Grimmas

Please explain how lucha is hard to understand? It's wrestling, people are trying to pin or submit their opponents.

Fuck nobody is discarding output. The matches show people what the skills are. On the pod, I bought up why people were great, then pointed to matches as examples or for people to see. You can't write an essay and not point to evidence to show your points.

Bret was a big fish in a hugely diluted pond that was US and Canada wrestling in 92-97. I stack Kobashi being a guy with huge crowd appeal from a young lion to the day he retired in 2013 as a better testament to his connection to the crowd. Bret certainly has good matches with lesser talent but also has mediocre to mundane matches with really good talent which weighs into the house show effect with him. I again hate playing the what if game. Bret had plenty of matches with good workers as a tag wrestler and singles star. Bret did have a chance to have a showcase match in 1992 vs. Shawn Michaels. This match headlined a PPV and was given 26 minutes. Most at best call it very good. Name a Kobashi performance on the big stage where he was that flat for a huge performance making opportunity. Even the excessive Kobashi matches have pretty great heat. Kobashi never wrestled hbk in 92 in a WWF ring.

This is the second time in this thread that someone has imagined what Bret would do if given a set of circumstances that never happened. Is it a measure of what happened or what we imagine might happen if we fantasy booked it? Sorry if I sound incredulous but what is the hypothetical scenario stuff about? Skills vs output. Bret has better skills (to some of us). You can't look past output, so it is us trying to get on your way of thinking.

Parv nobody is saying you can't look at matches to elevate a wrestler. That is impossible.

Parv disliking dancing is the saddest and least shocking thing ever.

I don't think I will either, but we'll see. I really should look up who you had at 95, but now I am just excited for that reveal.

Of course there is a better metric and it's called: +FSBOCHCCSSHBTBC -SSB

I snarked a similar request in my first post, but I edited it out because I don't know if there's anything less productive for this discussion than whipping out match lists and comparing length. Bret and Flair didn't really work well together. It might be do to different philosophies or personal dislike, but they didn't work. Weird situation to pick. Yes comparing great match lists lengths is exactly what I am against.

Steven's +FSBOCHCCSSHBTBC -SSB system! Positive Categories: How good are your Finishes? How awesome are you at Selling? How Believable are you in the ring? How good does your Offense look? Does your Choices make sense? Are you good at Hope spots? Are you good at Comebacks? Are you good at Cut off spots? Are you good at Shine? Are you good in different Settings? Are you a good Heel? Are you a good Babyface? Are you good in Tags? Are you Believable? Do you do Cool things that make sense? Negative Categories: Do you forget to Sell? Do you do anything that makes no Sense and thus piss me off? Are you Boring? there's probably more, but that's all I can think of?

Who said Kobashi wasn't good at selling? He's one of the all time greats. I just think Bret's is better. I'd take Bret's exhausted selling over Kobashi's leg selling any day.

FUCKING EXACTLY!

My argument is that Bret wrestles more my ideal style of wrestling and is better in every category of wrestling (minus a few) than Kobashi. Thus he is a better wrestler. If I was to do a BIGLAV, you would see. Except my categories would be way more and completely different than yours.

Performances and skills and talent always wins out for me.

I named John Cena.I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view. John Cena had great fire, gets great sympathy with selling and can do very hot comebacks. He builds drama better than most. Cena is a great wrestler. Yes his execution stinks, but the stories and feeling are there. All these things are true of other wrestlers who don't have the laundry list.I don't believe for a second anyone would rank Cena as highly as he has been if he didn't have the list. You are delusional if you think otherwise. It is his case. His whole case. Who is saying you have to completely ignore output? You can't divorce the two. You made the dichotomy earlier when trying to defend your basically absurd Bret #5 vs Kobashi #18 rankings. Bret did have great matches though. All I'm trying to say is that if wrestler A has 10 great matches and wrestler B has 5 great matches then A is not automatically > B I don't know how many times I have to say this.

I named John Cena.I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view. John Cena had great fire, gets great sympathy with selling and can do very hot comebacks. He builds drama better than most. Cena is a great wrestler. Yes his execution stinks, but the stories and feeling are there. All these things are true of other wrestlers who don't have the laundry list. I don't believe for a second anyone would rank Cena as highly as he has been if he didn't have the list. You are delusional if you think otherwise. It is his case. His whole case. Who is saying you have to completely ignore output? You can't divorce the two.

I named John Cena. I would love to hear someone try to make a case that Cena is great based on his skills rather than his output. It cannot be done in my view. John Cena had great fire, gets great sympathy with selling and can do very hot comebacks. He builds drama better than most. Cena is a great wrestler. Yes his execution stinks, but the stories and feeling are there.

I never once said Kobashi was a stupid wrestler. That was never what great match theory was about. Great Match Theory is the theory that the person who had the more great matches is the greater wrestler. Nobody has once tried to argue that a wrestler who had a lot of great matches wasn't great. Just that it doesn't automatically mean that they are greater than someone with less great matches.

You like big, I like subtle.

I had Kobashi 18, let's not act like I'm shitting on him

People seem to forget his early career with crazy hair.

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