Johnny P

Looking forward to it. I've never watched the series (a big whole in my viewing resume), so seeing a few these will do my cred well

Just finished listening. GREAT job, guys. This really worked out. Stevie didn't pull any punches, and you guys presented some different, intelligent questions. Well done.

He's one of my best friends. I'll call him and let him know. Funny, I'd totally forgotten that he even made that comp. He'll be pleased.

The giving people what they want versus what we do here debate/argument is interesting to me. I feel like a lot of us make allownances for "what gets over" and factor that in, but Matt also has a good point. i mean, in self evaluating my rankings, ratings, and overall likes, I'm often faced with the fact that when watching these sets I AM enjoying myself, but I'm critiquing from a point of looking for perfection, or finding a new favorite based on DRAMA and epic storytelling. I LOVe the hidden gems and neat little matches like that RNR match from all Japan, or the Roadies vs High Flyers match I admittedly have probably over-rated, but I've realized I tend to pick apart matches and split hair to get refined rankings, and A LOT of that is based on my personal leaning of what stories and match work emotionally involves me. A LOT of stuff that is over with the crowd just does nothing for me, or I'll get captured by something like the first hogan vs Bock (the consensus being its a good glorified squash) because I see some storytelling element that I personally love, and the rest of you be damned. Ya know? So we are influences by crowds at times. we are influenced by each other. We all do bring a million leanings into these discussions. I LOVE the nuances of how we percieve this stuff, and that's what a lot of the conversations i wanted to have with Will last night were based on. Interesting stuff. Just a little background on me, Matt: I'm a lurker here just because of lack of time (the threads are 2-4 pages deep before i find them), but I've been reading this board for a few years. I post on Death Valley, but only in the 80s section, and because of my film I'm way late with AWA (look at All Japan threads, I was one of the discussion molders, like you with AWA). So I've been around. I'm friends with a lot of the people on the boards and in the hobby on a personal level, so half the time i read stuff in a thread and I'll just call Dylan or Will. For whatever reason posting fell back in my mind

I'm rewatching that Hennig vs Saito match for sure. BOTH Matt and and Dylan have that really high, and they've pointed out some things where i feel like maybe if i watch it alone, with sound, and not after a bunch of other stuff, I'll have a different opinion. I think in a group or tandem setting the tag matches are capturing me more than the singles, which is often the opposite when I'm left to watch this stuff as single servings alone. Might say more about me and my whims than that match, so I'm giving it another watch.

Just finished with Will. Wow, two man team and we didn't have more than 5 seconds of dead air ever. Really enjoyed doing the show with Will. We DID NOT agree on everything, and half of the disagreement didn't even have to do with matches we were watching at the time. Lots of style and presentation discussion, and all kinds of wrestling tropes we love or don't like as much, and basically a shit ton of talk about the little things in matches. Its a very different show from those you'll hear where a whole group is talking. Check it out. Give us feedback. Get some discussions started. I'll try and check back tomorrow to see if anyone listened. Friday and Saturday are looking like busy days in Philly and NYC respectively, so if I disappear on a conversation, I apologize in advance.

Yeah, Matt D is right. It was me doing my whole "changing levels" spiel. Not the only type of match i like, but when it's a Bock match, and specifically against Martel, I'm a fan of the up and down, changing levels pacing as long as they give effort and really work the holds. Matt, i will most likely LOVE that match as those two have been my personal favorites so far (did disks 1 and 2, skipped ahead to disc 4 to do podcast with Will)

Pumped for this, Bix

I watched this match three weeks ago, and for the life of me I have not been able to focus my thoughts and say something coherent about it. This was the first time I actually sat through an entire Joshi match from the 80s. Being an Observer reader I’m aware the guy thought some of the 80s Joshi were the best matches of the time. It is pretty crazy to see women working a stiff style with mat work that would have a home in something like ROH a few years back (contemporary reference for me; I’m only twenty-eight). In fact these women work better than Shimmer or ROH women at replicating what the men could or would be doing at the lighter weights. But there’s something detached about watching it. You know the young girls in the audience love Nagayo, and you know Devil is supposed to be bad ass, but it doesn’t quite connect with me. I always envisioned reading about Devil that she was a fat heel, but she’s actually prettier than Nagayo. I don’t have the connections the crowd did, and even seeing it play out, I didn’t feel a rooting interest in anyone. It was kinda like watching Spanky vs Danielson in early TWA or ROH: They execute perfectly and you know they are so damn talented, but it’s a lot of moves that don’t quite mean anything to you. This match was better than that, and the crowd response proves it, but I never felt a story was unfolding in front of me. It’s almost as if there were too many “lead” changes, and I lost track of what was happening. A lot of big moves that meant nothing, though the selling at the end was good. Perhaps with commentary to guide me this would have been different.

Brad Armstrong vs. Great Muta (WCWSN 5/30/92) I liked Brad Armstrong in his Mid South matches, and I was actually a bigger advocate for his title match on TV with Dibiase then the longer formed house show match. So I think Armstrong had talent and could go in a shorter TV match. Likewise, I like Muta, though I’m less of a fan of the Muta character than of Keiji Muto the worker. So going in I was excited about this match, especially since it was singled out by people I trust and spotlighted. My problem with this match (it’s really the first fall because it’s 2/3 with TV time remaining) is that it is a wonderful display of holds and mat wrestling, but it barely ever gets out of first gear. You can make a case that at times they shift into second gear, but they shut it back down and head down roads they’ve already seemed to travel. There is no feeling of great struggle or urgency in what they do, it instead feels like they are treading water. And that’s okay. You can make a case that this is a different style of match that errors on the side of tactical and has the story of one man waiting for another’s mistake. But because it goes twenty minutes, it really wears on you and might have been more suited for audiences a decade or two earlier. Having said all that, the last twenty seconds was really good and exciting, and I liked the finish to the first fall. Then they head to the second fall and it feels like they go to second gear, but stay in a holding pattern. Maybe I was stunned by the first fall and I carried feelings over. It’s possible. It doesn’t seem like I liked the match, but I did. Armstrong was a really strong “background” wrestler, and Muta was so smooth, his pace is simply to deliberate for me in this character. As always, depending upon the performer, I’m a hypocrite. I think I have a problem with Muta having the same mannerisms whether he’s selling or in control. I did like the way Muta closed out the match and shut the door for the definitive pin fall. Also of note is Riki Rachtman, the host of MTV’s Headbanger’s Ball, on commentary. Now it seems kinda lame, but in 1990 it must have been cool to have a youth celebrity on a show like that. He doesn’t add much, but he’s careful not to detract from the wrestling going on, so I had no problem with it. Ratchman went on to host WCW Monday Nitro parties, a dream fulfilled I’m sure.

Jim Cornette and a more sports oriented, less hyperbolic Jim Ross on commentary. Talk about a dream team, and they helped paint the match’s picture completely for me. The first few minutes is as simple as punches and wrist locks, and the story works so perfectly. You can totally buy into Murdoch as this tough babyface who sells a punch like gold, but when he gets back up Luger better run – and does. Also dug the technical arm work of Murdoch and the way he’d wrench that thing while Luger kinda sells. Other than a body, Luger had no presence or believability to me. This match is Murdoch leading Luger through the paces. I popped when Murdoch finally unleashed those big punches (with a great elbow beforehand). Ross promotes Dr. Death vs Sid Vicious on an upcoming Saturday show. This I must see on a comp some day. The crowd is really behind Murdoch, which is fun to see. Luger really sold he knee great there for a minute. As in, I’d really like to see more people sell a knee that well for a period of time. Murdoch’s block of a suplex using the ropes is another realistic thing I’d like to see more in modern day matches. Luger’s work on the back to build for the torture rack all made sense to me, and kinda gave him more of a dimension than he had later in his career. I’d definitely say Luger carried his end of this one. The ref seemed to be smarter as Luger tried to cheat, and the announcing was more informed, and it made me like this good, but not great match more than some “better” matches. The double-DQ finish was a bummer, but I’ll live.

I know there’s a talking point/school of thought emerging out there (of course this is all random opinion and not a completely unified thought)that the Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid matches don’t hold up, or never were that great, and that Tiger Mask was a bit of a spot monkey without logic at times (I welcome any clarifications on these generalizations). I have to say that I was excited to see this match, and it wasn’t my first viewing, because I’ve always loved Tiger Mask and the underdog role he played. The moves are unique for the times, the excitement is there, and the matches are usually fun. That’s the big thing. I have fun watching Tiger Mask. Early stuff is typical Tiger Mask, and Eddie Gilbert is agreeable. Odd seeing the young Gilbert here, as he reminds me of late 70s Ted Dibiase visually. Bizarre moment early when Tiger Mask got a leg lock and just stood there for a while. Even Gilbert was relaxed, looking back in the hold like, “are we going or what?” Crowd is tentative at first, but they get won over, which is nice to see given that Philly would later bore ECW. Dick what’s-his-name is a great local bumpkin announcer, and Gorilla is typically middle of the road for my tastes. They blend fine together. The casual talk of the $200 masks from Mexico was gold. The running ropes portions with these two wrestlers are really great, and I definitely feel like Gilbert gave a lot to this match. Mask was so damn quick – I love it. Gilbert’s head scissors and the way he achieves a hold is nearly as impressive as Mask’s. I loved when Mask did a spin kick that didn’t fully land, Gilbert sold for a second, then got right up and stalked him with a clenched fist. There’s a lot of little things in this match I’m loving. There are times when it feels a little empty (not quite slow, but there gaps where there seems to be miscommunication or a question as to where they are going), but it’s slight. The finish was so quick that it didn’t seem like the announcers were sure who won (Tiger Mask). Overall great stuff, and more importantly, a fun match.

My first foray into seriously watching a WWWF MSG match from the seventies. Lou Albano keeps yelling into the mic. I don’t quite get it, but the crowd gets riled up. This really is a time warp, because these tough NYC fans really seem to love the spiffy All-American Backland. He looks like he stole Doug Furnas’ legs and put them on his much shorter body. Koloff, who I’ve read about for years, but never seen, has a great heel look with a cape (shorter than I’d have thought). I get all these Russians mixed up no matter how hard I try, and Nikita Koloff is the only one that’s really jumped out to me. Probably the influence of watching too much 1985 Flair – and I’m realizing this was “Uncle Ivan”. I enjoyed the late 70s Vince McMahon commentary much more than the 90s version. I surprised at how much fun the early sequences are. Easy to follow and logical, and not nearly as boring as I might have ignorantly stereotyped them to be (WWWF, 70s, slow, blah). It’s got almost an MMA/jiu-jitsu progression to the holds. Even the bridge sequence had some grit and charm. Sure, there are slow parts, but the crowd is hot, and as long as there’s some wrestling logic I like the formula. Backland has a wrestling answer to everything Koloff does. The only crappy part was Backland powering out of a test of strength – too hammed up for me. Some random thoughts – Whenever the action would pick up in quick spurts after long holds it was surprisingly exciting. The holds were a bit long, but definitely worked well. Backland is so goofy as a face that the only modern day equivalent I can think of is Kenny Omega. The crowd back then had a lot more patience. Love the crowd chanting in rhythm as Backland pulls on the leg of Koloff. Koloff wasn’t horrible, but you get the sense that Backland is definitely leading this dance. I liked Backland’s attempts at leg work and the fact he was kicking out at one while gaining two count near falls on Koloff. Koloff’s control segments are pretty cool, as he keeps the heat on Backland, and the diving knee rules. I love how intense it gets after Backland comes up cut on until the stoppage finish. This was totally a finish you’d see in modern day MMA that would draw a larger house for the rematch (I know some people hate the MMA references, but it’s true). This match is definitely too long (30 minutes), but I assume this was the typical style of MSG main event in length and structure (anyone more knowledgeable chime in). It’s not exactly what I want out of my wrestling, but it may have been close in 1978.

I'm new, so forgive my long-windedness at times. I wrote out a whole thing for my blog and decided to post my thoughts here too. Great moment at the beginning when they give the ceremonial flowers out and Murdoch launches them into the crowd. I’m surprised at how hold-based the match is, and coming off of see the first Dragon Gate USA show live, it’s a big switch. I love the progressions and logic, though at times it’s a bit too slow for my tastes right now. I think a commentary I could understand over the match would help with some dead spots, but it’s really a question of mood anyway. Murdoch and Adonis are a great team, who are really great at controlling the ring and making quick tags. It’s a bit lost on the newer style, which is usually tagging to set up a big double high spot. I’m reminded that I own a Murdoch/Adonis in NJ comp, and I’m hoping the NJ 80s set will make me wanna bust that out as I see what made the ballot and what didn’t. I should also mention that Murdoch and Adonis bump great for these guys when they do lose control of the match. I have trouble telling Fujinami and Kimura apart (same black tights and boots) since I’m new to seeing them (read about them forever), but they are really great fiery babyfaces when they make their runs, and the heel cut offs are great too. I loved the section where Murdoch kept getting greedy for a second shoulder block, and Adonis would have to come in and make the save for him after he got caught. I learned from Mid South to love Murdoch and his punches, but in this match it’s all about how great he is at selling punches and swinging wildly back. This match is awesome for how the heel control segments flow into the Japanese hope spots and comebacks. They keep coming so close to getting over on those big ugly Americans, and then it’s snatched away continually. Adonis’ bumping might be more impressive in some respects than Murdoch, and that was a revelation for me (forgiving some of the theatrics at times). The finish came a bit out of nowhere for me, but not every match is perfect, and this was a good primer for the NJ set. I do think Murdoch and Adonis got to much of the match, but I’m guessing this was a match with some overall booking thought long term or storyline wise, so who knows what came after this (perhaps the NJ 80s committee does). Oh, and the Murdoch/Adonis celebratory handshake is classic!

Alright,my top 20 and bottom ten are below for this set. A great experience that really was even better than I imagined. Helped me get my butt in gear with a blog to keep track of the matches, so that was cool. I got to read alot of thoughts from other people also watching. Gained alot of wrestling knowledge from the period. Could this be any better?! Bring on ano ther set! oh, and pretty much anything in my top 60-80 I'd re-watch at the drop of a hat. I tried to focus on the top 20 like Goodhelmet had wisely mentioned elsewhere and truthfully, these are all seperated by sheets of paper they are so close. 1. Ted DiBiase vs. Hacksaw Duggan (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Tuxedo, Cage match ) (3/22/85) [bR-14] 2. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (9/22/85) [bW-1] 3. Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85) [RNRIK-7] 4. Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. Midnight Express (2/10/84) [PTB-16] 5. Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (5/4/85) [RNRIK-4] 6. Magnum T.A. vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (Tulsa 5/27/84) [sDM-2] 7. Hacksaw Duggan, Terry Taylor & Bill Watts vs. The Fabulous Freebirds (8/17/86) [bSUSA-8] 8. Mr. Olympia vs. Chavo Guerrero (6/24/83) [PTB-13] 9. Dick Slater vs. Jake Roberts (No DQ, Dark Journey In A Cage) (2/28/86) [TB-9] 10. Butch Reed vs. Ric Flair (10/11/85) [bW-4] 11. Dirty White Boys vs. Terry Daniels & Bill Dundee (5/11/85) [RNRIK-6] 12. Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/85) [RNRIK-3] 13. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (10/14/85) [bW-6] 14. Magnum T.A. vs. Ted DiBiase (7/6/84) [sDM-5] 15. Terry Gordy vs. Dr. Death (9/15/86) [bSUSA-11] 16. Midnight Express vs. Rock N Roll Express (No DQ: Tag Titles vs. $50,000) (5/23/84) [PTB-20] 17. Dick Murdoch vs. The Nightmare (7/14/85) [TSGDIA-5] 18. Buzz Sawyer vs. Dr. Death (1/28/86) [JGP-17] 19. The Fantastics vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (10/12/84) [sDM-13] 20. Ted DiBiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85) [bW-8] Bottom 10: 140. Eddie Gilbert & Dick Murdoch vs. Lightning Express (7/21/87) [bITUSA-14] 141. Dick Murdoch vs. Dr. Death (9/20/85) [TSGDIA-12] 142. The Fantastics vs. Dutch Mantell & Bill Dundee (10/4/85) [bW-2] 143. Chavo Guerrero vs. Steve Keirn (no DQ loser is painted yellow match) (1/31/86) [TB-2] 144. Dusty Rhodes & Jim Duggan vs. Butch Reed & Hercules Hernandez (8/19/84) [sDM-8] 145. Butch Reed vs. Skip Young (9/23/84) [sDM-10] 146. Bob Roop vs. Mike George (12/16/81) [PTB-1] 147. Jim Duggan, Dick Murdoch & Bill Watts vs. Kamala, Kareem Muhammad & Skandor Akbar (7/28/85)[TSGDIA-9] 148. Dick Slater vs. Butch Reed (No DQ) (12/13/85) [JGP-2] 149. One Man Gang vs. Buck Robley (Lumberjack Match) (9/15/82) [PTB-7] 150. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (Scaffold Match) (12/2/84) [bR-3]

Not much for my first post here, but I caught this today from the Meltzer update: "-The Watts family is releasing a DVD called Giants, Midgets, Heros and villains II featuring old Mid South Wrestling matches like Ric Flair vs. Ted DiBiase, DiBiase & King Kong Bundy vs. Steve Williams & Magnum T.A., Midnight Express vs. Jim Duggan & Junkyard Dog, Williams vs. Duggan, One Man Gang vs Duggan, Flair vs. Kerry Von Erich, JYD vs. Bundy, One Man Gang & The Assassin vs. Ernie Ladd & Mike Sharpe, Butch Reed vs Jim Neidhart, Andre the Giant & JYD & Mil Mascaras vs. Killer Khan & Gino Hernandez & Tully Blanchard, JYD vs. Missing Link, Buzz Sawyer & Dick Slater vs. The Fantastics and a lot more." Not great, but I guessw interesting. I'm about ten matches away from having the set done. Having gotten to see most of this for the first time I am confused by Watts' ex-wife not selling the collection to the McMahons. These DVDs they put out look average at best, and sure they have one or two matches you want in great quality, but after seeing what value you can get in a set like we just watched, I don't think most hardcore fans would be running to buy. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Selfishly I'd like to watch the TV in chron. order in perfect quality with new JR wrap arounds, so I'd like to see them sell it. I'd also love, maybe for perverse reasons, to see the WWE and people like Ross and Hayes fight over the voice of a Rise and Fall of Mid South DVD. I can't imagine they (Former Mrs. Watts) are making more money overall from distributing these single DVD sets, even when added up.