ohtani's jacket

I think you look for booking and storytelling too much in UWF. Takada beat Fujiwara in October the year before, so the February match was just a payback. Takada got another win over Fujiwara in October that year. Really, the only clear booking pattern there was that year was that Takada went down, Funaki went up and Maeda stayed strong against everyone. Fujiwara probably wasn't the No.2 native, but they protected him (or he protected himself.) If you watch the shows through to the finale, they really had no clear direction other than having Maeda beat Funaki. If they'd continued into 1991, I guess Funaki would've challenged him again, but who knows. Fujiwara's matches were better than Jumbo's for mine, and certainly better than the dizzying lows that UWF-i Takada reached. I don't see who in Japan was on Fujiwara's level in 1992. For the record, Backlund didn't carry Takada. I don't know how anybody can watch that fight and think that's the case. As for Casas in Japan, that's a bit of a duck out of water scenario. I can't really think of too many luchadores who've worked Japan well. Unfortunately, the Casas/Liger matches from UWA were never taped.

That wasn't a shock win. Fujiwara was the No.2 native that year and Takada did a fair number of jobs. The guy they were pushing in Takada's role that year was Funaki, and Fujiwara worked the same way against him. He always worked defensively against strikers. Anyway, Fujiwara smokes Takada as a worker like there's no tomorrow. Every single one of Fujiwara's UWF matches are good, regardless of who the opponent is. Only a handful of Takada's worked shoots are good. There is no big radar for UWF, PWFG or even Showa era New Japan compared to All Japan, so it's not surprising that Fujiwara slipped through the cracks. Elite guys miss the radar all the time. Stuff doesn't get watched, like Memphis, WoS or PWFG, or doesn't get reappraised like Dustin Rhodes in WCW. If you read Dave's comments on early 90s CMLL for example, there's a ton of great workers that Dave didn't get or appreciate. Obviously, there's a fine line between the mentality that Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger, Eddie and Benoit are all elite workers and the attitude that newly discovered workers, but if people didn't dig into the past a little they'd be no new movies to enjoy, no good music to discover. Pro-wrestling wouldn't be worth much as a hobby. People change and want different things out of their graps. Work dates and is no longer fresh. The idea that Takada is a great shoot style worker, for example, is a completely dated idea. Oh, and the one really good match Dynamite Kid had in England was against Marty Jones. The Rocco matches could've been great but never had proper finishes.

I like Regal a lot, but his WCW run was a disappointment as far as matches go. Aside from Larry Z match from Saturday Night and the Finlay matches, there's not much else except for maybe the Windham match and I guess some of the Benoit stuff. Early WoS Finlay is extremely good. I'm talking about the '82-84 period. It wasn't until the late 80s that he started getting sluggish. He was pretty damn athletic in his early years and earned the nickname "Fit." Davey Boy was far better than Dynamite Kid in his first few years as a pro. Both of them got screwed up by leaving Britain. I have a hard time believing that DK was a good influence on DBS in their tag team years. Haven't watched a Benoit match since the murders, so I don't really have an opinion about him anymore. My enjoyment of Lawler depends on his opponent. For some reason, I prefer Memphis studio stuff to the arena matches.

Might have to change my Jannetty/DBS answer, because I just watched some early Davey Boy Smith and the only British worker I've seen look as good at a similar age was Marty Jones.

I dunno. I've watched a fair bit of Fujinami vs. UWA workers recently and he was as workrate happy as any other junior. Stick Fujinami in a Tiger Mask and see what happens. That's the thing that's always bothered me about Sayama criticism. That was not an easy gimmick to play.

Well, there's really no Joshi matches left to watch.

Well, they were exciting matches for the time, and you simply cannot underestimate how popular Tiger Mask was, and still is, in Japan. Neither Sayama nor Dynamite were particularly suited to the feud they worked in New Japan. Sayama's calling was to do worked shoots with Yoshiaki Fujiwara, and Dynamite Kid's calling was to stay in Europe and work a million matches with Marty Jones, but they wound up in a NJPW ring trying to do something different from what Inoki was on top. Whatever problems the DK/TM feud had were problems all juniors matches had at the time. I know people will say Fujinami was better or Gran Hamada, but they were the same. It's just not that good a style.

Probably not. I'm not overly high on his NJPW stuff, but he was the best worker in the original UWF, and his stuff from the time he left NJPW in '89 to the last few years of PWFG is untouchable. Difficult to say without their UWA work, though I guess it's kinda telling that Santo never looked as good as he did in UWA unless he was working Casas. Casas made a smart decision to go to CMLL in '92 and ended up working two of the most memorable feuds of the 90s with Dandy and Santo. Fantastic rudo and a hell of a second too, if you ever get the chance to see him in the corner. I'm not a huge fan of his offence, but he was a hell of a performer. Santo was, and is, a formula worker, and sometimes I'm surprised by just how well he excutes that formula, but other times I think he mails it in as much as any other person who's ever been accused of doing so. I think I'll go with Arn here. Barry was never a great big match worker to me, and inconsistent as a TV wrestler. Arn, on the other hand, grew steadily better from 1990 until 1992, when he had one of the best years of any worker I've seen. Barry probably had more good matches, but I'd wager that Arn a higher number of good performances. Marty Jones. Not even close, though Dynamite Kid was awesome in the match they had together. He really should've stayed in Europe. Would rather watch a marathon of Dusty promos than watch either of these guys work. Dusty is far more disappointing for me in the sense that his promos are so good but I can't mark out and enjoy his matches. I like Regal better as a worker, but Finlay has a higher number of good matches, due to his WoS run and more successful WWE run. I'd rather watch Jannetty, but Davey Boy Smith got more of his career. If Jannetty had been more like Robert Gibson, this would be an easy pick, but despite not liking DBS in general, I feel he was better. I was impressed with that Vader feud in '93. Foley. Never seen an Onita match worth a damn. Man, this is a comparison that no longer means much to people. I'll go with Takako. LCO were insanely overrated. Takako's rise from '92-95 was a lot of fun, and when she finally got to play the heel character that she wanted to be in the first place, she was just as charismatic as Shimoda.

Did The Honky Tonk Man actually say that?

Uh, Steamboat was constantly one of the top workers in WCW.

August IWRG Avisman vs. Trauma II, IWRG Intercontinental Lightweight Championship, 8/16/09 This was OK. They put each other in interesting holds, and the selling was good, particularly from Avisman, who reminds me of this angry little kid I went to school with. The problem with these guys is that every time they work the mat, they put each other in submission holds. When they can't get a submission, they release the hold without being told to break. It doesn't make sense to give up position in a wrestling match. They'd be better off countering their way out of a hold, or better yet, countering the hold before it can be hooked into a submission. The annoying thing about all the resets is that you know that every single time they return to the neutral position that they're going to swap positions on the mat. So what you get is a bunch of highspots on the mat and some weak transitions. You almost get the feeling that these guys want to be maestros before their time. The difference between these younger guys and Terry and Navarro is that Terry and Navarro are looking to hurt each other. When Terry or Navarro release a hold, their selling tells the story. They're bastards, who've mastered the art of hurting each other. The second fall was better in this respect, as Avisman went after Trauma's injured shoulder, but the other thing I couldn't understand about this match is why Avisman went over. Trauma had a kayfabe reason for losing the belt, but he'd only just won it. IWRG booking just doesn't make sense. The finish was awful as they threw in a couple of unnecessary topes and Avisman wrenched the arm about twenty times before Trauma would submit. Was that supposed to make Trauma look tough? That was ridiculous. IWRG - Festival de Máscaras - 8/20/09 Cerebro Negro Dr. Cerebro Vs Orito El Panterita This was a tidy match, but I was expecting at least one spectacular sequence. Freelance was strangely subdued. Los Misioneros de la Muerte El Signo Negro Navarro Vs Los Temerarios Black Terry Shu el Guerrero This won't be to everyone's tastes, but I was really enjoying it until IWRG decided they'd had enough and blinded me with white light. The Terry vs. Navarro feud has morphed into Bill Dundee vs. Jerry Lawler. Both guys have developed amazing punches, adding another dimension to the best feud in wrestling. It's a shame that lucha doesn't do loser leaves town matches, as that would be the match of the decade. Terry lost his hair to Chico Che on the 16th, so now he truly looks as craggy and windswept as the great Western films and the directors who made them. He had a cut above his eye, which Signo did an expert job of reopening. Signo can't move like he used to, but he's still pretty useful with his mitts. The match itself was bare and minimalistic, just the way it ought to be. The match wasn't about matwork as much as it was about hurting people. Signo had his old mask on, where the mouthpiece makes it look like he's grinning the whole time. Shu worked an arm injury, so naturally Terry tried evening the score, but he had a tough time dealing with Signo's wrist strength. With some of the reverse holds they did, it looked like Signo was laughing at him. Navarro, as usual, was on another level. The finish was bullshit, like it usually is in Terry/Navarro matches, but Navarro is untouchable. I've seen some unbeatable workers in my time, guys who only ever lose because it's a work, but Navarro is on a whole nutha level. Now that he can throw rights and lefts equally well, he's just untouchable. Be warned: this was a slow match. There was a time when Signo and Shu el Guerrero would've torn it up in their opening mat exchange, but not anymore. Still, if you like selling and killer holds, here's this week's recommendation. Homenaje al Matemático This was a trophy presentation to honour Matemático's 40th year in wrestling. Very cool. You're better off watching this than the main event.

Are you sure it's not clipped?

Here's a question -- has there ever been a better Japanese pro-wrestler than Fujiwara? El Hijo del Santo or Negro Casas? Barry Windham or Arn Anderson? Marty Jones or Dynamite Kid?

Steamboat was pretty good at getting fired up. His WCW run from '91 to '94 is full of asskicking performances. The most cringeworthy thing I can remember Rey doing was that promo they made him do after Hogan turned heel.

Sorry, didn't read your post properly. I'm not sure that the Greatest Wrestlers Ever poll was all that impartial, but certainly "characterisation" can be used as a means of judging workers. I'd still argue, however, that you need to find some common ground. If you simply prefer Tito's work or Bret's characterisation, that's fine from your own point-of-view, but it's not really enough if you want to make a case for Tito & Bret > Rey. To be honest, I'm not really sure who I think is the better babyface out of those three, but if I were to think about it, first I'd have to wipe out all of my biases. Then I'd try to ignore the booking and the different positions those workers were in, and try to find something they all in common.

If only Ray could cap screen shots. Such a nice touch.

If Rey's lowered himself in WWF, what was that crap he was doing running around without a mask in WCW? Or that crap he did in Mexico before he signed with the WWE?

I'm not sure if I understand your point. Comparing guys working in different environements is what people do all the time. If you voted in the SC Greatest Wrestler poll, which I believe you did, you had to engage in ranking different wrestlers working different styles and working different promotions. So if you indeed sent in a ballot, you're contradicting yourself here. I didn't vote based on who the better babyface was, I simply voted for what I thought the best matches were. That was a matches poll, not a workers poll. If someone says Rey Mysterio Jr. is the greatest WWE babyface worker ever and another guy reckons it's Tito Santana, that would actually make for a pretty cool argument, but I don't think it's as simple as listing matches.

Well, stunningrover, I told you an Eddie Guerrero fan might disagree. I've seen most of the Guerreros stuff in Mexico and Chavo Sr. was clearly the best of the Guerreros. Eddie was never really a "lucha style worker." He always looked like a US pro-wrestler to me. I don't think the Gringos stuff holds up compared to other heel trios, and I don't see how working lucha brawls was a problem when so many other great 90s feuds had awesome brawling trios matches. I also think that working NJPW moves in AAA matches is a strike against Eddie, at least from my perspective. It's understandable if people like Rey and Eddie's early work, but there seems to be an inbuilt prejudice that they can't have done their best work in the WWE, because it's the WWE and the WWE has always been a shitty promotion work-wise. I wouldn't felt that way too had I not watched a ton of lucha lately and been involved in the WWF and WCW projects at smarkschoice. As for judging one babyface against another, Tito was a Ricky Steamboat type face, Bret was a wannabe Gretsky who thought he was a role model and Rey Mysterio has been an underdog. How do you compare the three? There's not a lot of common ground there.

Every great worker is overrated to one extent or another. Take Eddie for example. He had two really good periods, WCW in 1997 and WWE 2004-05. The rest you could nitpick. If you ask me he wasn't particularly good in Mexico, his early US babyface work was weak, his Japanese work was a mixed bag and he struggled when he first joined WWE. Eddie Guerrero fans won't see it that way, but the point is that you can critique anything. Rey's WWE work, of which I've seen the stuff recommended to me, is better than his AAA, ECW, WAR and WCW stuff. Wrestling fans always want to compare workers against each other when often there's no connection. I don't really know how you judge a Tito Santana performance from 1984 or 1985 with a Rey Mysterio performance from twenty years later. Tito was in an awesome feud with Greg Valentine. A wrestling feud. The type of feud that forms the foundation of most people's fandom. Rey is feuding over shit that wouldn't make it past the writer's table on a network drama. Hell, it's such crap that the writer's would be too embarrassed to bring it up. So, I think the only way to judge Mysterio is whether he's better now than he was in '96 and '97. Athletically, many people would say no. Match wise, I'd say yes.

I'm not a big fan of Mysterio Jr., but the other day I watched him have an excellent match with Finlay from 2006. It was a storyline match much like Rey's feud with Eddie Guerrero in 2005. I couldn't give a shit about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, and I didn't need Cole reminding us that every...single...second...of...the...match was about Rey's problems with Vicki Guerrero, but it was an excellent match by any standards. All of the Vicki Guerrero crap was annoying in the same manner that all of the emotion of that Unforgiven cage match that Dylan loves is annoying because the commentators never stop ramming it down your throat, but it's not the workers fault that the commentators can't or won't shut up. But more to the point, there is nothing good about Marufuji.

How can you say Rey's WWE stuff is overrated and have anything good to say about Marufuji?

That's because all Vader matches are the same.

I don't know the answer to this question. I'd have to watch it again. I do know that I like the Midnight Express more than I ever did before after doing this project, and in particular I like Bobby Eaton more than I ever did before, so I might be going on an outdated memory. I never cared much for Smothers or Armstrong as workers and hated the Southern Boys gimmick, but I watched one of their TV matches before the end of the balloting and really enjoyed it, so maybe the GAB match is OK. From memory, it wasn't laid out as well as Midnights vs. Rock "n" Roll Express or some of the other tags they had that year.