Matt D

That was from a msg fancam from 95, I think. The Goldust ladder match was 96 though, so there's that too!

I've seen the Vader match and the Mind Games match! so there's that. Oh and the Sid Survivor Series Match, and Mania of course. What else should I see from 96?

Probably should. I was mainly summing up a lot of the note. It sure sounds good though!

I think I've said my piece. You never ever see Eadie do anything, or shortly into the run, Darsow either, and have to think hard for why they're doing it. They gave when they should give and didn't when they shouldn't. They made babyfaces and heels both work for every little damn thing that they got. Every hot tag was earned. Every comeback was earned (and usually cut off smartly a couple of times first). Every bit of offense heels got on them when they were faces was earned and it ultimately made the matches better since everything felt more logical. It was a way of protecting themselves much more effective than the no selling you saw so often from the warriors. It also almost completely eliminated heel-in-peril segments when they were the heels in the match. It usually felt like the babyfaces just trying to desperately survive when they got to work over the arm for a few minutes; containment, not control. You can see trends over time in their matches, and they do have a few very good to great matches. If Shawn's the guy who looks worse when you break him down and analyze them as opposed to just yanking out GREAT MATCHES, Demos as a team are better if you break them down and analyze them instead of trying to find the great matches. They exist but it's not entirely the point. But I've said everything I think I need to on them. Very smart, self-aware, effective workers.

Where do I think I took my comments from, Will? I took what you said about those matches seriously since you took the effort to watch them, and I generally respect your opinion. You didn't like the Twin Towers match because the Demos weren't manhandling them, specifically because there wasn't a heel in peril segment, which was, at the least, pretty hypocritical. You weren't judging the match but your own preconceived notion about what you wanted. That they were selling for the larger heels seemed like a drawback in your eyes. It was a very frustrating post to read at the time, let me tell you. Your biggest problem with them seemed to be that they were Road Warriors clones to you when you were younger. And then you complained that they didn't work the match like the Warriors would have (no, they worked it smarter and WAY more giving, but to the ultimate benefit of the match, making both themselves and their opponents look better). Even at the worst, "ok" and sucked aren't quite the same thing though.

My new theory is that Shawn's increased confidence, and later stroke, meant that he had more match control/input, which led to worse matches as the years went on. But this theory only works if Dylan is right and the AWA stuff is his actual peak when it comes to good performances/smart matches.

I haven't seen the AWA Michaels stuff yet past one bloodbath, but I wouldn't be surprised if he deteriorated as he went along and got more fame/success/confidence. I'd like to see the memphis stuff when they were heels too. I've only seen a couple of studio jobber matches from that period. Does any MSC stuff survive? Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing the AWA work since Dylan and others think so highly of it, especially relative to Michaels' later work.

You never made a compelling argument about how Demolition sucked except for preconceived notions you never had any desire to revisit (which is strange for someone who posts so much here), not liking them when you were younger since they weren't the Road Warriors, and a lack of Movez. Even if you don't like their style, I can't see how you can completely ignore the arguments of the things they do well in every single match that they're in. But that's ok. We're not talking about them. I think Shawn was pretty well led in his tag team days. But I'm not going to put him being a face against him. I meant what I said about him vs DK. His matches were hugely helped by the fact he was something of a wuss who couldn't push people around like he later would be able to (see vs Vader). The fact that he still resented, fifteen years later, the amount of offense Demolition gave them (When it was in fact the perfect amount, strikingly so) shows a pretty big lack of understanding of what the hell he was doing out there and why. But I give some credit to Warrior for being so well-led so I'm not going to keep it from Michaels here, even if I feel it's really despite himself. Basically, as a WWF tag worker, he's not a smart worker, just a hard worker who can't get his way. I can't imagine his AWA run is any different, but I'm looking forward to seeing it. I imagine being younger/less established and in there against some canny, canny vets, he had even LESS influence, and Dylan, for one, considers that his very best work. So we're saying that his best work came at a time where he basically had the least amount of influence in the matches. Which is not the exactly mark of a top 25 great worker in my mind whether he has the matches or not.

One thing that impressed me so much about the 93 memphis I saw was how they were able to spin one week's match into the next and keep adding or shifting stips to bring the fans back every Monday night, and they'd been doing it for years and years. I love the idea that a hair match leads immediately to the fans being screwed out of seeing the newly bald heel due to a mask.

who announced in OVW when Al Snow was booking it? (AKA did Al Snow ever announce?)

So.. how was Vic steamboat?

Look at the match that you linked me to I can't imagine the earlier one is better, but I'll check it out later if I can find it.

Oh hey, I think I saw the follow up match and wrote that up. Oops. Loss linked me the wrong match! Still. I enjoyed THAT a lot at least. I'll have to track this one down too

I think DK vs Shawn is actually pretty interesting. I actually feel like Shawn is a better tag worker for a completely backwards reason. DK was REALLY good at getting as much offense in a match as he wanted, whether it was to the detriment or benefit of the match. Shawn before his singles run, was not. He couldn't bully people and tended to back down and I think that made his tag matches actually much better, as they weren't so littered with Heel In Peril BS.

Piper: Energy, obviously, but also a sense of outrage. When the heels were doing something really nasty you could sense him frothing, especially with anti-american stuff, and yes, while that was, in part, to put himself over, it carried over and helped the heel get more heat. I really believe that. He also worked in topical issues outside the usual WWF bubble. In 98, it was REALLY dated on promos. In 90-91, however, it stood out and usually in a good way. Ventura used to do it but he was always more hollywood focused. Sometimes he'd also bring an honesty to the proceedings like when he flat out admitted he had no idea what the hell Warrior was doing at Summerslam 90. I don't think he was great at actually calling the action though. Note I haven't seen much of his GA (or was it crockett) Commentary. As for Larry, he was good at the SUPER Big picture stuff. Getting over wrestling as a game of human chess and all that. i feel like he made things more legitimate somehow even if he didn't add a ton to specific matches.

Thoughts on Shane Douglas? Personally I love Johnny Polo with Monsoon but I wouldn't call him GOOD by the terms we're talking about. Just highly entertaining. Actually along similar lines, Matt Striker?I thought at FIRST he added a ton to 2009 ECW. I think he ended up going a little overboard though.

I think our feelings on dusty as an announcer is a great sign that as a community we've all lightened up in the last fifteen years.

I think Hennig did a good job in 92. He was a very good partner for Vince. Piper had pros and cons. How do people feel about Dutch Mantell?

Jake was awesome on that one wcw sn

I wrote that up: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5489506

I could go on for about an hour about how frustrating the build to the Butcher match is. No one wants me to do that though.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure he didn't lose a single match in Europe that year!

Important to note that a lot of traditional big man spots (Which is what you'd use in a Duggan vs big man match generally) were held off because they were saving them for Sting vs Tenta later in the night. It pushed this closer to a brawl and made it ultimately more interesting.

Honestly, I don't think anyone on this board would have a problem with me saying that I'd rather watch 1992 John Tenta than 1992 Shawn Michaels, and if I explained why and gave examples, people would listen. It's a revisionist board, but it's also an EXTREMELY reasonable one most of the times. So long as you explain yourself and listen to what other people have to say, you can argue anything/

There are a FEW singles matches in 91 that made tape. There's the 3/15/91 Kato MSG match (aired 3/26/91 PTW), the 3/17/91 PTW Mr. Perfect Match, the 12/16/91 Flair PTW match, a 1/29/91 Crush match that made a CV release. And of course, the Dibiase match in 90. I swear there was a Roma match too but that could be Jannetty. To me, the most interesting 92 Michaels match is the Snuka one from MSG (1/31/92). Not the best but the most interesting. Everyone should watch that. It's very early in the heel run and VERY late in Snuka's run.