Matt D

I do a weekly "wwe house show, this week" youtube search, but nothing's jumped out recently, I don't think. I don't know if they're cutting down on what's allowed or what. Watched the Al Snow match. Another really exciting opening segment, but Snow almost Killed Michaels twice, first with that rydeen bomb and then with that rocket launcher power bomb what the hell was that? But Michaels kept his cool and even ate a superplex shortly thereafter. I thought the comeback was a little smarter in how it was executed here, with the top rope clothesline after Snow went to the well for a second superplex a little more believable, but Snow really destroyed Shawn with his offense so it felt a little less believable. Granted, then Shawn did one of the best inverted atomic drops ever, execution elevating what would have been a pretty silly comeback after what he just ate. Good, story driven finish. Until I really started to watch these things, I didn't realize just how much Shawn used the classic wwf babyface no sell comeback. It feels a little weird in 96 and also a little weird with a guy like Michaels who is heralded as he is. There's also a moment in both comebacks I've seen where Michaels sort of fumbled with his opponent before throwing him across the ring, but that could be flukey. In general, I think this match was more effective at doing what it was supposed to do than the Kid match and was laid out better, but maybe wasn't as exciting. I'll take effective over exciting, but I believed the comeback in the Kid match more. Ok, saw the HHH match too. This had the same sort of opening as Kid, with Shawn getting out wrestled, but it was more meticulous and the announcers came up with storyline reasons for it, which made it work much better. It wasn't the same sort of Michaels' opening flurry as the other matches, but it resonated more and had more meaning. This was the most full match in a few ways, but I think a lot of that was because it received the most time out of the three. Lots of cut offs. Hunter's offense wasn't bad but it got a bit repetitive as it went on. He didn't quite have enough stuff or he couldn't use what he had quite well enough. One thing I do really like about Shawn in 96, from what I've seen before, is how he changed up the comebacks. The kip up is his rope-shaking, hulk-upping, strap dropping moment, but sometimes he does it right after the forearm, sometimes before, sometimes he does the inverted atomic drop before, sometimes after, so at least he switches things up, and it rarely leads directly to the finish either, so that's something. In general, I thought this was the match that made the most sense, that, on paper, had right amount of time in the right places, that had a clever enough opening segment, with Shawn coming unglued and getting pissed, and that was smart with its cutoffs and ultimate comeback. But it was also the most lackluster of the matches, and I do think a lot of that was on Hunter. I still don't regret watching it, mind you, because it was interesting for what, why, and how Shawn did. so to sum up, I thought the Kid match was exciting but structured weird, with a wrong beginning for the context. I thought the Snow match was structured okay and dynamic but was a bit too compressed to be believable, and I thought the HHH was structured pretty well with a better take on the kid beginning but lackluster. I would have rather seen Snow with that time.

I've only seen the January 93 Boston WWF House show fan cam as of yet in my 93 watching, and it's well enough done. It's still not the same as something that's professionally done, and I'd rather have Mooney/Lord Alfred than no commentary at all. Still, you can obviously get a lot out of that, too. I'm sure I'll get to more as I keep going (give or take some derailing). If there are really that many, then yes, it's a gap filler. As for Raw vs PTW, at least for the first 3 months of 93, the matches feel shorter and certainly more distracted. There's also an hour less and more extra curricular activity. You'd never see a match interrupted for Kamala chasing Kimchee through the stands on Primetime, for instance. Watched Shawn vs 123 Kid. Liked it. Obviously, by this point Shawn is running the Hogan formula with more elaborate finishes. He gave Waltman a ton, actually making him look like the better wrestler in the opening exchange and again later on, with Michaels' first two comebacks only due to Kid's grandstanding. There's a hint of Malenko vs Crusierweights in Shawn's offense as he kicks out both a press slam and power slam. I actually think he gave Waltman a bit too much without a good storyline reason for it especially as he was on his way to the Main Event at Mania. That said, as action goes, Michaels' might have been best at his opening segments. This one was fun but it was very weird to me that Michaels was on the losing end of the exchange until the grandstanding. Definitely not following the Tito formula, which is okay, but slightly less okay on the road to wrestlemania. Also, Vince's voice was really raspy.

I'll try to run through them in the next couple of days. Thanks.

Honestly, we lose a lot in 93 relative to 92 as there are less CV tapings and I think we got more out of random PTW matches then we do out of Raw matches. It's one reason why my interest petered out a bit in going through WWF TV. Just as we lost a lot from 91 to 92 in losing MSG, and a lot in 91 and 90 to 89 in losing some of the other arenas.

You can learn a lot more about late 80s early 90s WWF guys from MSG/Boston/Toronto/Philly/PTW shows than you can from most other places. Is that no as true in the mid 90s with Mania or whatever B/C shows they had?

Yeah, when I say i haven't seen much 96 Shawn, that's what I mean, mainly, the TV matches. I've seen very little WWE TV in 96 (which is only worth mentioning since I've seen almost everything there is to see from 90-92, and a whole lot of 93 and the late 80s. I haven't seen all the PPVs either but I've seen some at least.

That was from a msg fancam from 95, I think. The Goldust ladder match was 96 though, so there's that too!

I've seen the Vader match and the Mind Games match! so there's that. Oh and the Sid Survivor Series Match, and Mania of course. What else should I see from 96?

Probably should. I was mainly summing up a lot of the note. It sure sounds good though!

I think I've said my piece. You never ever see Eadie do anything, or shortly into the run, Darsow either, and have to think hard for why they're doing it. They gave when they should give and didn't when they shouldn't. They made babyfaces and heels both work for every little damn thing that they got. Every hot tag was earned. Every comeback was earned (and usually cut off smartly a couple of times first). Every bit of offense heels got on them when they were faces was earned and it ultimately made the matches better since everything felt more logical. It was a way of protecting themselves much more effective than the no selling you saw so often from the warriors. It also almost completely eliminated heel-in-peril segments when they were the heels in the match. It usually felt like the babyfaces just trying to desperately survive when they got to work over the arm for a few minutes; containment, not control. You can see trends over time in their matches, and they do have a few very good to great matches. If Shawn's the guy who looks worse when you break him down and analyze them as opposed to just yanking out GREAT MATCHES, Demos as a team are better if you break them down and analyze them instead of trying to find the great matches. They exist but it's not entirely the point. But I've said everything I think I need to on them. Very smart, self-aware, effective workers.

Where do I think I took my comments from, Will? I took what you said about those matches seriously since you took the effort to watch them, and I generally respect your opinion. You didn't like the Twin Towers match because the Demos weren't manhandling them, specifically because there wasn't a heel in peril segment, which was, at the least, pretty hypocritical. You weren't judging the match but your own preconceived notion about what you wanted. That they were selling for the larger heels seemed like a drawback in your eyes. It was a very frustrating post to read at the time, let me tell you. Your biggest problem with them seemed to be that they were Road Warriors clones to you when you were younger. And then you complained that they didn't work the match like the Warriors would have (no, they worked it smarter and WAY more giving, but to the ultimate benefit of the match, making both themselves and their opponents look better). Even at the worst, "ok" and sucked aren't quite the same thing though.

My new theory is that Shawn's increased confidence, and later stroke, meant that he had more match control/input, which led to worse matches as the years went on. But this theory only works if Dylan is right and the AWA stuff is his actual peak when it comes to good performances/smart matches.

I haven't seen the AWA Michaels stuff yet past one bloodbath, but I wouldn't be surprised if he deteriorated as he went along and got more fame/success/confidence. I'd like to see the memphis stuff when they were heels too. I've only seen a couple of studio jobber matches from that period. Does any MSC stuff survive? Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing the AWA work since Dylan and others think so highly of it, especially relative to Michaels' later work.

You never made a compelling argument about how Demolition sucked except for preconceived notions you never had any desire to revisit (which is strange for someone who posts so much here), not liking them when you were younger since they weren't the Road Warriors, and a lack of Movez. Even if you don't like their style, I can't see how you can completely ignore the arguments of the things they do well in every single match that they're in. But that's ok. We're not talking about them. I think Shawn was pretty well led in his tag team days. But I'm not going to put him being a face against him. I meant what I said about him vs DK. His matches were hugely helped by the fact he was something of a wuss who couldn't push people around like he later would be able to (see vs Vader). The fact that he still resented, fifteen years later, the amount of offense Demolition gave them (When it was in fact the perfect amount, strikingly so) shows a pretty big lack of understanding of what the hell he was doing out there and why. But I give some credit to Warrior for being so well-led so I'm not going to keep it from Michaels here, even if I feel it's really despite himself. Basically, as a WWF tag worker, he's not a smart worker, just a hard worker who can't get his way. I can't imagine his AWA run is any different, but I'm looking forward to seeing it. I imagine being younger/less established and in there against some canny, canny vets, he had even LESS influence, and Dylan, for one, considers that his very best work. So we're saying that his best work came at a time where he basically had the least amount of influence in the matches. Which is not the exactly mark of a top 25 great worker in my mind whether he has the matches or not.

One thing that impressed me so much about the 93 memphis I saw was how they were able to spin one week's match into the next and keep adding or shifting stips to bring the fans back every Monday night, and they'd been doing it for years and years. I love the idea that a hair match leads immediately to the fans being screwed out of seeing the newly bald heel due to a mask.

who announced in OVW when Al Snow was booking it? (AKA did Al Snow ever announce?)

So.. how was Vic steamboat?

Look at the match that you linked me to I can't imagine the earlier one is better, but I'll check it out later if I can find it.

Oh hey, I think I saw the follow up match and wrote that up. Oops. Loss linked me the wrong match! Still. I enjoyed THAT a lot at least. I'll have to track this one down too

I think DK vs Shawn is actually pretty interesting. I actually feel like Shawn is a better tag worker for a completely backwards reason. DK was REALLY good at getting as much offense in a match as he wanted, whether it was to the detriment or benefit of the match. Shawn before his singles run, was not. He couldn't bully people and tended to back down and I think that made his tag matches actually much better, as they weren't so littered with Heel In Peril BS.

Piper: Energy, obviously, but also a sense of outrage. When the heels were doing something really nasty you could sense him frothing, especially with anti-american stuff, and yes, while that was, in part, to put himself over, it carried over and helped the heel get more heat. I really believe that. He also worked in topical issues outside the usual WWF bubble. In 98, it was REALLY dated on promos. In 90-91, however, it stood out and usually in a good way. Ventura used to do it but he was always more hollywood focused. Sometimes he'd also bring an honesty to the proceedings like when he flat out admitted he had no idea what the hell Warrior was doing at Summerslam 90. I don't think he was great at actually calling the action though. Note I haven't seen much of his GA (or was it crockett) Commentary. As for Larry, he was good at the SUPER Big picture stuff. Getting over wrestling as a game of human chess and all that. i feel like he made things more legitimate somehow even if he didn't add a ton to specific matches.

Thoughts on Shane Douglas? Personally I love Johnny Polo with Monsoon but I wouldn't call him GOOD by the terms we're talking about. Just highly entertaining. Actually along similar lines, Matt Striker?I thought at FIRST he added a ton to 2009 ECW. I think he ended up going a little overboard though.

I think our feelings on dusty as an announcer is a great sign that as a community we've all lightened up in the last fifteen years.

I think Hennig did a good job in 92. He was a very good partner for Vince. Piper had pros and cons. How do people feel about Dutch Mantell?

Jake was awesome on that one wcw sn