MJH

Whilst it's an obvious correlation to make... but in the two-and-a-bit years since Benoit's been on NJPW Classics shows countless times, right? I don't know if you get them in the States but the re-releases "tagged classics" that WWE have out on DVD over here have featured Benoit matches without cutting them out. I understand not highlighting him or inundating him with praise on the Eddy or Rey DVD sets, say, but there's no reason for them to erase him completely. Surely there's a comparison to film or whatever of an actor/director who did something akin to what Benoit did and their films still get shown?

Firstly I'm definitely with Dylan regarding the WW3 match with Ultimo. Once Ultimo's in control, Rey does one inside cradle, and blocks a dive (which Ultimo them immediately counters the whip to the guardrail from)... before Ultimo eventually gives him a pretty weak transition for the comeback, Rey gets some cool spots in, finish. Ultimo's control is fairly all-over-the-place too but it's certainly spectacular, chock-full of great offence that looks great, it just feels pretty random. Really, Rey's WCW run is dwarfed behind the Havoc match with Eddy. But I'm in the boat of a LOT of NJ juniors/WCW cruisers stuff doesn't hold up as great matches. Spectacular, sure, especially the Rey/Juvy/Psicosis stuff, and they're clearly very, very talented workers from Liger and Ohtani through whomever... but Benoit and Eddy's stuff, in general, holds up far better than most others and their "sleepers" match is the best NJ match with Eddy/Rey, obviously, the best WCW one. It's not a case of people not wanting to re-evaluate "consensus" opinions. I don't think Ohtani was a great seller. At times, sure, but he'd no-sell for his comebacks as much as anyone. The Samurai match I'm not a "MOTYC" supporter of; I don't think there was anything to it other than one guy works the arm, the other works the leg, and they actually followed through on it. It's very good *as that*, but really you need a bit more depth and story to have a great match for me. Liger/Ohtani matches... meh. I think Kobashi/Misawa 10/98 was easilly their second best match together and the last All Japan uber-classic rather than the Kawada match in June (which is great too mind), it's not about sticking to age-old "x is great and y isn't" beliefs. I think Lawler's very good I just don't think he's a Top 5 US worker. As far as Takada goes... I can see the argument of "great wrestler who did shoot-style" as opposed to "great shoot-style wrestler" to a degree, however... the Yamazaki matches, Backlund, Maeda... if you made a list of best matches through the first two UWFs and scored it on points for the wrestlers involved, Takada'd score as well as anyone. Maybe he wasn't a great "everyday" shoot-style wrestler and maybe didn't go out of his way to carry Miyato or Nakano to strong matches... but he hit the heights as well if not better than anyone. So-and-so being "lazy" in minor matches means nothing to me. Look how quickly Kobashi's body broke down, or Sakie Hasegawa for maybe a better example because she had to retire. I don't want to see a running back average 150-200 yards through the first 10 or so games and be done by the time the play offs come around, y'know?

Like I said before, if Rey nixed Dolph getting the belt, it certainly can't've been anything personal judging by how good he's made Ziggler look. If one of the bargaining chips of his new deal was a long title reign than he's more than within his rights to keep it that way.

I'll admit to being a very sceptical, hard sell on Lawler and Fujiwara. Before them it was Backlund. They strike me as "crazes". I'm not saying that to be outright dismissive of them, and in a lot of ways it's certainly warranted. Backlund was very good at what he did. So was Lawler. Fujiwara I can still swing either way on but he was good, possibly very good, and I'm willing to accept that he might've had a few great matches and/or performances (I just haven't seen them yet). I remember when Backlund really "came out" and people were saying how he carried Takada. How Lawler showed "great knowledge of headlock/base hold counters and spots" against Harley when things like the bridge up spot were routine Harley spots. Fujiwara I can accept as being "very good" but "best ever" is SUCH a jump from someone who had relative anonymity as a worker until fairly recently. I mean I haven't seen the entire Memphis set and there's a few of the highly-touted matches I'm yet to see. I thought the matches with Dundee were great in their setting and for what they were but MOTYC for the decade is a stretch for me. Something like the Empty Arena match and Funk is on another level entirely as a performer, for me. Of course in that case it was really Terry's match to make and Lawler held up his end but putting him over Benoit because his matches "felt bigger, more special", could you not say the same about Hogan? I'm not saying Hogan was as good as Lawler the same way I'm not saying Hogan was better than Benoit before that gets misquoted but I'm saying if I pick a Benoit match off the shelf and a Lawler match and watch them back to back, I'm certain I'd see Benoit as a more gifted, more elite level wrestler. Sure Lawler was great in certain aspects, so was Hogan. At what Hogan was you could hardly get anymore elite... but I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not dismissing Lawler as a hack or anything, I just think "US worker of the 80s" "best US worker ever?" and all that jazz seem a little over the top to me. With regards to the Fujiwara/Takada thing Dan I don't know... Takada's coming off beating Maeda and Yamazaki. Fujiwara's coming off Maeda's "reassertion" win and would then lose to Yamazaki. Their results stack up throughout the year as relatively equal, both went on to put Funaki over to build him for Maeda, Takada got his win back against Fujiwara... I can buy them as being on the same level, but Fujiwara's reaction to winning surely tells the story? That result, the reaction of both the crowd and him, the feel I get from Fujiwara taking points off Takada, I certainly get the sense he's supposed to be the overmatched of the two in that situation. Takada still looked the better of the two for me, put Fujiwara's schtick over far more than Fuji returned the favour; either way he certainly didn't strike me as on the level that Takada would hit or Jumbo or whomever around that time, but I guess it's an agree to disagree thing. Best Worker of All Time just strikes me as hyperbolic, that's all. -- Barry vs. Arn Barry's hit with the same curse of "unfulfilled potential" that paints his work far more negatively than it should. He was certainly a more naturally gifted worker than Arn, and with regards to that a more disappointing wrestler for not having become the successor to Flair or what-have-you but Windham's best stuff is better than Arn's I think. I prefer Tully over Arn too, all-in-all, although in a tag setting they're equal if not Arn taking it, and Arn's promos are the best of the three. But overall as a wrestler I'm taking Barry. Casas vs. Santo Casas at his best is a fantabulastic performer. His charisma and performance in their '87 match is just otherworldly. But I also find him disappointing at various times as well. His Japan stuff doesn't reflect a "Best Mexican Wrestler Ever" rep when you consider how significantly better Eddy adapted. I'm more than willing to accept Eddy as a better fit for the Juniors division, of course, but stuff like the Dandy match in '92 I find terribly disappointing. With Santo, I can agree with Dan's "formula worker" assessment... but at the same time (and maybe as a result) he's a far safer bet for me as someone I'll take a DVD/video of down off the shelf at random, stick it in, and really enjoy it. The Espanto matches (thanks Dan) are great, the Panther stuff, obviously the Casas stuff; something like the Psicosis match from '95 is greatly disappointing to me but that looked more like Psicosis end... Casas at his best is probably better but in this case I'm gonna go for Santo.

I don't have any qualms with someone arguing Benoit was "limited". He got past "no charisma" but he never developed anywhere near the charisma Eddy did. I've seen him work trios in Mexico where he looks hopelessly out of place. Absolutely fantastic but totally out of place doing his ultra-crisp back suplexes whilst Dandy and company are rolling around. But he was clearly an elite talent at his best, whereas I just don't see Lawler as an elite talent. I've enjoyed just about everything I've ever seen him do but I'm not about to argue him over an Eddy Guerrero as Best US Wrestler Of All Time... and if he was where's the greater fame for Lawler as an equal to Harley or Flair or Terry? Talent of that calibre always eventually rises. I'm not saying he wasn't content with his Memphis run - I'm sure he was - but where's the talk of him as a big time player in the NWA title scene, where's the bigger-money interest in him as a national if not international star? Again I greatly enjoy his work, but an elite talent equivalent to where Benoit was at for 10-15 years (who was able to get over in major US promotions pretty much solely on his work) would've surely been a bigger global player? If there's reasons why I'm open to hearing them but it's the same sorta "if Fujiwara was the best ever why are people only making the case for him now..." thing. Elite talent doesn't miss the radar.

Granted they have 'Taker back, but losing Jeff AND Rey is a big loss for Smackdown. Jeff's certainly more popular than he is good but Rey's as good a candidate as anyone for "best worker in the company" and if you think that means nothing, look how great he made Ziggler look at SummerSlam because that was a Rey match through and through, his version of Misawa-by-numbers. Ziggler held up his end (and has improved a lot) but you can't overlook who he was working with. Rey pulling rope to keep the belt was a good thing for Dolph anyway, the longer he works with Rey, it's only going to help him improve faster than working, say, Morrison. There's another guy who'd benefit from a feud with Rey, might help him quit dancing/skipping around the ring. And I agree with the "switch on house show" for both the business reason... AND it'll still keep with "Ziggler can't get it done ON THE BIG SHOW" but as soon as "suspended effective Wednesday September 2nd..." was printed on the website you knew why.

Hase vs. Choshu Hase. Choshu had things and could do things Hase couldn't do (and I'm willing to go back and re-evaluate my opinion) and a lot of that has been brought up in this discussion but Hase is/was so dynamic - for lack of a better word - he's probably my favourite New Japan wrestler (if we don't count Takada). The Takada match from '88 and the Chono match from '93 are two of the most overlooked matches ever in the company. The Takada match has had some play but it's the Takada/Koshinaka feud that gets most of the plaudits for that time. The Chono match is simply a great match. Plus I dig that whole "mirror" structure anyway. Dynamite Kid vs. Marty Jones This is going to sound like I'm flipping on my argument in Hase/Choshu to a degree, but I'm voting Dynamite because he was a far more special worker. Jones is very good just about every time I see him, but Dynamite's one of those guys who people focus on the flaws way to much because he's had such a rep for so long. Sure, I agree with just about all the criticism labelled his way, but the upside there can't be ignored. It's like Toyota (who I'd rate over him FTR). I don't think Jones is good enough to make up the difference. Besides, Dynamite is clearly the better of the two in their match, his athleticism/execution are/were just phenomenal at that point. Like OJ alluded to, had he stayed in Europe and not gotten his international rep, and had he just recently been "discovered" in the big surge on World of Sport these last few years, he'd be everyone's favourite wrestler right now or not far off it. Benoit vs. Lawler I have ZERO problem watching Benoit. The best comparison I can give is had something happened when Brian Wilson went off the rails, sure it'd "taint" him in the eyes of most critics but the second those first few bars of God Only Knows comes on... I'm not thinking about that at all. Benoit was elite. His and Guerrero's stuff holds up considerably better for me out of the New Japan juniors of that time. Liger and Ohtani's stuff surprisingly (at least with Liger) less so. I have no real objection to Lawler but this "best US worker ever" talk just seems hyperbolic to me. Lawler's more Taue than Kawada. A very good but limited wrestler as opposed to a great one. Fucking love those punches though. Benoit's the better. Fujiwara best Japanese Wrestler ever... I'd probably have my top 3/4 wrestlers ever as Japanese so for me the question is really is Fujiwara the best worker ever? And I'm saying no. Ignoring for a second the idea that the best ever would've been overlooked up until fairly recently as a rather preposterous one... for me Takada's the best worker of that UWF group. The Fujiwara thing is a bit like Lawler where it strikes me as somewhat hyperbolic. I'm not saying he isn't a good wrestler or even a very good one, but there's "here's an overlooked strong worker" and then turning it into "best ever??" in that rush. Beyer's burst holds up to enough of a degree to have warranted it but I don't recall people putting him over the Jumbos and Kawadas and Kobashis. I watched his match with Takada from February 1990 the other night, for instance. Fujiwara looked good. But... not elite. Not better than Takada. The story's a fairly simple one of Takada's dominant, but Fujiwara's wily and able to sneak a shocking win out using cunningness or whatever "there's still something left in this old dog" yadda yadda. But I didn't get that strong a feeling he was selling that story. The finish amounted to essentially a no-sell by Fujiwara from a legbar. When Takada'd really need an authoritive return from dropping a point as a re-affirmation of who "the man" is there, Fujiwara only really gave it to him once maybe twice. He didn't go down off strikes in any real emphatic way and it was really Takada who was putting Fujiwara over the entire match with the old "oh I'm in trouble" turn of body language whereas I didn't get the same from Fujiwara. His grinning felt more akin to Billy Robinson's rep for "screwing" with guys rather than anything else I can't recall feeling all that much during the match that Fujiwara was in trouble anywhere near as much as Takada would seem at times and for an underdog story to work (which I can only assume would be the idea) that just doesn't work. He has a good case as "best trainer ever" but best worker ever I'm not getting at all... I'm also taking Hogan over Dusty (except on promos...) and Rock over Cena. Both pairings are between similar guys and I just think the emboldened two did it better... I like all four in varying degrees but Hogan and the Rock for me pretty comfortably.

One for the detractors - HHH against Flair in the cage (having re-watched it the other night after speaking up for it recently) might be one of the best heel performances ever in WWF/E, and one of the best laid-out Flair matches I've ever seen. The long-established heel getting a standing ovation when he leaves is strange but very-much deserved.

Actually I'd say it's a common Shawn match of the time, to an extent at least. A lot of his face stuff during that time was quite light-hearted. The Owen IYH match is another (I agree with both sentiments that they could've done WAY more with the enzuigiri angle BUT that Owen wasn't really the right sort of heel for it). I'm sure there's a spot in the Raw HHH match he did where he drags Hunter into the ring by his nose. I've a clearer recollection of the Owen and Jeff matches than the HHH one, not having seen that in a good few years, but they're fun and entertaining and that's all they were meant to be. Part of Shawn's character was as a fun-loving, outgoing, "life of the party" kinda guy who wanted to give entertaining performances. Obviously there's the camp overtones and quite where the idea to pull a Jim Morrison at the end of the '96 Rumble came from I don't know but they're there to separate himself entirely and have his own niche well apart from Bret (serious) and Taker (dark). Thinking about it, it's probably the reason why the concussion angle, and the way they handled the marine incident, worked as well as they did. But yeah, I like the match, though I'm a bigger Shawn fan than most.

Now I actually enjoyed what HHH did with Khali at SummerSlam; outside of a high flyer doing crazy moves and bumps (and would you trust Khali to catch them well?) I can't honestly visualise a better put together Khali match pulled off as well. Monster vs. Pedigree and the pedigree won out, barely. Of course now he's shown the boys he can work a good (relatively speaking) match with Khali I don't see Hunter being too interested in him anymore... But this is one of either two things... bullshit, or - and I actually quite like where the guy's coming from - a hint that Jeff's coming out with the belt at the PPV after how they got Eddy's stuff "in the open" before he beat Lesnar. I don't really see that happening (Jeff winning) unless HHH is getting the heel turn he's wanted for a while (so I believe) and that's gonna be the feud and this is an early foreshadow. As far as him pedigreeing the heels one by one at the end. US Psychology 101 is that in an equal situation (1-on-1, 2-on-2) without the heel having a chance to cheat, the babyface is the better wrestler and will win every time. I've no problem with that at all, really, although it's more likely the end of (live) show pop and send the crowd home happy, excited and ready to come again etc...