Matt D

Dynamite is a guy that I absolutely loathe after a certain point, that I strongly dislike at a point before that, and that I think can be absolutely excellent at times for a point before that. He could end up low on my list for his 80-84 work. That sort of thing. If I rank Michaels, it'll be at the very bottom of my list because of his ambition (though it so often fails) and elements of his tag work, but he's not someone I would say I love overall.

It'll be tricky. I don't want to watch Benoit matches so I can't rate Benoit. I have no problem watching Invader I matches so could well be in my top 30. Not that he'd make my list, but I'm not watching Buck Zuhmofe so there's no way I could or would rate him. I'm generally ok watching Lawler matches, so he will probably make my top 10. There will 100% be lists on my name I don't love overall, though even in those cases, there'll be matches/performances of theirs or elements of their wrestling that I do probably love.

We're going in circles here but I'll factor in the promos in as they gave Dusty a tool to use in-ring and then I'll examine how he used that tool to his advantage. If he used them well, great, he'll be better off on my broader list. If he didn't, that'll hurt him. That he was able to have the tool in the first place isn't something I'm examining.

This all becomes harder in differentiating your 83 and your 84. Where it might matter the most if you're trying to figure out your 5 and your 4.

I know that you are fully aware of what you are doing to us here. I remain sympathetic because of how you have been ingesting and categorizing wrestling as of late and because of our deep personal friendship.

I agree there. But it's tricky to work in promos here. The comparison would be Hogan not adapting to a style of promo changing and thus being less over because of it? Or going from face to heel and not being able to cut promos as well and ... something? If you give him credit for the crowd being into him because of his promos, you should give him credit for the crowd being into him because of his body. It's not just a failure to adapt but him getting over in the first place. Taking points off for not being able to adapt in the ring is something I'm ok with. Penalizing or not penalizing is one thing. Doling out credit is entirely another. The above sort of applies. It's not about "not holding back" but about giving credit.

You have to be very nuanced about it. Bobby Eaton needs a similar amount of credit to Tully Blanchard in this, in as Tully was able to talk for himself and then parlay that into his ringwork but Eaton had Cornette talk for him but he was then able to parlay that into his ringwork. To me, these two things are pretty much equal, so long as they do an equally good job at parlaying.

If you're doing this, I honestly think you should give Hulk Hogan credit for keeping his body up or using roids well then. From your line of logic you've given at least. It's part of Hogan's job as a pro wrestler and part of his aura and part of how the crowd reacts to him. The difference may have even been part of what affected crowd reactions to him in 92-96. To me, like I said, it's potential energy and kinetic energy. How do they use it once they get to the ring.

On this level, I don't know if Promos are any different from "having a great body," as in, we should give Animal similar credit for either using roids well or working hard in the gym and controlling his diet, as his body gets a certain reaction from the crowd. He's putting the work in one way or the other. In both cases, however, it's about how he utilizes that reaction/capital in the ring.

I get where you're coming from, but I'll go with you only as far in examining how they utilize the capital they create with the promos with their wrestling in the ring. If someone has a lot of built up capital and then squanders it by not tapping into it well through their wrestling, that's potentially a knock against, for instance. Otherwise, it's just not what this project is to me at least. I think you can compare ringwork across styles, regions, languages, eras. I don't think you can factor this in as well, except for as I mentioned above. You can think about how Satanico's evil skits were capitalized upon in his ringwork. You can think about how Rusher Kimura's post-match ramblings were capitalized upon in his ringwork. But I'm not going that huge, huge step more.

I binged a lot of Ozaki five years ago to have something to talk to Stacey about on the podcast and liked what I saw, though the 2000s matches kind of got weird with the outside assistance.

Might have missed it but I actually got dragooned into watching the hour-long Toyota vs Inoue match: https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/34104-the-greatest-wrestler-ever-project-postscript/?do=findComment&comment=5939259 which I liked, but I think a good chunk of of that was because they were legitimately exhausted towards the end and had no choice but to let things sink in and resonate (the hour long joshi epic version of the "now you have to sell my shitty punches" Jake Roberts/Warrior story?) which made everything that came before matter all the more. Anyway, while I am happy to get aboard the joshi zeitgeist express here, as I have five years, and certainly respect Elliott's opinions, I am trying to ease into this a bit, yeah. My guess is that it'll be a bit like 90s lucha, where there's there's a lot that was missed at the time due to the more narrow interests of the people watching/obsessing, that the lot of you have been recontextualizing over the last few years, and I'll catch up to that party. There are general elements (we'll say "absolute emotional commitment to the moment" for instance) that I know I like already, but I've only seen dribs and drabs over the years.

Primarily time. I'd have to go forward to virtually today if I wanted to fully examine him. I know I saw an interesting 2018 match vs Suwama. That's decades of extra stuff without a basis. We'll see what happens but I find it unlikely. He's a 2036 guy for me.

I think someone could, but I don't think I could. Kawada, Kobashi, and Misawa are frontrunners. Jumbo and Tenryu are frontrunners. Choshu's a frontrunner. They're contemporary enough or from the same style. Apples to apples. I personally feel like I can't rate one without rating all. I'm ok with someone feeling otherwise. I think (hope) I can draw the line at Akiyama though, so there is a line.

Ok. We need to rename the project. (I’m kidding, probably)

I shouldn't have to justify this but... I led with AJPW because it's what I'm watching every other night. I'm documenting that over at DVDVR. So it, along with France, is the biggest project I have currently. I went back to it at the end since it went to the point I was making about how everything would be pretty enjoyable (but that). I kept Japan off my list in 2016 (though I included Lucha and WoS and other areas people skipped) because I couldn't surmount that issue. This time around, I'd like to include the pillars but I can't without doing the not-fun legwork. Otherwise, I'd just keep them off again. And once you keep them off, are you really going to include Fuchi or Tenryu? Also, we have almost ten years of the French footage available (over a hundred matches) for anyone who wants to take a look, and more's out there every week. Thank you both. Definitely will be helpful in thinking through all this. I'm more than happy to lean on other people's expertise to make sense of this. As for going into 1991 AJPW, it'll probably come down to whether or not I want to take a break and look at something else and come back to it. Right now I'm on a roll but i feel like the amount of footage (especially, but not just, handhelds) steps up as we get into 90 and 91 so doing what I'm doing now might not be feasible. Still, we have five years.

It'll be a bit like how I'm using Hash. I'll use Kandori to branch out in other directions. I'm sure Nakano will be that direction and I'll have to go backwards with her quite a bit. I'm not totally blind to joshi but I definitely don't have the comprehensive knowledge I'd like and I have to come at this with some plan or it'll be madness (for me at least).

It's pre-determined because I know, on a passing glance I've already done that there's a lot in there I don't like. I know I'm going to have to shove them down. I don't take any enjoyment in that. I don't want to shove them down. I'm not doing it to be controversial. There's a lot about them I really enjoy. Finding how far they get shoved down is going to be work. I assume I'm going to penalize Taue less. If it turns out that's not the case and he deserves it just as much, all the worse. If they don't deserve it collectively as much, all the better.

I need to rank them based on the first half of their careers. I can't accurately rank them without that stuff. I am not at all looking forward to it. It's the only part of the project that's work and not fun. Maybe I'll be happily surprised? But hey, if you want to fuck off and make your list already, be my guest. It'll make for a more pleasant and less pointlessly contentious few years, probably. You come in hot on almost every post these days.

Loose plans: Finish all AJPW 89, watch all AJPW 90, figure out what to do with 91. Follow Tenryu forward. Then watch just enough mid-late 90s AJPW and NOAH to shove down the pillars except for Taue. Finish the INA French Catch collection. Figure out some chronological approach to WoS. Watch all Hashimoto on tape and use that to spiral off in different directions of interest, most especially early 90s NJPW. Figure out how to deal with the 00s Indy guys with sufficient footage over time (Hopefully limited to Bryan, Styles, Joe, Homicide, Kingston, Hero, Ki, but I don't know. As much overlap as possible, but I'll have to deal with some TNA; then the floodgate opens. Do I want to deal with Jimmy Rave or Derrick King? Not really) Something something Choshu? Kandori? 1997 WWF, especially TV and handhelds. I've seen less of that one particular year than you'd think. Watch every Destroyer match on tape. Watch every Pat Patterson match on tape. Watch every Volk Han match on tape. Whatever I promised I'd do with Daisuke Sekimoto Maybe the DVDVR Other Japan 80s set? FUTEN? BattlARTS? Late 80s Dandy That doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 5 years, right? Except for the pillars stuff.

Even Dusty had his guys though. He poached Magnum, brought in Bass, slowly accepted back Barry, etc.

And probably the biggest thing I learned from the Gary Hart book was that we fell into a habit of focusing on pre-90s bookers as mainly matchmakers/writers as opposed to being the people who gathered and literally "booked" the talent. So if Scott had success with successful runs, some of that was his ability to either gather or hold talent in a territory.

That Herd said he hired George Scott specifically (and maybe only) so he could get Ricky Steamboat was the most interesting thing in that entire interview, maybe.

The Dunn cut on the Bad Bunny punch is hilarious.

I wasn't at all a fan of his 2015 comeback, which (along with a few other things) kept him towards the bottom of my top 20 last time. His current comeback will definitely offset that. I think he's been one of the more interesting and effective empty arena workers (as in one of the only guys to really make it work, to be honest), which helps him in a huge way too, plus we've gotten a few bits of new footage which helps his case too like this: