quality of the match. Like I'll watch a 3 minute Terry Funk match from 2000 WCW or a 25minute Geriatric Satanico match because I wanna see it all. Hokuto is on that list. If theres a match she had, I wanna see it whether its a rookie year match or a 3 minute 1997 Nitro match.

I completely agree with this. I went through the original AJW CLassics on Samurai run a couple of years ago and have some other commercial tapes from the 80s but theres more out there I haven't gotten yet. Just watching the Classics run though, I love 80s AJW and between the Dump spectacles clean matches involving Crush Gals, Angels, Jaguar, Devil, Ohmori, and those mid card women I think people wouldve been shocked at how good 80s Joshi was.

I really loved Ohmori when I went through all of the original AJW CLassics. The match against Matsumoto was like a mind melting experience and I thought she had one of the 2 or 3 best Lioness matches I've seen. I agree about Hokuto to a degree. The earliest match she was in that I really liked was 1986. I think she was awesome right away, but I'd need to see more to put her in the best wrestler in the world category in 88 & 89. I think the talent is there, I just want to see more production. I've probably seen less than 15 matches from Hokuto in from 87-89. And those years have some mountains to climb to get to Best in the World consideration. But please point me in the direction of stuff! I'm happy to watch more 80s Joshi I've seen a ton of her from 1990 on and she's definitely insanely great by then. I can't call her the best in the world from 90-92 though because I think Bull is the clear best in the world those years. But "not being as good as 1990-92 Bull Nakano" is hardly an insult. Practically nobody has ever been that good. People talk about 92-95 Hokuto though because its her GOAT run. I think people that are familiar with her entire career realize she was a prodigy who was awesome right away and still really great when she retired. I've been reading old WON's and Hokuto (and Toyota) are talked about as being better than everyone else as early as 1991 and I have a feeling if I read the 1990 WONs the writing would be similar. There was lots of talk about her return to form in 2001. The issue was always that she took time off or worked partial schedules or people just weren't watching or there's not a ton of footage of her from the 80s (there might be now, thats why I'm asking for recommendations). Anyway I'm just rambling because we agree on the main point. Hokuto was always awesome.

Hahahaha! This was great!

I can't quite get there because I struggle with the longevity aspect. If we're talking about peak and peak alone, then they are in the conversation for me no doubt. I went through a ton of JOshi on the GME forum you set up and came away thinking that Bull was the best wrestler in the world from 90-92 and was genuinely always good. Even when she was like 17 years old she was a good wrestler. At her peak as an ace, I'd argue not only that Bull was the best wrestler in the world, she was in competition with people like Michael Jordan and Snoop Doggy Dogg for coolest living human. But she was retired by 29. Effectively retired as a full time performer by 26 (while she was still at the top of her game). Hokuto was the same way. (Only with the awesome GAEA run as a bonus). Peak only, I think theyre really strong contenders for the top spot. But for an all encompassing list, I just can't rank them ahead of someone like Terry Funk or El Hijo del Santo when those guys combine the peak abilities and with decades of greatness. Hokuto was 35 in 2002 when she retired for good. Terry Funk turned 35 in 1979. I just can't get there. I can say for certain they're 2 of the best wrestlers I've ever seen and the only people I'd for sure rank above them are those Funk, Santo, Hansen types who were awesome for like 25 years. Have you watched much 80s AJW? I'd love to see more Yukari Ohmori.

Hokuto & Bull are my 1 and 2 also. I have Devil Masami right there with them at #3.They're all in my top 15ish probably at this point with Chigusa, Jaguar & Matsumoto not far behind.

Who is your top rated women's wrestler Grimmas?

I agree with Matt!

I don't think character work on the apron should be discounted at all. I just recently did a deep dive on a match that I consider an all time great and pointed to Giant Baba's apron work as one of the many things that made the match great. Nor do I think jawing at the crowd during an entrance should be discounted. Now, if wrestler X was terrible as a performer but was really awesome at jawing with the crowd on the way to the ring, I doubt anyone would be lobbying them as an all time great based on yelling at the crowd while walking towards the ring. But anyway thats part of the performance and I don't think it should be discounted. I specifically mentioned ringside managerial work as something to consider. All that is is jawing with the fans Its the interviews and skits that are happening outside of the matches that I'm less interested in and don't really know what to do with. Dusty's Hard Times promo is awesome, but I'm not sure how I incorporate Dusty's talking with Negro Casas' wrestling in a list and rank them against each other. It seems like I should be judging Dusty as an in ring performer with Casas as an in ring performer, no?

I would prefer we didn't include skits and promos and stuff personally. The wrestling part is the universal language. I can look at the ring work from Lou Thesz to Kiyoshi Tamura to Negro Casas to Abdullah the Butcher and compare it to each other. I can tell you what I like best and what I think is best and why I think it contributes to wrestler X being great. When we start adding skits & promos, thats when it gets confusing. Ted Dibiase might do a great skit or Jake Roberts a great promo, but I don't know how to compare it to a Kenta Kobashi match. I feel different about ringside managerial work though because what Jim Cornette or Jimmy Hart was doing at ringside was very much part of the matches. But I just don't know what to do with the skits and interviews. Dibiase kicking the basketball away is closer to an SNL skit than a wrestling match. I'd say the being a real life asshole is kinda up to you. My hope would be that people focus on the ring work in the discussions. If the real life assholishness affects them as a worker, then its worth spending time discussing. I don't keep up with the backstage and real lives of wrestlers to know anything besides the obvious ones. So this won't really be a problem for me. But I understand if others feel differently. I'd let people choose their own adventure when it comes to that sort of thing. I also agree with Matt D that people shouldn't be voting for Muldoon or Frank Gotch or El Santo because we can't see the matches. There's a list that those guys belong on and we can do that list if people want. But I thought the point of the smarkschoice poll and GWE was to vote on in ring performances. So in terms of wording I would call it GWE but have it explained that its a ranking of the greatest in ring performers based on existing footage.

You say, this is a project meant to be about ring work not promos & drawing. Edit Of course, if the intent is to include that extra outside of the ring stuff, thats perfectly fine too! I just think that it should be made clear.

OMG, its been 5 years!?!?!?!?! It feels like its been 75 years. I think the best thing to do is make the criteria clear from the start so we don't spend 8 months talking about why Ted Dibiase's skits are so cool or how indy wrestler X could possibly be considered because they never made it to the big time or whatever.

I know CIMA worked primarily in promotions where stables were the key as opposed to one or two performers, but can you talk a little about the biggest shows CIMA worked as a headliner? I'd love some match recs too. I really want someone to drop like 150 Dragon Gate recs for the GME Project. Have you ever done a Gordy list for cima? Kyoko Inoue on the ballot is crazy. Megumi Kudo, Shinobu Kandori, Dynamite Kansai and Mayumi Ozaki from the same era are all considerably better candidates.

Theres a pandemic. What else are you gonna do?

I watched with my roommate who last watched wrestling when she was like 11. She was a big fan of Rikishi back then, we watched the Andre the Giant HBO doc together recently (she loved it and wants to watch it again) and she LOVES the GLOW netflix show. She barely remembered Edge (he looked hot back then...now he's just old). She didn't even know Goldberg. Didn't know Ric Flair ("Why do they keep Woo-ing? Charlotte really likes to do the chops" etc). At one point asked "How do you even become a wrestler? Are there like regional tournaments?" So it would be a stretch to even call her a lapsed casual fan. The last Mania I watched live was 32. But with stay at home orders and the end of netflix reached like two weeks ago, we decided to watch. It was pretty fun in that context. We were looking for camp more than anything else. To say we didn't know anything about the storylines would be an understatement. I haven't seen a single Bray as the Fiend match or segment ever for example. Haven't seen most of the people on the card. Meanwhile she thinks you get to WWE by winning a regional tournament (????). But its Covid19-Mania so fuck it right? Night 1 we had a lot of fun. Kabuki Warriors had us at first rolling are eyes like "Kabuki Warriors...are they fucking serious" but my roommate pointed out that they had a lot of stage presence and felt professional (compared to what the divas were when she was a kid). Their costumes in particular are fantastic. We liked Alexa Bliss as like if Margot Robbie was born prematurely and had a meth addiction. Nikki Cross was the most business exposing wrestler of the night for my roommate, but we had a lot of fun making fun of her and the "Naughty Nikki" name. Elias vs King Corbin sucked but we pretended as though it was a gay lumberjack vs white supremacist. We really liked Becky vs Baszler. Roommate loved Shayna Baszler. Probably her favorite individual wrestler. Bryan vs Sami Zayn got over huge in our living room. Especially Zayn's stalling tactics. Roommate was pissed, and it got her heavily invested. She also loved Shinsuke Nakamura's look. Ladder match I would have hated in any other circumstance, but was fun in this setting. Roommate loved Kofi, liked John, hated Jimmy and then turned around and really liked Jimmy. The Kofi eye-poke spot was our favorite spot of the night up to this point. I'll point out here that my roommate thought everyone's name was stupid. "Daniel, John, Jimmy, Corbin. They can come up with any names and this is what they pick?" Even better was the next match... Kevin Owens vs Seth Rollins I knew I was going to hate because I have never seen either guy in a singles match that I didn't hate. So I made dinner and listened to my roommate shit all over the match. She thought it was boring and it dragged and their names being Kevin & Seth was stupid. Braun vs Goldberg was over so quick I don't think she looked up from her phone other than to say OMG at Braun's size. Boneyard match brought us all the way back in. We were both going absolutely crazy for it. At first I thought it was going to be the dumbest thing ever. I initially hated the cinematic aesthetic but pretty quickly realized what I was seeing was amazing. We both agreed they should get an EMMY. Overall night 1 we had a blast. The undercard was really fun and moved around quickly. We both agreed the silence was fucking weird. Roommate thought they should add in fake crowd noise or music. But overall we really liked it. Boneyard was so great it made up for Kevin & Seth which was the only true stinker. Night 2 was more of a mixed bag. We were fucking HYPED at the start. Charlotte vs Rhea Ripley was an awesome match. We were both super into it. Roommate was blown away by some of the stiff shots and was genuinely concerned for Ripley's leg. 6:24 PST my adult roommate said out-loud while watching WrestleMania in 2020 "That one was real. You can't fake that." And I was delighted. We both thought this was the best match of either night excluding the Boneyard match. Aleister Black vs Lashley had no chance of following the opener. "At least they're big giant muscley dudes" said roommate. Yall...WWE might know what they're doing? Its eye-opening to watch this stuff with an extreme casual fan. Speaking of... Otis vs Dolph was a legit hit in our living room. Otis got over as a sympathetic figure and roommate wanted to see Dolph destroyed. The post match got legit living room applause. She HATED Dolph. And you know how just a second ago I was like "Maybe WWE knows what they're doing" well the Edge vs Orton pre-match video package ALSO got over huge. Roommate was super invested. She hated Randy Orton from the video package. I mean legit heel heat. "This guy is the biggest asshole ever and I want to see him get killed" heel heat. And then those two went out and absolutely killed the entire 2 nights. We hated this. I did my best both nights not to try and influence her. Like I knew Kevin Owens vs Seth Rollins was gonna suck when I saw it listed, but I didn't want to tell her "These dudes are the fucking worst." If she liked them, then that would be great. But she hated Kevin & Seth. But BOY did she ever hate Edge vs Orton. I was in making & eating dinner mode during this match and kept quiet while roommate watched mostly silently. Finally she just yelled "IS THIS SHIT EVER GOING TO END?" We were barely halfway through the match. Hated it so much. We spent the 2nd half screaming at the TV for them to finish. According to wikipedia, that match was 36+ minutes and it felt like 200 years. How the same company can have a night like night 1 and then follow it up with this is beyond belief. Street Profits vs Austin & Angel. Roommate immediately liked this more than Edge vs Orton. Saying about the Street Profits "Now these guys, these guys are actually good wrestlers" (she was comparing them to Edge & Orton horror show) and noted their athleticism, teamwork and "synchronization." Women's 5 way really dragged and was too predictable. My only attempted influence of the night was to make roommate cheer for Sasha Banks. Roommate struggled to maintain interest honestly. Firefly Fun House did not work for us on any level and killed whatever interest roommate had left. She thought the Fiend was like a bush-league cheap Joker spoof. She hasn't been watching for forever so she doesn't know about John Cena's rookie year or his rapper phase or his match with Bray Wyatt from 5 years ago. She has no idea who Husky Harris is. Way to self referential and weird for the sake of weird. She got up and quit watching about halfway through and never came back. Mixed bag. I would say I liked it all overall. Night 1 was awesome. The Boneyard match unforgettable. Charlotte vs Rhea Ripley was a genuine MOTYC type match but night 2 was a disappointment after that. Edge vs Orton was as bad as that Fujita/Shiozaki match where they just stared at each other. Two of the worst matches in history. Unfortunately for WWE, a lot more people watched Edge/Orton. Honestly, if Charlotte vs Ripley had replaced Seth vs Kevin on night 1 and my roommate & I only watched Night 1, we'd probably watch a few more shows. Instead she texted me earlier and asked if there are any Andre the Giant matches on the network. Yes. Yes I believe there are.

The Boneyard match was the greatest thing to happen since the moon landing.

Realistically, there are some fairly interesting candidates out there who aren't slam dunk candidates but are interesting in a world where Pillman, Hall, & Nash are getting added to the ballot and folks like Satomura & Hayabusa pull in enough votes to stay on the ballot. I remember years ago, jdw would always point to Kyoko Inoue as someone who might "deserve a shot at the ballot" and would always compare her to Arn Anderson. I don't think John would call Kyoko a strong candidate and its probable he was using the comparison to dig at Arn more so than advocate Kyoko. But now its not Arn Anderson anymore its "Arn, Tully & JJ" and Dave's adding Brian Pillman to the ballot. So I think there's room for more borderline Joshi candidates. Maki Ueda, Sato's partner in the Beauty Pair and The Black Pair (Yumi Ikeshita & Shinobu Aso) strike me as strong candidates, but I won't pretend I've done any significant research. I just know these were the big names in the 70s and AJW would run Budokan on occasion back then. Given that Sato went in the 1996 class by fiat, it seems like her tag team partner & their top rivals deserve a look. Jumbo Miyamoto? I would like to know more about Yukai Ohmori in general. I think she's awesome in the matches I've seen, but I don't know how valuable she was to the promotion compared to her 80s Peers. Although, she did win the 1986 AJW Grand Prix beating out Chigusa, Lioness & Dump. Additionally Ohmori & young Hokuto finished 2nd in the 86 Tag League behind Chigusa & Hotta. She also had a 400+ day long run with the WWWA Title in 86/87 Megumi Kudo & Shinobu Kandori seem like the obvious missing names from the 90s Interpromotional Era and Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki would seem to be right behind them. Actually Yumiko Hotta might be interesting to think about because she was well positioned for a long time. She finished 3rd in the 1987 Grand Prix ahead of Lioness & Devil & 2nd in 1988 (losing to Bull in the finals). In the 90s, Hotta won the 1994 & 1999 Grand Prix & was runner-up in 1990, 93 & 95. So during the Joshi Interpromotional Era Hotta's placement in AJW's signature singles tournament was: 2, 1, 2. Hotta had 3 longish runs with the WWWA title but it was post Prime Joshi era. She also has a Tag League win & runner up finish in the 80s and then a win & runner up finish in the 90s. Based on "Arn & Tully & JJ" and the fact that their specific run together was like 18 months before Arn & Tully jumped to WWF, the Jumping Bomb Angels & LCO seem like viable candidates. I don't know enough about Maki Ueda & the Black Pair to feel comfortable doing a ranked a top 5. But If I could include 5 act's to the ballot, it would be Ueda, Black Pair, Kudo, Kandori and the Jumping Bomb Angels. Although, I suspect Miyamoto belongs on that list, I just don't know anything about her. I don't know enough about territorial era women's wrestling to pick. Surely there's got to be some candidates? June Byers? I don't think Trish is a terrible candidate to be perfectly honest.

I mentioned this earlier in this thread but we talked about other stuff instead. But I've been thinking about it for a few days while stuck inside. What do people think about Shinobu Kandori and Megumi Kudo as candidates for the ballot? I want to do more research on both of them especially in regards to mainstream success, but they seem like easily the biggest stars of Joshi's golden era that haven't been on the ballot. I know Kandori has been on TV shows for years and has done some MMA-y stuff that I don't give a shit about but WON folks might. LLPW actually has some fairly big drawing shows. 8000 for Kandori vs Bull. Almost 8,000 at Sumo Hall in 1998 when te Joshi scene was post-peak. Part of the most memorable match/feud of Joshi's golden era. Kandori was a name on some level starting in 1986 and her 50th birthday show in 2014 drew 8,000 at Sumo Hall (Tenryu & Fujiwara were in Kandori's match, because of course they were). That's a really long run, especially for a women's wrestler, to be a relevant name. Kudo I know was a star of some magnitude, perhaps a magazine darling? She was the face of the FMW women's division which put her in the position of having featured matches on major shows drawing 20,000-50,000 fans. On an interpromotional show with all the biggest stars in Joshi that was up to that point the biggest women's wrestling card in history (DreamSlam 1), Kudo was part of the tag team main event. Her exploding barbed wire match with Toyoda at FMW's 7th anniversary show was 2nd from the top on a show that drew 33,000+ without Atsushi Onita wrestling, and is one of the most famous Japanese matches of the 90s male or female. Kudo's retirement show saw her main event against Shark Tsuchiya and sell out Yokohoma arena. Opinions may vary on their in-ring ability, but no one would argue that they were less than good. Seems like there's room for them on a ballot that is adding Brian Pillman. Gonna do some more research, maybe find some WON quotes I can quote back at Dave.

Chigusa Nagayo 1985 Satanico 1984 Ricky Morton in 1986 is a darkhorse pick. He had the singles feud with Flair and classic tag matches vs Midnights, Andersons, Ragin' & Ravishin'. Watching a 1986 Ricky Morton match he certainly looks like he's the best in the world. Invader I in 1986 is also a darkhorse pick. Awesome shit vs Al Perez, Ron Starr, Chick Starr, Eric Embry, Kamala, Brody, Sheepherders etc. Buddy Rose 1983 - Watched a bunch of Portland recently and so I wanted to throw a year out for Buddy. 1983 has the end of the Hennig feud, the Rose babyface turn and then the feud with Dynamite Kid & Rip Oliver. There are some tags & 6 mans with combinations of Buddy/Hennig/Billy Jack vs Rip Oliver/Dynamite/The Assassin that are shocking borderline MOTDC. There's also an awesome match with Chris Adams early in the year.

This is a really nice thread in these dark times. MLD is right about this place being special. Stay safe everyone.

Rob Feinstein. That's all.