Bob Morris

I think that HBK stuff was just message board talk about what people expected might happen... not what was actually the plan.

So Raw's ratings are back on the rise again. I wonder if any of the familiar Net personalities will ever admit that it's because John Cena is back.

And Boondocks mentioned Steph, so there you go. It would be more entertaining to see Heyman end up in TNA, just to see which scenario is more likely: * Heyman jumping on Russo for still living in 1998. * Russo being appalled that Heyman suggested a lesbian angle with The Beautiful People. * Jarrett telling Heyman he will not bring Cyrus on board to do another Network angle. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

If Brian Gewirtz is still around (last I checked he was), fat chance of that happening. And who knows what Freddy Prinze Jr. (he became a writer, remember?) thinks. Really, though, the only thing I'd do with Heyman is let him book the house shows. At least then his attempts to get higher star ratings from the smarts will make the WWE some money, while the writers don't feel threatened because the shows don't air on TV and, to them, they don't matter.

Sek is correct. I didn't know about the book until Bix mentioned it here. I'm absolutely glad I bought the book... it's not perfect but it tells a story that needs to be told more often because it may be the only way pro wrestling might clean up its act. As much as it's hard to see people who are put on a pedestal start getting exposed that they aren't so perfect after all, sometimes it's necessary to see needed changes happen. Lyle Alzado was loved by many NFL fans and his admittance of taking steroids was a major step in the NFL addressing a problem it had ignored for some time. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens weren't universally loved, but the finger getting pointed at them for usage of performance enhancers was among the things that forced MLB to take a closer look at this. The WWE was forced to take a closer look at the issue of drug usage among its wrestlers following the death of Eddie Guerrero and what happened to Chris Benoit, but there are still plenty of things not just the WWE, but everyone involved in pro wrestling, could do to keep improving the situation. That, in a nutshell, is supposed to be the intent of Ring of Hell... to reveal these things and let it be known that changes need to happen in more than just curbing drug usage. And while Foley, Jericho and Hart might have had better writing styles or finished products than Randazzo, their books were intended to tell their personal tales, not to expose serious problems in the wrestling industry. They may have told you about certain problems they encountered, but in most cases, they were ones most Internet fans knew about (WCW's lack of organization, the Hart family not being one big happy family, certain wrestlers being egotistical, etc.). Ring of Hell did more to bring to light things people may not have known about and that is ultimately its strongest point, regardless of what one thinks of the writing style.

Wow, with TNA sending in a Palin impersonator, it would only be natural for WWE to respond by turning Steph into Palin. Maybe they'll do sketches where Steph goes moose hunting and runs into Mantaur.

As I've stated before and will state again, the whole reason Ring of Hell exists is to illustrate that the wrestling business is a fucked up business filled with fucked up individuals. It just tells its story in a harsher tone and refuses to play favorites. It's not a perfect book, and as I wrote in my own review, it's not the "gospel" among wrestling books. But it's one I consider a must-read simply for the perspective it will give you on the wrestling business, and honestly, a reality check plenty of people out there need. Not saying anyone in this thread needs it, but I'm sure everyone posting in this thread can think of at least one person somewhere who has left the blinders on when it comes to their favorite wrestling personality. The fact we still keep bringing up stuff about the book six months after its release shows it had an impact on those who read it, even if the wrestling business itself is still going about business as usual (although to be fair, more is being done than there was 20 years ago). As far as anything Meltzer has to say, people should remember that the only way one is going to know the truth is to personally witness it yourself. It doesn't make either Ring of Hell or what Meltzer writes the absolute truth, although both will have some truth to them. And it's not because either Randazzo or Meltzer is intentionally lying... it's simply the version of events they have gathered and thus presented to the reader. It's ultimately up to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions, but it's important to take the blinders off regarding whoever you consider to be your favorite wrestler.

The latest on the lawsuit: http://www.ctemploymentlawblog.com/2008/11...ion-to-dismiss/

Big names? If you take the names you mentioned and put them through the same situation WWF did with the InVasion, you have the same problem... the "invaders" are not made to look like a threat. That is why the nWo worked... Hall and Nash were not enough by themselves. Nash was the worst drawing WWF champion in history and Hall was an upper midcarder at best in his career to that point. How they got over was they were made to look like threats. If it had been Hall and Nash getting their asses handed to them every time they faced Luger, Sting and Savage, there goes any threat they perceive. Granted, they became too much of a threat... but by that point, they were over ane established. Once that happens, you can look to your blowoff matches and go from there. DDP didn't flop agaisnt Undertaker because DDP wasn't a big name. He flopped because he was never made to look like a threat. Make him one and he will have a better chance to succeed. For anyone who thinks "big names" make things work, ask yourself how many "big names" have popped in through the years since the InVasion and how many of them failed to produce results... and in plenty of cases, it was because they never came off as a threat.

Continuing...

Speaking of jdw, I wonder if he can confirm how much of the original tOA archives are still around. I know he did put up a few of the classic posts from there on the new board, but I wonder what else he could dig up. Here is one of them, the Titan Sports Entertainment stuff Frank Jewett came up with back in 2001 when the InVasion angle was nearing its end and the WWF brand split was being talked about. http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1036

OK, I understand now. Thanks for clearing it up. I wonder if Ric is referring to this:

I'm sure the popular answer will be WWF's attempt to get Lex Luger over, and I'd guess he'd be referring to Shawn Michaels as one of the "two people who deserved their moment," although the better argument can be made that Bret Hart was the one pushed aside in favor of Luger (even if the Luger push was really in response to Hogan's departure and Vince's love for big, muscular guys).

Oops, someone hit the blacklist a little too late! With four months left however, there's still time to replace the Hulk with Steve Keirn, and Jimmy with WWE Concierge Harvey Whippleman. I think the Legends games work a bit differently in terms of how wrestlers get featured in them... since some of the wrestlers who get featured aren't signed to a WWE Legends contract, they likely have to be contracted individually, although presumably with WWE's blessing. I'd doubt, though, that THQ and Jakks would cave in to WWE removing Hogan from the cover, as they'd argue he is too big of a name toexclude. I could be wrong about this, though, so if somebody has correct information, feel free to provide it.

Loss is pretty much correct... Vince wants Bischoff's project to get the "WWE Seal of Approval" or he's pissed off about it. Just like with Beyond the Mat... regardless of what one thinks of the quality of the actual product, Vince's pet peeve with it is that he doesn't get to put his stamp on it and mold it the way he wants it to come off. Bischoff's comments regarding Meltzer aren't without merit, but the way he presents them makes him look petty. He'd be better off explaining that reality shows on cable TV are meant to fill niches that the cable networks think can be filled. They've done celebrity rodeo, Surreal Life, The Pick Up Artist and a whole host of other reality shows that would never draw the ratings Raw currently draws, but are just there to for those people who may have a fleeting interest in such stuff.

It's possible Flair agreed to make appearances in some capacity for the Hogan tour, even if he isn't going to work matches, and Hogan agreed to do the indy show in return. Or it's possible David and Reid are scheduled to be opponents of Hogan, although I couldn't imagine why. Who knows what goes on in the worlds of Hogan and Ric these days.

What people forget about Hogan was that, in the prime of his career, he was a master of some basic elements of a match: knowing how long you stay on offense to warm up the crowd, at what point does the heel take control, when do you give the fans that false hope, when does the babyface comeback finally kick in, and how do things build to the finish. Nash understood how to manipulate people backstage, but he didn't understand how to manipulate a crowd enough to sustain his runs on top. Hogan understood how to control the crowd, so his runs lasted longer and were more successful. Between Eddie and Benoit, Eddie always struck me as the one who understood more about how to control the crowd beyond doing eye-popping highspots. But when he hit his prime, big men tended to get most of the attention, leading him down the paths he chose to take.

I would assume Bret's HOF speech is where the earlier WM VII timeframe came from? Because it would seem odd that they would flock to Flair's room when he wasn't with the WWF at the time of WM VII (unless it was a typo and it was WM VIII referred to). Not that I'm saying Bret must be right, because he does have some minor timeline issues with some stuff in his book (although much of it was what was happening in WWF post-Montreal).

I finished the book last night. I'm disappointed KS didn't get into the night when Vince McMahon went out partying with the boys. I would imagine everyone has read the book by now, but for those who haven't, the summary of what happened after the This Tuesday in Texas PPV. * Bret goes to get Owen, who flew in to San Antonio from Germany and was set to make his return to WWF with Jim Neidhart as the New Foundation. * Off they go to a strip club where the wrestlers hang out in San Antonio, and there's Hulk Hogan and Brutus Beefcake with other wrestlers gathered around them. Bret specifically mentions LOD, Sgt. Slaughter, Curt Hennig, Big Bossman, Hercules, Neidhart and Davey Boy Smith being there. * Then at midnight, it's MR. MCMAHON~! arriving and he's already sauced and gonna party with the boys before his new drug policy goes into effect. Pat Patterson doesn't want him to, but Sgt. Slaughter says he'll be designated driver for Vince. Quoting from Bret's book: "...Pat fled through the front door, as though he'd been chased out by the sight of all those naked women." * Next thing you know, Hogan dares Hawk and Animal to give Vince the Doomsday Device, and then Animal is lifting Vince onto his shoulders as Hawk climbs onto the bar. But then Hawk things better of it and just touches Vince with his arm and Hogan and Beefcake catch him. Neidhart tells everyone the Hart Foundation would have the balls to actually do and Bret says "Damn right!" * And then IT HAPPENS: Bret and Jim do the Hart Attack on Vince. Vince then tells Bret he owes him a drink, so they chug down Double Dewar's on ice together. * Then Davey Boy gets in on the act like he'll do the running powerslam on Vince, long after last call, but the cops come in and clear everyone out. Owen and Bret drag off some strippes with them, but the line of cars can't get by a police car parked in front of the club. Enter Sgt. Slaughter, who floors the gas in his car and pushes the police car to the side. GO JOE AND LOOK OUT COBRA! * And since a certain Nature Boy is with the company at this point, everyone knows where they end up next... penthouse at the Marriott. But there's no answer and the clerk won't give them a key until Vince demands it. * Flair is nowhere to be found, only Earl Hebner is there. And there's nothing but a bottle of vodka, but then somebody produces a bag of marijuana and IT'S PARTY TIME. * So the party is spent with everyone taking turns pissing on Flair's bed... and yessir, Vince takes his turn. Then Vince starts challenging everyone to amateur wrestling, but when he gets to Neidhart, Jim reminds him about the Die Hard scene where Bruce Willis tackles the bad guy and sends him crashing several floors to the lobby and Vince backs off. YEAH BABY. * The punch line is Flair never shows up for the chance to party with Vince and the boys. The added punch line is Bret drawing a cartoon the next day of Vince dressed in his boxers taking a piss on Flair's bed and Vince laughing the loudest at it. Ladies and gentlemen, the greatest part in WWF history and Flair MISSED IT ALL. He will never live it down, mark my words.

Something that I think is getting lost in the talk about how TNA is pushing toward former WWE star against former WWE star is that TNA's ultimate problem is not in who they push, but how they do it. I don't care to hear about Christian Cage's contract situation on Impact shows... it may get discussion on wrestling forums, but when it comes to the TV shows, I want to be able to suspend my disbelief and get lost in the moment. It's like a movie being produced and you hear stories about two actors on the set who don't like each other... it may be juicy gossip to discuss on forums, but if the director suddenly decides to take this actor feud and turn it into the movie's plotline, it's going to be a flop. People are well aware that movies are acting, scripted material, etc., but a truly good movie is one that makes you forget about all that and truly enjoy what you are watching. I agree that turning Cage heel and feuding with the Originals is a better idea, but don't bring up his contract situation at any time, or you will immediately lose me because I'm not interested in his contract situation becoming storyline material. It should be about Cage's character versus the character of A.J. Styles or whoever you match him up with. As I've said previously, the concept of the Main Event Mafia versus the TNA Originals is fine. But the way it's being executed leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not talking about a MEM member cheating to win against an Original, I'm talking about things like when Kevin Nash throws every move he can at Samoa Joe and still can't pin him, and thus ultimately cheats to win, we just toss it in the same pile with the other MEM wins without doing what should be done... Nash coming out to brag about his tainted win, Joe coming out wanting the rematch and Nash doing whatever he can to avoid facing Joe, making it clear there is this little uncertainty Nash has that he could beat Joe in a rematch. The latter means fans anticipate the rematch and want to rally behind Joe. The former makes Joe vs. Nash "just another match" and means people don't care about the rematch, to the point people don't care about the result, even if Joe convincingly goes over.

I have a Colisuem Video tape titled "Raw Hits" which dates back to 1995. Has five matches on it: * Bret Hart vs. 1-2-3 Kid (but sadly, just two of the three aired segments... the middle segment is not included, plus commentary has been overdubbed) * Davey Boy Smith vs. Shawn Michaels (I believe it includes all aired segments) * Lex Luger vs. Tatanka, steel cage match * Alundra Blayze vs. Bull Nakano (this one might be missing a segment as well) * Bret Hart, 1-2-3 Kid and Bob Holly vs. Owen Hart, Yokozuna and Hakushi (another one that might be missing a segment) Only Coliseum Video tape I ever bought, mostly because I never saw them sold in stores much of the time, just available for rent at movie rental stores.

Those Voodoo Kin Mafia summaries are excellent. As far as what is happening now, I haven't seen the shows, but what TNA seems to be trying to do with, for example, Scott Steiner, is to build off of the days when he was in WCW venting his frustrations in promos, such as the one where he took shots at several people in WCW he wasn't feuding with and mentioned Ric Flair in particular. TNA seems to think it makes Scott Steiner look like a jerk by burying TNA, but the rule of wrestling is you don't bury your opponent. What they really need to do is make Steiner a bully... the guy that talks about how much the Mafia has done in wrestling and they demand respect, and if they don't get it, he'll beat people up until they do. As far as mentioning WWE goes, it can work, but only if done in the proper context, and specifically to make WWE look like the enemy. For example... when addressing the Mafia, you say to Booker T about how you left WWE out of frustration with the things they were doing to you, and yet here you are doing those same things to the young guys in TNA. Makes WWE the enemy, makes Booker heelish and puts sympathy on the younger guys. Or with Sting: Say he wouldn't go to WWE because WWE wants to build every wrestler in WWE's image, even if the wrestler has been successful with an image WWE didn't create. In other words, Sting didn't go to WWE because he didn't want to change for them. Yet here he is, in TNA, and it's not the same Sting we've all loved... you have changed, Sting, and not for the better. And when Angle talks about WWE, he can talk all he wants about his WWE accomplishments because that's how he builds himself as a wrestling legend. But don't have him started doing "worked shoots" with The Sun and other publications about how much he wants to go back to WWE. Stick with an in-ring promo in which you remind Angle how much he hated the way Vince McMahon treated him, and here you are in TNA, treating the young guys the same way Vince McMahon treated you. Again, the purpose of mentioning the other guy is to (a) make them truly look like the bad guy without demanding a response, ( make the guy coming from WWE look like the bad guy because he's acting the same way he accused WWE of treating him and © make the TNA fans sympathize with TNA and their young talent because of the treatment the WWE guys coming here are giving them. Instead, all Russo and company are doing is trying to recreate circumstances that allowed for certain moments to happen when you can't recreate those circumstances, and hence it just makes it look like a cheap way to get attention and buries TNA in the process.

I personally agree with what Jingus has said about the "who's in charge" angle. It's played... you might get somebody who can draw plenty of heat, but it's the storyline itself that no longer interests me. If Vickie Guerrero can get heat, make her a manager for somebody who can't talk. I know that will never happen in today's wrestling environment because managers are passe and all that, but I'd rather see her in that role than being the person in charge trying to screw her chosen target over at every turn. McMahon/Austin was done 10 years ago and the WWE is still trying to capture that lightning in a bottle. It's time to put the bottle away, move on to something else, and if somebody draws heat, find another role for that person rather than playing up the same old storyline.

More than likely, Bruno buys into Kurt's claims that the drugs he took were all because Vince McMahon ran him into the ground, and now he's perfectly clean. Never mind that, while Angle may be smaller than he was in his later WWE years, he's still bigger than he was in his early years with the company, and still taking ill-advised spots.

Really, what it boils down to with Keith is his choice of words are poor. When he talks about Shockmaster being made a main eventer, he no doubt was basing in on the fact that Shockmaster was being placed in War Games when people didn't know who he was, and thus the idea should be that somebody who you don't know the identity of should turn out to be a major deal. I would imagine the plan was to make him a top attraction, but because of what happened with his introduction, that was the end of that. Dave Sullivan, seemed more like somebody who they made Hogan's "number one Hulkamaniac" in the hopes he'd get the rub and it didn't work. Then again, one could argue that there were better options than Dave as far as somebody Hogan could give the rub to. I agree with those who say that Warrior, more or less, had free reign. Vince basically gave up a lot in return to get him to come back and he returned for barely a six-month period before he was gone, and most of the stuff Warrior was involved with didn't draw heat at a level that justified what Vince was giving him.