S.L.L.

Really? Worse than Beth Phoenix or Snitsky? Boogeyman at least has an entertaining gimmick, understands the basic mechanics of wrestling, and seems to be trying. He's kinda limited, but he does what's expected of him with aplomb.

If they fired him, they couldn't keep burying him. Also, he could jump to TNA or ROH and then they would easily drive Vince out of business, and wrestling would be saved and everyone would celebrate while Punk hung out by a bonfire with the blue ghosts of Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Owen Hart. Or something like that.

I remembered. Did you forget/ignore the parts where I pointed to a number of other non-contenders who's qualifications are equal to or better than Mr. Ventura's who's non-candidacies aren't questioned? If Jesse goes in, what keeps Lincoln out? The fact that you ran out of good material to back up your argument with should tell you something, Jingus. It's not a legal HOF. I don't see how the lawsuit really changed anything about wrestling significantly, impressive as it was. But I don't see why it would have any real bearing on his candidacy. He called the first six Manias. Gorilla Monsoon called the first eight, but no one's calling for him to be inducted heavily on the basis of his announcing. It's basically a kayfabe accomplishment. What's the real value of what he did as an announcer? Don't just give me a resume. What about his announcing work merits HOF induction? How many of the old Starrcade's were called by Bob Caudle? Why isn't he nominated? Jesse is a legit household name. So is George Steele. We've been over this. The family from "Married...with Children" got their name from King Kong Bundy. Where's his nomination? What money did Jesse Ventura draw, what influence did he have, and what was the quality of his work? Those are the questions that need to be answered here.

Ross and Heenan were inducted for being really good at what they did, not just for working two different big shows (and really, Heenan's in mainly for his managerial work). The performing equivalent would be main eventing both Mania and Starrcade. That would actually be the more impressive feat, right? So are you ready to induct Sid? How about Luger? Nash? You're seriously advocating a dude to go into the HOF by virtue of convincing other famous wrestlers to wear feather boas? Even in a Hall that has Angle and Heyman in it, that seems ridiculous. Huh? So Rocky drawing more than Jesse ever did despite having a much shorter career makes Jesse's candidacy stronger? How does that make sense?

His mainstream fame would be a really strong bonus for another candidate, but do you really want to put a guy in just for his mainstream fame. I mean, if Jesse Ventura goes in because of mainstream fame and a political career, it's kinda hard to explain why that Abraham Lincoln guy isn't even on the ballot. If mainstream fame and a non-wrestling media career gets Ventura in, what's keeping Ted Turner off of the ballot. Or if you want a less severe example, George "The Animal" Steele is a bigger name to the mainstream than most guys in the Hall. Are you ready to induct him?

Here goes something..... PERFORMERS LIST Jun Akiyama: No Gene & Ole Anderson: There has been much hemming and hawing over these two, to the point that what they really did or didn't do seems unknowable to me. I'd abstain Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto): Need more info Red Bastien: Was he ever a draw? His style seems kinda influential, but I feel I'd need more than that Carlos Colon: A slam dunk. Only real argument against him is whether or not you want to include a guy who was only really successful on a regional level. In this case, I say absolutely, unequivocally yes. And if he doesn't get in this year because he helped cover up the Brody murder, and Benoit doesn't get the boot next year for actually murdering people, then they're all out of reasons not to induct him The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von): Is this some kind of rib? Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero: What Bix said Gran Hamada: The slippery slope says he should be in, but I say he shouldn't Volk Han: Volk's a very interesting candidate due to the unique circumstances of his career. I couldn't see voting for him, myself. Owen Hart: We are way past the point where pity votes will get him in, and he doesn't have much else going for him besides that. Curt Hennig: We are way past the point where pity votes will get him in, and he doesn't have much else going for him besides that. Chris Jericho: No Satoshi Kojima: God, no Ivan Koloff: Has a stronger case than many realize. One of the top drawing heels of his era, major Bruno rival, and, though my viewing of his stuff is limited, he's reputation as a worker has been changing for the better as of late. I'd say yes Konnan: Say what you will about him in the ring, he's too big of a draw and too influential a figure in lucha to keep him out. Easy yes. Karloff Lagarde: Kinda feel like he should've been inducted in the first class with Rene Guajardo as Los Rebeldes, but better late than never, says I Jose Lothario: Ummmmm....am I mising something here? Mark Lewin: Seems borderline to me...I'd need more info Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane): I feel stronger about the Rock 'N' Rolls, but I'd say these guys belong Bill Miller: Sounds like he was a big draw everywhere he went, and had a rep as a great worker. Part part of me wants to hear more of his story, but I think we can say yes with what we have. Fabulous Moolah: No Dick Murdoch: There should be someone out there who can tell me more about how big of a draw he was. I'd keep waiting Rey Mysterio: Slam dunk for reasons people have already mentioned Paul Orndorff: No Blue Panther: Great worker, drew when put in the position to do so, long-time main event fixture, always valuable to his promotion in any number of roles....an easy yes The Rock (Dwayne Johnson): Easiest of all possible yeses Rock & Roll Express: Yes Rick Rude: No Sabu: No Seiji Sakaguchi: Need more info other than "Inoki's little buddy" Masa Saito: Need more info Kensuke Sasaki: Kinda borderline due to his drawing power, but no Hans Schmidt: Strong draw, rep is as a great worker, I say yes Sgt. Slaughter: Borderline, I say no, but could be persuaded otherwise Jimmy Snuka: If you're going to do a recall election for Benoit, it seems kinda pointless to induct Snuka Wilbur Snyder: Borderline, need more info on his drawing power Steiner Brothers: No Sting: Could've been if certain things in his career happened differently, but as is, no Kiyoshi Tamura: Borderline, but no John Tolos: Borderline, would like to know more about his drawing power outside the Blassie feud Enrique Torres: Big draw, big influence, main event fixture when California was a major wrestling hotbed, easy yes Universo 2000: Borderline, but no. As part of Los Hermanos Dinamitas, an easy yes Rob Van Dam: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAno Villano III: Absolutely, for reasons that others have gone into great depth about elsewhere Vampiro: Borderline. I don't know about the full scope of his popularity and influence in Mexico. Seems like a guy who would be an easy yes for me if I knew a bit more Kerry Von Erich: No, but I could be persuaded otherwise Dr. Wagner Sr.: One of the hottest acts in Mexico for much of his career, I say yes Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker: Immensely popular in his heyday, long time main event fixture, he tends to get overlooked in these things, and I'm not really sure why. Yes Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods: Needs more info NON-WRESTLER LIST Lou Albano: I need to know more of his story, but I always get the sense that he's a better candidate than most people give him credit for Paco Alonso: Yes Jim Crockett Jr.: Borderline no Gary Hart: No Jerry Jarrett: Borderline no Gorilla Monsoon: I think he's actually a stronger candidate as a wrestler Don Owen: No Roy Shire: Yes Jesse Ventura: No fucking way In summation, my yes votes are: Carlos Colon Ivan Koloff Konnan Karloff Lagarde Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane) Bill Miller Rey Mysterio Blue Panther The Rock Rock & Roll Express Hans Schmidt Enrique Torres Villano III Dr. Wagner Sr. Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker Paco Alonso Roy Shire Which is problematic, since I'd only get 10 picks from the performers list, and I have 15. Wagner, Wrestling II, the Midnights, Miller, and Koloff are the easiest for me to excise for the time being, so.... Carlos Colon Konnan Karloff Lagarde Rey Mysterio Blue Panther The Rock Rock & Roll Express Hans Schmidt Enrique Torres Villano III Paco Alonso Roy Shire And there you have it.

As for the subject at hand: Jake Roberts being Jake Roberts: One of wrestling's all-time most gifted all-around performers. An amazing talent who rose to the top at a time when his...less than desirable physique would have normally prevented that. But it didn't. What did prevent it, on the other hand, was his discovery that cocaine was a hell of a drug. Hell, it seems like EVERY drug is a hell of a drug to Jake, and it left him a total wreck, completely unemployable on a long-term basis, and left guys like us sitting around, wondering what could've been.

Going to TNA wasn't a great career move for Joe, but going to WWE wouldn't have been much better. I doubt he would have made it out of developmental with his poor body, short stature, and non-existent mic skills, and he wouldn't have been able to portray Umaga nearly as well as Jamal has if he had been brought up. Being Angle's bitch toy is probably a step better than being Aaron "The Idol" Stevens' bitch toy. I dunno, maybe the Umaga gimmick would've been just what the doctor ordered for Joe. Joe's ROH stylings obviously wouldn't have flown in WWE, but he, like Danielson, Homicide, Nigel, et al, strikes me as the kind of indy dude who actually gets wrestling, but struggles between wrestling the match he wants to wrestle and the match he knows he has to wrestle. Maybe putting him in a promotion with actual sane standards for what wrestling is all about would get him out of his current rut. Or maybe he'd just get totally exposed as a big fish in a small pond. Who can be sure? In fairness, Umaga is way better in the wild savage role than I'd imagine Joe would be. If Joe signed with WWE tomorrow, I really don't know what they'd do with him. New Headshrinkers, maybe? Either way, staying in ROH would've been a better career move than Red Roostering himself in TNA. Oh, and incidentally,.....HAPPY BIRTHDAY, COX!

So true. And along those general lines.... Vince Russo cons himself into thinking that being talked about is more important than (or at least equal to) actually making money: He's certainly not the only wrestling power figure ever to do it, but he may be the only one to more or less build his entire booking philosophy around it. Years after WCW went out of business, he still insists the David Arquette winning the WCW Title was a rousing success. It got WCW on the cover of USA Today! Clearly, that kind of mainstream publicity is way more important than actually making money. Right? I mean, in a lot of ways, it's just an extension of the Monday Night Wars mindset, where winning the weekly ratings battle was deemed more important than most everything else, even though there's not much money to be made in TV ratings compared to PPV, touring, and merchandise. But Russo really epitomized the worst excesses of that mindset, and he really didn't even drive up ratings that much.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...........I have a sig. After the Benoit tribute/anti-tribute shows, a close friend of mine made the comment that the best possible thing the WWE could do in this situation would be to open the following RAW with some voice-over guy (preferably Vince himself) dramatically stating "Previously, on Raw...", and then showing the limo explosion and just going from there. I couldn't agree more. For a long time, I've been saying that in the long run, the death of kayfabe in wrestling will be a good thing. At the time, what I meant was that it would free them up creatively, as they would no longer have to make things seem "real", creating limitless possibilities for how they could book things in the future. But now, I see a greater benefit, one in which the whole CIA/Mafia/Porn "secret society" aspect of it that is as responsible as anything for driving all these guys to their graves is eliminated once and for all. They've broken away from kayfabe for 15+ years, but they've never REALLY broken away in the truest sense of the term, and I don't know if that makes things better or worse. But if there's a light at the end of the Benoit nightmare tunnel of Hell, it's that Vince has inadvertantly created an opportunity to destroy kayfabe once and for all. I can't imagine he'll follow through with it, but I can dream, can't I? Either way, this is gonna be a can't miss Raw.

This line.... ...which is verifiably false, and only believed by those on the internet with a fear of a black, fat, sweaty planet, makes me think it isn't, though maybe it's just WWE subtly burying Henry to the media. I'm guessing not, though. Sure they are, Dave.

Brian Pillman cons the conmen: For one reason or another, booker Kevin Sullivan, possibly in league with Eric Bischoff, becomes enamored with the idea of tricking everyone - including the boys in the back - into thinking that his feud with Brian Pillman is a SH00T~!. Pillman gets in on the fun, calling Sullivan "bookerman" on a live PPV broadcast, and generally drawing the worked shoot ire of Eric Bischoff. To further work everyone who wasn't in on the angle, Pillman convinces Bischoff to give him a real release from his contract to make it look like Bischoff really fired him over his SH00T~! antics on TV. Bischoff complied, thinking this would really hammer home the notion that this was a SH00T~!. Having received his release from his WCW contract, Pillman immediately jumps ship to the WWF. Amazingly, Bischoff and Sullivan are never totally dissuaded from the notion that this particular brand of worked shoot angles are a bad idea, and Sullivan immediately gets to work on another one. As an indirect result, Chris, Nancy, and Daniel Benoit are dead. Oops.

You say that like you actually weren't expecting us to be conspiring.

MVP is black, it's different. I'm a little worried that he still tacitly defended Liger earlier in the thread, though. These days, it seems foolish to be so hard on blacks while giving a pass to the Red Chinese peril. It's very short-sighted of him. Yeah but the Japanese were on the right side in WWII Chinese, Japanese, those slant eyes are all the same. Can't be trusted.

MVP is black, it's different. I'm a little worried that he still tacitly defended Liger earlier in the thread, though. These days, it seems foolish to be so hard on blacks while giving a pass to the Red Chinese peril. It's very short-sighted of him.

Clearly, there is no place for flashy attire in wrestling.

1. Finlay - There are a couple of guys fighting for this spot, and it could change any given week. I've been leaning on Cena as best in the world - never mind the US - for a few months now. But honestly, if I had to watch any active US based wrestler RIGHT NOW, it has to be Finlay. He's been delivering really strongly in the last month or so, and his greatness is the most immediate to me, so I chose him. The addition of the Celtic Knot as a finisher is a nice touch. And of course, there's still the stiffness, the selling, the heeling, and the usage of a midget as a foreign object. The only thing he can't do is convincingly claim that there isn't a steroid problem in wrestling. 2. Matt Hardy - Matt's been so consistently good lately that it's amazing. He's busting out high-end matches almost weekly now. Great punches, great babyface fire, great selling, and a well-protected finisher that he's done a great job pulling off as a Diamond Cutter-esque "he can hit it from anywhere" type move. He's done a fine job replacing that dude who iced his family as the guy you can count on you deliver the match of the week pretty much every week. Just a treat to watch. 3. John Cena - For reasons that have been discussed to death. He hasn't delivered big since the Khali matches, but that hasn't been that long, in fairness. The Lashley feud doesn't set my world on fire, and Cena vs. face matches don't really compel me (though the Michaels matches were really, really good), but he's delivered huge in PPV main events this year, and that sticks with me longer than I imagine miscellaneous great Finlay free TV matches will. 4. MVP - Possibly the best heel in wrestling right now. Has done a fine job in building the big boot as the centerpiece of his offense. The Playmaker worked as a finisher when his gimmick was that he sucked, but now that that's no longer the case, it seems a bit out of place, an unseemly reminder that he was once a shitty indy dude. But it's hard for me to complain about him otherwise. 5. The Miz - With MVP gaining internet acceptance, Miz defaults to the deliberately overlooked great American worker. Being pushed as a face in ECW could change this for the worse, but to this point, he's been doing everything right in the ring. Great cocky heel, though that was undercut somewhat by becoming more "serious", but still brought the goods with great offense and selling. I haven't seen enough recent ROH to put any of them up there right now. Nigel seems like the best of that bunch, far as I can tell.

TMZ reports the death of John Kronus TMZ isn't exactly The New York Times, but when the death of John Kronus gets even that much media coverage, it seems really, really foreboding for Vince McMahon.

Considering I have never heard any variation of "we are in the business of putting smiles on people's faces" before, and now EVERYONE is using it, I get the sense that it's a lot in both regards.

I'd like to take part in this. I'll send you a PM in a second, Loss.

AAA: Rey Mysterio Sr. & Jr. vs. Fuerza & Juventud Guerrera (WWA World Tag Team & Mexican National Tag Team Titles Match) - 3/2/1995 AJW: The Crush Gals vs. Jaguar Yokota & Devil Masami (Tag League the Best Finals) - 9/1984 All Japan: Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa - 9/1/1990 APW: Michael Modest vs. Christopher Daniels - 1/15/1999 AULL: Solar I, Heavy Metal, & Dos Caras Jr. vs. Negro Navarro & Villanos IV & V - 11/2/2006 AWA: Midnight Rockers vs. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers (Cage Match) - 2/25/1986 BattlARTS: Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda - 8/29/1999 BJPW: Ryuji Yamakawa vs. Tomoaki Honma (BJW Death Match Title Match) - 6/20/1999 Chikara: Milano Collection AT & Skayde vs. The Kings of Wrestling (Tag League Grand Prix Finals for the Campeones de Parejas) - 2/26/2006 CMLL/EMLL: El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas (Mask vs. Hair) - 9/19/1997 CZW: The Necro Butcher vs. Toby Klein - 1/13/2007 ECW: Terry Funk vs. Sabu (No Rope Barbed Wire Match for the ECW World Title) - 8/9/1997 ECWA: Low-Ki vs. American Dragon - 7/21/2001 FMW: Atsushi Onita vs. Terry Funk (Exploding Barbed Wire Land Mine Match) - 5/5/1993 GAEA: Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura (AAAW Title Match) - 5/14/2000 Global: Lightning Kid vs. Jerry Lynn (2/3 Falls Finisher Match for the GWF Light Heavyweight Title) - 12/27/1991 Hamada's UWF: El Gran Hamada & Perro Aguayo vs. Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata - 3/10/1991 IWA Japan: Head Hunter A vs. Head Hunter B (Glass Death Match) - 5/1/1995 IWA Mid South: Samoa Joe vs. The Necro Butcher - 6/11/2005 IWRG: El Dandy vs. Negro Navarro - 11/18/2001 JWA: Giant Baba vs. The Destroyer (NWA International Title Match) - 3/5/1969 JWP: Wasn't the Thunderqueen match officially a JWP match? If so, that. Otherwise, I'm not sure. Maeda's UWF 2.0 (1988-1990): Tetsuo Nakano vs. Masakatsu Funaki - 7/24/1989 Memphis/USWA: Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (No DQ AWA Southern Title & Leaving Town vs. Hair & Wife's Hair Match) - 12/30/1985 Michinoku Pro: Kaientai D*X vs. Delfin/Hamada/Tiger Mask/Yakushiji/Hoshikawa - 10/10/1996 Monterrey: El Hijo del Santo vs. Blue Panther - 4/9/2000 New Japan: Jushin Thunder Liger vs. El Samurai (Top of the Super Junior Tournament Finals) - 4/30/1992 NWA (JCP 1985-1988): Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA (I Quit Cage Match for the NWA US Title) - 11/28/1985 NOAH: Yoshinobu Kanemaru & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Jushin Thunder Liger & Minoru Tanaka - 4/7/2002 OMEGA: The Hardy Boys vs. The Serial Thrillaz (OMEGA Tag Team Titles Match) - 1/29/1999 RINGS: Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Tsuyoshi Kosaka - 6/27/1998 ROH: Joe/Whitmer/Pearce/Steel/Danielson/Homicide vs. Hero/Castagnoli/Necro/Webb/Kingston (Cage of Death Match) - 7/15/2006 TNA: Chris Harris vs. James Storm (Texas Death Match) - 5/13/2007 Toryumon/Toryumon X/T2P: The Great Sasuke vs. Magnum TOKYO (NWA Middleweight Title Tournament Finals) - 2/7/1999 U-STYLE: Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Hiroyuki Ito (U-STYLE Title Tournament Semifinals) - 8/18/2004 UWA: El Hijo del Santo vs. Brazo de Oro (Mask vs. Hair Match) - 1/13/1991 UWFI: Nobuhiko Takada vs. Super Vader (Best of the World Tournament Finals) - 8/18/1994 WAR: Ultimo Dragon vs. Chris Jericho - 7/7/1995 WCW (1989-2001): Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio Jr. (WCW Cruiserweight Title vs. Mask Match) - 10/26/1997 WWF (1981-2002): Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match) - 3/23/1997 WWE (2002-present): Rey Mysterio vs. Eddie Guerrero - 6/23/2005 Zero One: Ohtani/Omori/Murakami vs. Takayam/Sato/Yokoi - 1/19/2007

You're confusing cause and effect. Problem isn't 2.9 counts. Problem is the way they're used. It's not the idea, it's the execution. It's the effect. The cause is an ass-backwards method of building a match based around "big match" spots strung together to elicit reactions usually associated with "big matches", instead of working an actual big match with actual compelling characters who establish an actual reason to be actually emotionally invested in their conflict, and then using those "big match" spots appropriately to best convey the story to the audience. Pointing to great 90's All Japan matches with 2.9 count sections misses the point. Problem isn't the use of 2.9 counts. Problem is using them poorly. It's a bit like trying to defend "Roadhouse" from people complaining about the acting by pointing out that "Citizen Kane" also had actors in it. It's a rather blatant misreading of the complaint, and it feels like something done deliberately so you wouldn't have to actually address the issues at hand. Probably not intentional on your part, but it seems like that's what's going on there.

It's gotta be different drugs, though. Before, Jeff channeled his sloppiness to blow all his offense. Now he's channeling it to hideously maul his opponents. The Whisper in the Wind went from a move that he'd fuck up and miss to a move he'd fuck up and crush his opponent's face with. It's like he's a tiny, flippy, raver Hansen.

I really, really don't buy that. But then again, I believe our opinions differ. I haven't enjoyed a Kobashi match in years. Judgment Day, SNME, One Night Stand, and Vengeance were all weak shows with one or two good matches each at the most. SNME and Vengeance had no good matches. Calling Judgment Day "weak" is probably a bit harsh, but I agree with the others. That said, their free TV stuff has been through the roof lately. That's the refuge from modern-day puro right there. Smackdown alone has probably produced more high-end matches so far this year than the entire nation of Japan put together. Incidentally, Spunk, I just use "puro" because "Japanese professional wrestling" is just too unwieldy of a phrase to use regularly. I agree with your general point, it's just a matter of function. I'm long-winded enough as it is.

Maybe not you specifically. We painted the situation with a pretty broad brush. I'm sure there are still guys like you who genuinely prefer what's going on in Japan to what's going on in the WWE, and are capable of developing their own opinions about what they like and dislike. And there's still bits and pieces of stuff going on in Japan that are worth watching. I don't think that's an unreasonable opinion to hold. Your arguments are sensible and grounded in reality. Then there are other people who hold similar opinions, but present them in the form of dishonest, inconsistent, inaccurate, condescending rants that speak less to problems with their opinions and more to problems with themselves. Not everyone who likes current puro should be lumped in with that group, but as they say, great minds think alike, and not-so-great minds do, too.