ohtani's jacket

PERRO AGUAYO VS. UNIVERSO 2000, hair vs. mask, CMLL El Jucio Final, 3/30/01 So here's the deal: 2009 is almost over, and I'm no closer to figuring out what the best matches of the decade were, so from now until whenever we drop this project, Raging Noodles and I will search for the likely candidates. Judging by the wrestling this decade, we'll probably watch anything and everything. First up is a mascara vs. cabellera match from Perro Aguayo's lengthy retirement tour. RAGING NOODLES: Wow, this was far better than I was expecting it to be. Crowd heat is incredible for this, and Perro looks like he belongs more in a wheel chair than he does in the ring. But even though Perro looks like he could barely walk, I'm surprised to see him taking bumps off of Universo's offense in the early portion of the match. Universo tries that spot where you fall back and monkey flip a guy over you, but Perro just stomps him in the face. Smart man. Perro then clotheslines Universo to the outside, and follows up with a tope! I would be dishonest if I did not admit that it might be the worst tope in the history of Arena Mexico, but it was gusty as hell and made Aguayo look like an insane old crippled man that doesn't give a fuck. So, that was awesome and I loved it. Mascara Año 2000 is Universo's second, and he starts to beat the shit out of Aguayo. While this is going on, Aguayo's second Villano III, is furious and starts to argue with the referee Tigre Hispano. Back in the ring, Universo misses a charge in the corner and takes a great back body drop bump and then takes another one of those to the outside. Man, Perro seems to be in a lot of pain yet he still busts out la silla spot. Some more interference from Mascara Año 2000, and Hispano attempts to restrain a furious Villano III. Whoever laid out this match deserves all the credit in the world for how great of a spectacle it's turning out to be. Back in the ring, Universo attempts to submit Aguayo and then gives Aguayo a back body drop which must have felt like hell for Aguayo. Aguayo is sent out to the floor, and Universo accidentally wipes out his brother with a tope. Perro starts counting Universo out, but Tigre Hispano continues to be a dick and refuses to count Universo out. This is really entertaining. A rudo referee breaking up the rhythm of a Santo/Panther match in Monterrey is really stupid. But this stuff here is really smart and it's working. Perro is now in control and starts to unleash some of his usual offense to try to put Universo away. Perro does a nice samoan drop and hits a big senton off the ropes for a cover. Perro continues to be in charge until Mascara Año 2000 trips Aguayo and Universo hits a low blow on Aguayo. Villano III is awesome as the second, and his reactions to all this interference is incredible. Universo goes to the top rope for a big move, and Aguayo moves out the way and quickly goes for a pinfall. Tigre Hispano refuses to count up to three, and Dr. Alfonso Morales screams that it might be arthritis that's preventing him from making the three count. That was hilarious. Aguayo knees him in the face and hits an elbow drop, and Hispano refuses to count to three again. Perro Aguayo can't believe this and is flabbergasted at all this bullshit. Perro's acting and body language has always been one of his strongest points. Probably the best thing he does in this match is the masterful job of being able to convey all his emotions to the Arena Mexico crowd. Universo fails to clothesline Perro, but hits Tigre Hispano and the ringside commissioner orders Tigre Hispano to the back. Aguayo is awesome at stirring up the audience to chant for Hispano to leave the ring. In the brief moments where there is no referee, Mascara Año 2000 just pops inside the ring and both brothers double team Aguayo. Roberto "El Guero" Rangel comes out! Awesome, Rangel blocks a martinete attempt from Universo and orders Mascara Año 2000 to the back. Behind Rangel's back, Aguayo hits a low blow for a nearfall. After a couple of more false finishes from Aguayo, and with the crowd chanting "Si Se Puede!", Aguayo finally sets him up for La Lanza. He hits it, does a huge fun celebration and is in a state of ecstasy about it. But when he makes the cover, a "fan" with a Pierroth mask, throws a drink in his face to blind him. As soon as Universo recovers, he picks up the blinded Aguayo and hits the piledriver for the win. Dr. Alfonso Morales is screaming about this injustice and is furious at everything that has taken place. He starts interrogating the commissioner, Roberto Rangel, Mascara Año 2000, and screams at Universo 2000 that he couldn't beat Aguayo like a man. Morales also goes on to accuse him of getting one of his family members to throw the drink at Aguayo's face. Morales is awesome as a pissed off, truth seeking journalist trying to get to the bottom of this conspiracy against Perro Aguayo! The audience appears to be shocked and appalled at seeing an unconscious Perro getting his head shaved. As much as I love Perro Aguayo, he was so limited and broken down at this point, that it's a miracle to see how awesome this turned out to be. Universo 2000 deserves a lot of the credit for carrying Aguayo along the way, and I would love to know who was in charge of booking all the smoke and mirrors bullshit. OHTANI'S JACKET: Eight years ago, I wouldn't have watched this match. Nowadays, I figure that if anyone can make a CMLL match work it's a 55 year-old Perro Aguayo and a 37 year-old Universo 2000. It's not that I automatically distrust anyone under the age of 40, it's just that a match like this needs a whole lot of bullshit and a whole lot of heat, and these guys spent forever working that style. The Arena Mexico is set-up these days, the way it's lit, and even the way they shoot the matches, means you have to be a big match worker to pull this shit off. Many of the lucha classics would look out of place in present day Arena Mexico. They'd be better suited to smaller venues like Arena Coliseo. It's possible that past workers could get heat for their rudo tactics, but not at the same pace. There used to be an unbearable tension to the way a rudo would brutalise the technico. These days, they've filled in the "down time" with crooked refs and over involved seconds. You need to be larger than life to stick out from all the bullshit, and that was always one of Perro's strengths. A lot of workers are poor at playing to the crowd, even great workers who've been in the business for decades. Blue Panther, for example, is hopelessly bad, but a lot of other masked luchadores struggle with this as well. Perro was a guy who got over by channeling his intensity into a confrontational style. Win or lose, he set about making an impression, and was able to project that intensity onto the entire arena. 55 year-old Perro was difficult to watch at times, but he worked this match like he would've ten years earlier. In fact, the booking was straight out of 1992, right down to the heel ref being ejected and Rangel taking his place. I guess it's no surprise that two guys who headlined "Pena style" main events in the early 90s were so successful in this match. In many ways, it was the culmination of not only Aguayo's feud with Los Hermanos Dinamita, but a bookend to the Pena driven boom of the the early 90s. Matches like these are full of bullshit, but when it comes to booking, there's good bullshit and bad bullshit. The bullshit here was phenomenal. The key to the match's success was that they booked it as a single fall contest. If they'd booked it as 2/3 falls, they would've had to chop up the fifteen minutes and overbook the finish to each fall, similar to wager matches of late. With a single fall, it meant they could work a simple match where Perro kept having his offence cut off and was a step closer to being screwed over. But the clincher was the finish. I have no idea what the feeling was at the time, but watching the match it seemed just as likely that Universo would lose his mask. I've got to admit that I had no idea whether the fan was a plant or not, but Perro taking the martinete on his back neck came as a complete shock. To have a legend like Perro Aguayo laid out like that is just about the ballsiest finish I've seen in lucha. Aguayo deserves credit for jobbing like that. It was only his second apuestas loss in fifteen years. Granted, he'd had the better of Los Hermanos Dinamita over the years, but it was an awesome way to put over Universo. I know there's been a reappraisal of Los Hermanos Dinamita in recent years, but up until now I haven't really bought it. I like their early 90s stuff, but I don't think they were good in the 80s. Watching the bullshit here, it kind of dawned on me that Universo was better than any other point in his career. The work here was pretty basic, but his bulked up frame made him a tougher looking proposition than his prime years. I think this match turned me into a Capos fan.

Policeman vs. Centella de Oro, hair vs. hair, Arena Puebla 56th Anniversary show, 7/20/09 I only saw the second and third falls of this on Tercera Caida, but from the looks of things it's one of the better matches this year. It was given about as much build-up as you can possibly get for an Arena Puebla match, starting with Policeman feigning a foul and Centella de Oro being unjustly disqualified. This was followed up by a couple of weeks of legit fouls, and really, there's two things that lead to a wager match. One is a bunch of mask ripping and the other is a kick to the balls. Of course this was a modern hair match, so there was no blood. Tercera Caida showed footage of their match from last year where Policeman bladed, but I guess you can't do that shit on TV anymore. So what you're left with is a little bit of brawling and selling and a greater focus on moves. This is a trend that began in the mid-90s, so I won't go on my usual rant about how shitty this decade has been, but the problem with a bloodless hair match is that it takes away all the hate and animosity and leaves you with a high stakes singles match. There's two ways to look at that, I suppose. You can either say it's not a great brawl, there's no blood, it's not a real hair match, or you can give up caring. Personally, I thought they did a pretty good job for two guys who are usually part of the opening card attractions. The match was heated and reasonably well paced. It was kinda obvious that they're fun trios workers and not exactly great at singles matches, but this was a legit attempt at an epic Puebla match. To make a CMLL match epic these days, you need a whole bunch of bullshit happening at ringside. The bullshit here was pretty good. Espíritu Maligno was Policeman's second and spent the entire match trying to cost Centella de Oro his hair, which is the booker's way of stirring up controversy without anyone getting the shit beaten out of them. The contrast between this and the eventual DVDVR Lucha set, where guys bladed at the drop of a hat in dimly hit, smoke filled arenas probably says something about the difference between the 80s and the 00s. One of the most annoying things about lucha these days is that the fans closest to the ring are self-aware that they're on TV. The fans who'd lose their shit over rudo interference are in the cheap seats, fenced off like they're at an ice hockey game. Anyway, the coolest thing about this match (and the coolest thing I've seen in lucha all year) is that after it was over, Centella de Oro put Policeman in a bunch of holds to make sure he had his hair cut. Amusingly enough, it was the best work they did all match.

What's with the voting patterns for Saito? -- 2008 - 49%; 2007 - 18%; 2006 - 46%; 2005 - 13%

Arena Puebla 9/14/09 Asturiano & Centella de Oro vs. Ares & El Bárbaro Mascara Dorada, Sagrado, Valiente vs. Dragon Rojo Jr., Misterioso II, Sangre Azteca Most of the sources for Puebla have disappeared lately. I know Alfredo gets a steady supply of Puebla, but unless someone releases a "Best of Arena Puebla" set, I think I'll stick to whatever I can nab. From the little I saw, the locals vs. minis feud was the best idea a CMLL booker has had in years, which naturally means it's over. The locals didn't have much spark this week. They did their bit and hit the showers. Centella de Oro looked as smooth as ever, but the highlight of the match was the finish. Ares was in the ring and Bárbaro was on the floor. Asturiano set his sights on Ares, but floated backwards on a no-look dive to the outside. Centella de Oro scored a big takedown on Ares for the submission finish, and the technicos got a nice pop from the balcony. Moves are just tools of the trade as far as I'm concerned, but I have to admit I watched that Asturiano spot a few times. It was beautifully done and well caught by Bárbaro. I haven't seen any Valiente lately, so I decided to watch his trios here. Earlier in the year, Valiente and Freelance were neck and neck for technico of the year. Freelance injured himself and fell off the radar, while Valiente threw all his charm out the window by looking positively scrawny. The good news is that Valiente looks bigger than before and is still pound-for-pound one of the best workers in Mexico. The match began with a tribute to veteran luchador, Roberto Paz, who died on September 12th. The rudos and technicos joined together to give him a send off, and everyone worked hard out of respect for the man.

Taue doesn't have a great rep in Japan for what it's worth. People in the business thinking Hase was a better worker than Taue shouldn't come as a surprise.

I kinda doubt that they were having wild brawls.

I don't know whether it's true, but it's amusing if you know who Sterlo is.

Awesome -- legendary Australian rugby league player asking Hogan about Hiro Matsuda breaking his leg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdTFviNTzBs Hulk tore both his biceps when he picked Andre up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILmUrlCOtro

It was co-promoted with some other company, Arena Wrestling Alliance. I think the idea was that it was a Bushwhackers home coming tour.

That Australian tour is nothing compared to the WWF's '91 tour of New Zealand. Sivi Afi, Mad Dog of Baghdad, Royal Viking, The Angel of Death, Don Muraco, Jim Powers, The Genius, Koko B. Ware, Brooklyn Brawler, and the Nasty Boys vs. Bushwackers maineventing every town and city.

Perro Aguayo vs. Gran Hamada, WWF Light Heavyweight Title (UWF 4/17/84 handheld) When Hisashi Shinma broke away from New Japan with a group of workers to form the original UWF, he really had no idea how to promote it other than christening it as a mini version of New Japan. So on the first tour, he brought in UWA guys Perro Aquayo, Mano Negra, Negro Navarro, El Signo and Texano, Los Misioneros de la Muerte. The idea was to create a juniors division with Gran Hamada as the lynchpin. Some people will be familiar with the match Perro Aguayo and Gran Hamada had on the UWF's debut show in Omiya, a mano a mano brawl where Gran Hamada bled a bucket. That match was on the DVDVR Other Japan set. This is a handheld of what is essentially the blow-off match from the final night of the April tour. To the best of my knowledge, it has not been widely circulated. It took place at Ryogoku Kokugikan in Tokyo, otherwise known as Sumo Hall. This wasn't your typical lucha libre title match. I'd classify it as a junior workrate sprint with some super libre brawling. Gran Hamada was a small guy, probably a good inch or two shorter than he was billed, but what he lacked in stature he over-compensated for by developing his body. He had gigantic legs for a guy his size, but they enabled him to have a powerful springing action whenever he got up from the canvas. I don't think I've ever seen anyone spring into action quite like Gran Hamada. Perro Aguayo was a tremendous brawler in his time. His style was simple and direct, but he knew how to get heat, and he was just about the perfect rudo. Gran Hamada never short changed a bump once, going the whole hog on all of them, so the two of them had good working chemistry. The match started off with Perro ruling the roost. He could've legitimately won the first fall by overpowering the smaller Hamada, but it didn't take long for him to whip out his folk, or some other type of foreign object, and get himself unashamedly DQ'ed. The stage was set for Hamada to brace the odds like all true babyfaces, and while I wasn't enamoured with the sudden drop kick he used to fight his way back onto offence, after a rather glorious "pocket rocket" style tope, he became one of the only guys I've seen sell a tope like it took more out of him than his opponent. A lot of guys stagger around after a tope, waiting to transition into the next offensive stretch, but Hamada climbed back into the ring, used the top rope for support, staggered past the ref and collapsed into the ropes on the opposite side. The ref checked whether he could keeping going, and the whole sequence was good pro-wrestling drama. What followed was a neat "juniors" period where they traded moves and pinfall attempts. If I felt like quibbling, I'd mention that this is the part where Aguayo showed why he was never a truly great worker as the order he rolled his spots out in, and his inconsistent selling, meant that it was a little shaky, but for the live audience it was an exciting sequence of nearfalls. My favourite part where the forearm exchanges, where Hamada knocked Aquayo to the canvas, but his roll-up moves were also slick. Hamada also did a great job selling Aquayo's kicks and the famous big boot, dropping to one knee before heading straight to canvas. Aside from the junior exchanges where "if your move doesn't beat me, I'll get up and do mine" comes into play, the only real problem with the match was the submission attempts. The heat was good, but they dropped them after a certain number of beats and the follow-up work after dropping the holds wasn't as good as it could've been. Nevertheless, the stretch run was peppered with a few solid transitions (like Hamada flooring Aquayo with a strong looking punch), and Hamada's big impact stuff looked great since he either bounced with the impact to accentuate the force or rolled over onto his face to show he was throwing everything into the fight. The finish came after an Aquayo tope, when he tried to suplex Hamada back into the ring and Hamada flipped over the top and hit a huge (and awesome looking) backdrop driver. For some reason, the ref did a fast count and the crowd became all talkative about how fast it was. Nevertheless, Hamada was their new champion. Good match. There wasn't a hell of a lot of substance, but it was a good match nonetheless. Hamada's selling and execution were the highlights, and Perro showed that while he wasn't a perfect worker, he was plenty good in the 80s. The crowd were into it, too, which is something I remember from my own experience of going to a live show in Japan. Japanese fans are enthusiastic about nearfalls and get sucked into each "chance," as they say in Japan. There was a lot of coaching for Hamada to "cover, cover, cover," and the match worked, which is what it's all about.

Period!

Cassandro/Rudy Reyna vs. El Matemático/Ninja Sasuke (UWA 1992) This was from the tour to Mexico where Murakawa Masanori first donned the Great Sasuke ring attire; going by the name Ninja Sasuke. For a Japanese wrestler in Mexico, he certainly looked the part. It helped that he looked like Octagon or one of the Fantásticos (Blackman, Kung Fu, Kendo, and later Avispón Negro), but he had the agility and suppleness to do similar speed work, and he was working Cassandro, who at just 22 years of age was a brash young worker full of confidence. Reyna, on the other hand, looked like a washed up transvestite trying to turn a trick. He spent more time fixing his outfit than doing any serious grappling, though he did have one amusing spot where he used the martial arts to poke Matemático in the eyes. El Matemático was probably the most impressive guy in the match from a nuts and bolts perspective. Just a solid vet, who did the sort of things that would make him top five if he were around today. The match was your breezy, all-action undercard filler that was common in UWA at this time. There was nothing remotely outstanding about it. The only difference between this sort of match and the modern style is that the timing was slightly better. It was several notches down from the up-tempo, all-action midcard bouts of the 80s, but an easy watch. The way UWA used to edit these matches for TV is that they'd cram the entire thing into a fifteen minute slot, so there's never any time to let it all soak in. Still, I'd sooner watch Sasuke in Mexico than Ultimo Dragon, so it's not a complete waste of your time, provided you don't have too many other things to watch, which is always the case I guess.

I don't have a problem with that opinion, but there's a lot of things in pro-wrestling that amount to gimmicks. It seems anything goes in pro-wrestling except shoots. Once you start talking about shoots, people get all twitchy. Suddenly, MMA is a sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't MMA fought for its legitimacy as a sport? Surely, there are people from the fighters' respective backgrounds who see it as a circus. My argument isn't that pro-wrestling and MMA are one in the same, it's that MMA is a way for pro-wrestling people to make money. PRIDE was never regarded as a stand alone thing in Japan. It was lumped in with pro-wrestling, boxing and every other type of fighting. It was born, for the most part, out of UWF-i going belly up and Kingdom folding. It was not a clear cut alternative to pro-wrestling in Japan, it was essentially the new wave of wrestling promoting in Japan. Had it started like K-1, perhaps I might view it differently (though K-1 was certainly on the radar of Japanese wrestling fans.) The fact that PRIDE ended up folding in the same manner that all the shoot style promotions did highlights to me that it was just another promotion. There were a large number of new fans who were drawn to PRIDE, but it wasn't a completely different market from the one they were already operating in. I know people who went to UWF shows in the 80s and then went to every single PRIDE show. To me, it's like the film business where studios latch onto whatever genre is making money. This isn't the case for UFC, I believe, so you can't talk about it in general terms. There will always be guys who were out and out pro-wrestlers. Then there's other guys for whom switching being works and shoots wasn't that big a stretch, like Funaki and Shamrock. If you watch UWF/PWFG and then Pancrase, it is not night and day.

Isn't all pro wrestling worked shoots? It depends whether you define pro-wrestling as a worked shoot or as a style of promoting. If it's the latter, then any content can be pro-wrestling.

Uh, they're all football codes. There's been guys who've switched codes and been successful at more than one. There's been guys who've failed at switching codes. The only difference between switching football codes and going into an MMA environment is that pro-wrestling is worked.

I'm sure a lot of guy's reps are bullshit, but people always cherry pick what suits their argument. If a guy looks legit in a pro-wrestling environment, that's generally a plus. Strikes, matwork, whatever. Some people don't care about that stuff and that's fine, just like some people don't like shoot style, but pulling or throwing a strike doesn't make a world of difference and neither does the difference between a work and a shoot. Sakuraba trained to make a work look like a shoot. Then he trained to shoot for real. That, in my books, makes Sakuraba a better overall "worker" than he otherwise would have been if he'd stayed in the works only scene. That no doubt sounds stupid to others, but again I say people are only too happy to legitmise pro-wrestlers through their amateur background whenever it suits them. Pro-wrestlers are not created equal. This is one of the fundamental problems with the WON HOF. People are always saying "well, where's the equivalent who's already in the Hall?" Then they go off on these wild tangents saying if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck should it be in the HOF? No, use your discretion.

All our debate goes down to this actually. Once you've said you consider PRIDE as pro-wrestling (which I already knew), it sums up pretty much everything there's to say on your part. PRIDE did promote some worked matches which were pro-wrestling matches, but that doesn't make the company pro-wrestling. Like some pro-wrestling promotion did promote some legit shoot matches (like the kickboxing stuff in early ARSION cards) but it didn't made them legit fight promotion. Nobody in this thread is going to change their stance, but pro-wrestling to those people was whatever drew. HUSTLE is a good example of that. My argument is not that the fights were pro-wrestling fights, but that the company was a pro-wrestling outfit. They saw an opportunity and exploited it. I don't see the underlining difference between PRIDE and a gimmick fed.

If you want to argue that there's a connection, go for it. I don't really care whether I'm right or wrong about this. I have never understood why works and shoots should be kept separate. If you ask me, Funaki was the hottest pro-wrestler in Japan in 1996 and his match with Rutten was the best fight -- worked or shoot -- that year. I also think Tamura's best shoots ought to be included in his list of best matches, and that from a work perspective if you're a good shooter that makes you a better wrestler in general, pro or otherwise. I don't understand how you can praise guys for faking a fight and saying how great their matwork looks etc. and then suddenly if they're fighting for a real submission it's completely separate and unrelated. Bullshit. If Yoshiaki Fujiwara had wanted to, he could've hooked on a submission for real (or maybe he couldn't have, but let me keep my fantasy.) The fact that this doesn't apply to Hulk Hogan or Dusty Rhodes hardly matters.

It depends. I imagine Dave will support Lesnar's candidacy and I imagine there were be a ton of debate over it. Personally, I don't care. I don't subscribe to the WON, I just have an outside curiosity about the whole thing. But for every Japanese fan I know, and I mean hardcore fans, Sakuraba is a no-brainer. I don't see why you have to apply the same standards for each candidate. That doesn't make any sense. Basically, this argument comes down to how you feel about pro-wrestling and MMA, and to a lesser extent how you feel about Dave Meltzer. Lesnar had a more successful pro-wrestling career than Sakuraba and may have a more successful MMA career too. That may make it difficult to leave Brock out since Sakuraba and Funaki have already set a precedent. The key difference, I would imagine, is that US pro-wrestling fans and the media (whoever they are) haven't exactly flocked to Lesnar as the biggest thing in pro-wrestling. If New Japan had been in the position that the WWE is now, perhaps Sakuraba wouldn't have been quite as big a deal, but you never know... Japanese people eat this shit up. When a Japanese baseball player goes to MLB, it's massive. When a US player comes to play baseball in Japan, it doesn't cause a ripple in the States. There's not that many direct comparisons you can make, because you're dealing with two different countries. PRIDE was more or less a pro-wrestling promotion in my eyes. Look at one of the major guys behind it -- he went and started HUSTLE which is the flipside of the same coin. Anything that has Inoki involved is not going to be on the up and up. People can talk about trying to legitimise pro-wrestling, but let's not legitimise PRIDE too much.

Who says Sakuraba's career was unsuccessful before MMA? If Sakuraba hadn't worked in UWF-i or Kingdom, then no, he wouldn't belong in the HOF. Fedor doesn't belong in the WON HOF and neither do Silva or Nogueira for the simple fact that they were never pro-wrestlers. Would it work the other way? No, that doesn't appear logical, but if the MMA people suddenly saw money in it things could change. I don't follow MMA all that closely, but my understanding is that right now the UFC is making money. So long as they're making money the only aspects of pro-wrestling they're going to touch are presentation, booking and perhaps some similar marketing. Were their financial situation to change, they might start rigging fights (if they haven't done so already.)

All it really says is that celebrities fighting, whether they be pro wrestlers, Olympic heroes, yokozunas or comedians draw money. Which sounds awfully like pro-wrestling in other words.

I'm afraid that swings both ways. For every wrestler or fan who is ultimately embarrassed by being associated with something as inherently silly as pro-wrestling, there's a person who derides pro-wrestling as being inherently silly and not worthy of being legitimised or made credible. Your argument may be true, but the whole Sakuraba angle was based on him legitimising Japanese fighting, which the fans and media ate up. The whole Sakuraba thing is simple. If you take a guy who was doing worked shoots and make him a star doing MMA fights, aside from the angle that you spin on it, it doesn't matter what he does in the ring. It could be real, it could be fake, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that he drew pro-wrestling fans and new fans to a different sort of promotion. People in this thread are advocating a guy who did 3-5 minute matches that consisted mostly of body checks. The fact that Big Daddy did works is not part of his candidacy. His matches, for the most part, are irrelevant. If a guy can get into the hall for being a huge draw and being good on the mic then a special case like Sakuraba or Funaki is not a stretch of the imagination when the business works differently in Japan than it does from the US. Whether Lesnar is the same sort of case is up for debate. Let's say a mediocre wrestler goes into boxing and wins a title. That in itself is not grounds for being in a pro-wrestling HOF. But if pro-wrestling people put him into boxing and manage him to stardom, then it gets a little blurry. If Vince started up his own boxing promotion or latched onto it somehow, and started sending his workers in to do real fights, people's heads would explode.