Ditch

I honestly had no idea how things broke down as far as what people have seen, so I asked. And people did a lot more commenting than I expected, for instance showing just how many don't watch joshi and/or deathmatches. As I say at Purotopia, I myself was initially disappointed by half the stuff listed, and a couple items probably aren't the right picks (for instance KOTDM '95) in 2009 regardless of whether it's a long-time puro-fan or a newer vintage. Tom intimates that people are likely say they've seen more than they have. For thread replies, maybe, though pretty much every 'newer' person admits to plenty they haven't seen. Anyway the poll itself is anonymous, far more than the average survey. Just talking to someone on the phone or whatever makes you want to give a good impression of yourself. I wouldn't expect anyone to reply who had seen almost none of the big '90s matches, but some did put a check mark in the lower tier options. But even then, per Tom's last post in this thread, just having seen 6/3/94 is only part of it. Codegreen, someone like myself who is so obsessed with getting as much feedback as possible regarding 'best of' things can't be too picky about only having the stalwarts participate. Early in the process someone suggested we do closed nominations among the old-timers when it came to the best of 2000-2005, but I'd rather have more participation even if it's someone who has only been into puro long enough to see a fraction of the classics. Because even relative newbies have guided me to matches I like, nay love. And that's what I'm in this for!

What do you mean by 'inform discussion' or 'inform their writing'? A lack of references to it and/or matches like it? Lack of perspective? Also I'm wondering what you mean by "people currently writing about puro". I get a strong sense that there's a couple people specifically who stick in your proverbial craw. I try my best to seek out places where puro is actually discussed in any meaningful sense as opposed to an "Indies/Foreign" ghetto on a WWE board, and I really don't see current discussion being dominated by the faction you're talking about. I don't have access to F4W so things might be just as you say, but that's still only one place.

Eh, no. I think it's possible to split puro fandom into a couple chunks, for instance the long-term people who did tape trading, people like myself who discovered it late 90s/early 00s as the IWC got big, and newer fans who found it through ROH and file sharing. This board is heavy on the first two, light on the last. DVDVR's puro board is lighter on the first, heavier on the latter, but you still have a solid core of people who have watched all the classics, and even today's newbies are still likely to have seen at least a handful of the most-pimped stuff from past decades. Heck, Pro Wrestling Torrents did a big 'top 100 matches' poll several years apart, and for a place that skews younger and WWE-er than somewhere like here, the puro support went overwhelmingly towards '90s over recent years. Misawa vs Kawada 6/3/94 is still one of the five most broadly seen Japanese matches, if not #1. Of course there are the occasional stupid comments on message boards, but the newbies shall always be with us. It is worth mentioning that a lot of the 'old-timers' have stopped paying attention to current puro, so as far as discussion of current puro as opposed to puro in general, yeah I suppose that skews toward relative newbies who aren't as aware of how much better the '90s were. Your post gives me an idea.

I'm having a hard time blocking off free time to finish Terry's book. When I do I'll call again to schedule.

Of course a big reason for worked older matches was that EVERY SINGLE ONE was driven by gambling. The more money a sport generates, ah, legitimately (tickets, media rights, merchandise) the less sway gambling has. MMA got its start in the modern era of pay-per-view, so even though there are works and questionable outcomes (especially in the '90s), there's a big financial incentive for promotions to have legit outcomes and for fighters to get ahead honestly. Compare to the 1800s when it would be impossible to make a living on ticket sales alone. That said boxing would have the same excuse, and that's been around the entire time and now has far more respect than pro wrestling despite plenty of shady incidents in its past. Boxing was never as heavily worked as wrestling... but then it's harder to work getting punched in the face a dozen times compared to doing grappling. MMA is probably what wrestling would have become had it not gone all-work.

Dammit that should be OUR boys hurling themselves to an early death!

Every time I thought I'd seen all the drama surrounding UWF 1.0...

In my first viewing I was on the edge of my seat because I though that if it was 1-0 then that would mean Jumbo won the title. Granted I knew he never was NWA champ, but I was sucked in enough that I forgot. Then afterwards I realized 1-0 in 2/3 falls isn't enough. However I think the FANS felt the way I did in the closing minutes.

The point is that someone who's SO vexed and SO badly wants something better is better off putting in the time to look for said better thing. Someone with time to write anti-diva screeds on the internet, doubly so. Though I suppose people who just have a problem with females should be investing that time on a PHD's couch rather than watching joshi.

I spoke with someone who was front row, and said the crowd just wanted Benoit to win already. But I don't buy it, that was a crappy crowd even if the match is a slightly overrated technical exhibition.

People who gripe about divas are watching the wrong wrestling show. I used to hate time spent on matches that were 95% sub-standard and 1% actively good, because it took time away from top male wrestlers. Now I have no problem because I watch wrestling promotions that focus on wrestling. And even then, the ladies would take up like one or two-thirds of one segment on a TV show, hardly a deal-breaker unless the show is pretty marginal overall. I will agree that Finlay worked wonders but it's still rarely much better than watchable outside of instances where two good athletes who started outside WWE or TNA are in there. Overall I can't imagine getting really worked up about it one way or another. Though I'm still amused by people who were just stunned by how good Trish became, as though no woman on the planet had managed to reach that level before.

I don't think people who rabidly defend diva matches really need to be worried about, let alone constitute a widespread myth/meme.

http://wrestlingperspective.com/working/18...ttimes0405.html Easy match of the 18th century candidate. edit: Durrrr

Considering that TIME MAGANIZE was breaking kayfabe in the '30s...

Then why were fans trying to literally kill heels? Or was that just the 1%...

The TKO was a fireman's carry into a cutter. I more mean that's how topics normally wind up.

What's more, the study looked at present and PAST fans of WCW (and I think NWA). And the biggest complaint that the fans who left had was with the lack of wrestling in the post-Russo era.

F5 is kinda goofy, and since it was created for Lesnar it would seem like a rip-off for anyone else to do it stateside. Ditto (somewhat) the jackhammer. Like, if HHH was out of wrestling now it would be weird to have guys doing the pedigree outside of an ironic context like Jimmy Rave. Very much agreed on the gourdbuster, however it really depends on who does it. In the wrong hands it would either look weak or be dangerous. Fine for the indies or Japan, probably okay for TNA, but doubtful that WWE would let wrestlers tread that particular fine line. The slingshot suplex would probably work better with today's tighter ropes. Could be wrong. Something like a slingshot jackhammer would come across as novel. I'm a big fan of the "one-arm" / "dragon" backbreaker (belly-to-back suplex into backbreaker). Done really well by Billy Robinson, now only done by Masao Inoue. Speaking of which, Inoue also sometimes does Ted DiBiase Sr's Million Dollar Buster (cobra clutch side legsweep to pinning combination). Both would come across as something unique in the vast majority of today's promotions. George Steele's hanging chickenwing and Steamboat's hanging double-chickenwing are both cool but wouldn't work in the "guy doesn't give up and stays in the hold for three and a half minutes" spot that 99% of finisher submissions wind up in at some point. edit: I think these types of threads always suffer from a lack of context. Are we just talking about WWE, or wrestling as a whole. Because a hell of a lot of moves are used as the finish by at least one or two active wrestlers somewhere in the world.

To my knowledge, TNA wasn't making a profit during the weekly PPV days or the Fox days. At some point while on Spike they started making a profit despite higher payroll costs. That means they had higher revenue. A. Where did said additional revenue come from B. How confident can they be that said revenue would stick around in the absence of the old stars they're currently pushing

Then how is the profitability improved? Ratings / Spike revenue? If it's ratings, well, isn't that improved in the "big stars" era of TNA? In which case they risk losing a lot of the current fans if the TNA Originals aren't established enough over the next few years when the old stars retire, jump, or get too broken down to use. Also, I don't think hoping for WWE table scraps is much of a business model. I mean sure they might wind up with the likes of CM Punk, Morrison, Carlito and Jack Swagger... but what they covet is talent that was seen by fans during the days of Raw and Nitro getting a combined 8-9 rating. Those guys are good talents but they don't have the sort of names that are known instantly by 99% of wrestling fans.

Taz isn't going to wrestle. WWE now has enough invested in Jeff that he might merit a Shawn/Taker-style part-time deal (which is also being talked about if they sign Sting or Angle). Going forward I'm not sure who else there is for TNA to scoop up, especially if WWE loosens up a lot about giving older wrestlers part-time deals. TNA has a knack for signing guys who were big during the Monday Night Wars, but as for stars who broke out from 2002 on? I'm not seeing it. How long can they get by on '90s guys? The "Spike wants big stars" thing is I'm sure a big deal, but man, I just don't see how you can book a company the way TNA has even if Spike was nudging them a certain way. The MEM going from something to 'get the young guys over' to IMMEDIATELY focusing on inter-group squabbles... yeah. Not to mention the goofy decisions they've made about Joe.

No incentive other than: -Angle might leave when his deal ends -Sting might leave when his deal ends -Foley has a very limited number of matches left in him -Nash is more injury-prone than Chad Pennington AND is incredibly limited as far as working a match other than a one-sided squash -Christian left Plus one doesn't know how much longer Booker and Jeff have in them. Booker was talking retirement a good 5-6 years ago. Jeff is a 20+ year veteran. It's not "where will this company be in 5 years?". It's "where will this company be in 18 months?"

Last I knew, TNA was breaking even as far as current costs and current revenue. Though that was months ago so things might have swung back.

Full. I didn't even know the 40 minute version existed until this thread. And do keep in mind that I don't expect it to finish tops for 80-87 when the DVDVR '80s vote comes around. It doesn't have quite the uniqueness of Jumbo vs Kerry or the action of the best Choshu tags. Part of why I love it is how great Flair makes Jumbo look.

Who owns the JWA footage? NTV? If they do I wonder why they've released so little of it. Keep in mind that I don't rate any of the Choshu matches much higher than "really fun". Lots of weak years for top-notch bouts in that period, especially compared to 76/77 on one end and 88/89 on the other.