El-P

He's got half the brain that you do.

No band T-shirt though.

He was talking strictly about the jeans shorts + T-shirt though.

You realize that people around him got heat *because* they were around him, not the other way around ? You'll argue that Van Hammer, Billy Kidman, Saturn and Reese got Raven over in WCW ? You'll argue that Stevie Richards is the one who got Raven over and not the other way around (especially when Raven was the one coming up with pretty much all of Stevie's material and goofy stuff, a fact Richards acknowledges himself) ? Raven really needed Peaches and Blue Meanie to get heat ? Come on. I know you hate the guy, but let's at least be fair. The character may not be for everyone, but to say he sucked at it is nonsense. The one time Raven let a more talented guy cut promos for him is during the short stint Cactus Jack did with him.

Blame BHL (Bernard-Henri Levy). Guys like him or Alain Finkelkraut are media attention whores. But I'm not sure you can call these guys philosophers. Not exactly an expert on that field. But Gilles Deleuze they aren't.

He took credit for it at least. The T-shirt wearing was to hide his flat chest.

Goldberg wins on every level, except for promos. Much more entertaining squashes and matches. Looked the part but didn't look like a giant wimp or clown when he got inside the ring. Plus his career is so much shorter.

Ok I wasn't sure. That being said, neither Saturn nor Raven were pushed in the WWF at that point.

If we're talking about the "flock disolves if Saturn wins the match" stuff, by the end of the match, the crowd was going apeshit. Don't let the facts got in the way of a good story when Raven is involved I guess... Anyway. I never said he was a great wrestler and had great matches, that would be outrageous (well, not more outrageous than some recent claim of greatness), but he was good, and he put together the most entertaining clusterfucks of I've ever seen. Loved his character, look and promos (the first depressed wrestler ever), loved his sense of humour (make no mistake about it, *he*'s the one responsible for all those hysterical Stevie Richards impersonations and angle in ECW). Could take a beating like no one else. Not the most athletic guy ever (and he pokes fun at himself quite a bit in those 40 hours of shoot interviews), was lazy at times, but he remains one of the most fun wrestler I had the pleasure of watching. Scott Levy is everything good and fun about wrestling.

That got a laugh out of me !

Agreed. The other thing is that they aren't just part-timers. They are, for the most part, nostalgia part-timers. Guys from the past.

Pez Whatley was still a pretty good worker when I saw him in WCW as a job guy in the early 90's so no, I wouldn't put him there. Patterson and Cash, yeah, not very good...

Does Brian Adams work here ? I mean, he was pretty much always a terrible worker. I think the only time I moderately enjoyed his work was during the ridiculous colorful Kona Crush period.

That's Chris Adams for you. Not Brian. Brian was overused and I want him away from my TV set immediately.

Thanks for the nice compliment.

I agree. Golden is not *bad*. He's just to me what I.R.S. is to you.

In all honesty, and although everything I said about Spike is exactly what I think, my first reply was more of an in-joke, but I guess it didn't come through that way because I didn't use a freaking smiley. Dry humour doesn't work apparently. Once you got back with "especially ridiculous", yeah, I kinda took it personnal which is why I mentionned Golden (who is more dull than bad, although he was actively bad at times too in WCW) and McMahon (who sucks but I don't even consider him a worker anyway). And despite not being around for too long, I don't think Spike has never been any good, so there it is. (Glad you finally used Spike and shitty in the same sentence though...)

No, because Raven is really good. Has Spike Dudley been mentioned in this thread ? Unlike you I wasn't trolling. Raven sucks shit and has forever. The idea that he is "really good" now is especially ridiculous. The idea of Spike Dudley being a good worker sounds equally as ridiculous to me. The idea of Jimmy Golden being anything but a horribly boring and dull worker is equally as ridiculous. The idea that Vince McMahon is worth anything as a worker is equally ridiculous to me. So no, I'm not trolling any less than you are. During my ECW watch I would end up FF Spike's matches after some time because he was so unbearable to me. Everything about him sucked to me, and he was only bearable when he was thrown into the crowd by Bam Bam. I'd be happy to never watch another match involving Spike Dudley in my life. So yeah, he's a good candidate for this thread from where I stand. So yeah, I think Raven is a good worker, absolutely great at taking and selling a beating, and overall really fun to watch. (EDIT : and if that makes me having horrible taste in wrestling, no problem, I love my horrible taste at this point)

No, because Raven is really good. Has Spike Dudley been mentioned in this thread ?

You'll probably get crucified for it, but yeah. Never thought he was worth a damn as a worker. Hated pretty much every thing I've seen him involved in as a"wrestler".

And it's not over. WEEK 13 (March 29, April 03 1999) Bizarre turn of the week : Diamond Dallas Page basically showing heavy signs of turning heel (Nitro). First we get a very strange, overdirected, overenergetic, overacted interview with Mike Tenay in which Tenay looks like he's on coke (or simply too much caffeine), and DDP brushes him off when he calls him the "people's champion". First sign of heelness. Then, the Canada crowd (this is Nitro's first Canadian broadcast, from Toronto) gives him a heel reaction, despite having him argue with Flair, who's clearly a heel now. He gets paired up with Hogan, who got a huge babyface reaction, for an okay Nitro main event. Hey, it doesn't make a whole lotta sense except if you go to the route of "DDP is sick of playing nice which ended up with Kim getting injured, so he's gonna take care of business now.", but his face run was getting tired at this point. We'll see how it will play out the following week back in the good ol'US of A. Angle of the week : You know the one. Bret Hart challenges Goldberg, who KO's himself on a hidden metal plate while spearing Bret. Bret gets a huge reaction, he's clearly a big star in Canada at this point, easily the biggest star of the night. The angle is really well done although I think Bret sold the spear too long. But anyway, this is as close as classic stuff as anything that WCW would produce that year. I totally forgot about the "Hey Bischoff ! I quit." line after the angle though. Bret getting all frustrated was the way to go since it was real. Of course a tragedy would scrap the whole thing. Match of the week : Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko vs Rey Mysterio Jr. & Kidman (Nitro). Malenko is much better against fellow cruiserweight. Rey vs Benoit is as great as it sounds. One of the best TV match of the year thus far, maybe the very best. Raven shows up and screws the champs around, Rey ends up being a double champion. This is a title change I had totally forgot. Nice build for the PPV, as we'll get Raven & Saturn vs Horsemen, and tag partners Rey and Kidman going at it for the cruiserweight title. At least some intrigue in the undercard and around the title belts. Promo of the week : Chris Jericho (Nitro). I thought Jericho was done at this point. After all he's not on job duty. Well, he cuts a classic, easy but fun promo totally sucking up to the canadian audience, which sounds right since heel Bret was a babyface here too. Except Jericho ends up turing them upside down at the end and gets a huge chorus of boos. Well done, as the crowd loved the hell out of him when he showed up. His match with Chris Adams was yet another proof that Adams was one of the most underused and underrated worker in the country at this time. Really stupid to not use him at a TV title level like they did with Regal or Finlay at one point. "Spot that doesn't exist" of the week : The Big Wiggle. Norman had been off TV for some time, and then when he showed up he didn't use the Wiggle anymore. It became very clear on Thunder, as when Norman picked up a sign in the alley (which probably refered to the wiggle), the director cut to a crowd shot, then the announcers talked about the big wiggle having been the center of controversy. And later in the match, as Norman was obviously teasing the wiggle, we get another crowd shot while the annoucers wonder if Norman actually did the move as he got a big reaction. Now, I understand the Big Wiggle was really a rather crass move, but it was over as all hell, and the WWF was doing way worse on the other channel. It really harmed Norman's push I think. He's the one who ended up taking it doggystyle. Undercard feud match of the week : Barbarian & Hugh Morrus vs Meng & Jerry Flynn (Saturday Night). Nothing special, but Barbie is always fun, as is Flynn. I'm not a big fan of Da Monster Meng, he's doing way too much no-selling for my taste. And Hugh Morrus, well, Hugh Morrus, as competent as he is, really doesn't strike me as "underrated" or "underused". I'll get back to this when/if I get to the Captain Rection days... Stiff little match. Fun. Line of the week : "That wasn't me, that was Tommy, goof !" Saturn to Raven telling the story of them fighting at summer camp over "that girl Beulah McGillicuty". Raven clearly didn't give a shit anymore and was just having fun. And I love harmless interpromotional overlaping. The US tournament is still going on. It seems. Although there are no bracket at all and we have no idea who's in it and what's going on. The nWo B-Team feud still gets vignettes and matches on damn near every show, unbearable. And we still get vignettes about David Flair and such despite the fact his whole deal seems to have completely crashed with the apparent demise of the nWo as a coherent unit and the upside-downing of the heel-face structure in the company. Seriously, Hogan is apparently a babyface (and after all he's done to WCW Gene is back to licking his balls, which drives me nuts), Kevin Nash some sort of tweener, Scott Steiner is full fledge heel, as is Luger but he seems to be gone while nursing his injury (no more Liz on TV, snif). Oh, I almost forgot, there was a Sting sighting on Nitro. In the rafters. Wearing white and black (remember he was a part of the Wölfpack last time he was around). This is a complete mess. When you add DDP who's apparently turning heel too... Ok. Enough. Head aches.

Well, WCW kickstarted the wrestling boom with the nWo era, then WWF catch up with Austin & Bret and exploded into the dreaded Attitude Era. I don't remember when they began to use the term. I do remember the atrociously obnoxious "Get it ?" campaign in early 1999, when the product had already been Russoed to death. I wonder if you can still call 2000/01 the Attitude era, as Russo was gone by then and I would guess the TV product got much better (the PPV product whicj I'm more familiar with surely was). Nash's booking of WCW in 99 shows a lot of Russo influence too : nonsensical turns nearly every week, a completely structureless company in term of clear heels and face as a result and backtage vignettes with the godawful "invisible camera" (and worst : vignettes that supposedly played like a TV series, as the characters aren't aware of what happens in those vingettes when they don't take part in it, resulting in total confusion. The entire David Flair fiasco is basically done entirely with these kind of vignettes, as is the awful nWo B-team leader feud).

Aja. One of my all-time favourites. I really need to go back to joshi one of these days, or years. I'll say Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo from 12/09/1993, because I loved Kudo too.

Chris Benoit was a very Althusserian worker...

I'll thow my two cents, and since I havent watched 90's puro in ages, I'll go for the first one who comes to mind, Hash vs Choshu from the G1 Climax 96. Awesome final. Simple and basic as hell, but man dit that work for me.