French catch

[PeteF3]

I think in the perceived American-wrestling-as-morality-play universe it generally occupied/occupies, the referee is seen as more of the bureaucratic chief of police who's admonishing Dirty Harry, Charles Bronson, or McBain to "play it by the book" and getting in the way of the actual work in the process.

[David Mantell]

Rock N Wrestling Connection 

 

[David Mantell]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:04 PM, David Mantell said:

Flesh clearly had a long career and he became the French Big Daddy in time (he's nearly 70 now) and without knowing a person's background and motivation it's hard to distinguish what is legitmate criticism of him from what is wrestling business politics stemming from:

a) the promotional-cum-blood feud between FFCP/Marc Mercier and  Wrestling Stars/Gordon/Jacky Richard which seems to be tearing the C21st French Old School scene apart.

b) supporters of ICWA and other Americanised promotions as well as French fans of WWE who use Gordon negatively as a stick to beat al old school French wrestling (like many British "new school" promotions/fans and British fans of American wrestling who hate traditional-style British Wrestling and want it wiped out and so use Big Daddy as a stick to beat it.)

He was a decent worker early on and his deterioration into a fat old man as the figurehead of a scene took several decades as it might well be expected to do with anyone. (I'm not exactly svelte myself at age 49) He makes a less obvious whipping boy than Daddy or even Otto Wanz and it's harder to put a finger on what French non-fans of his dislike about him.

It's worth pointing out that Marc Mercier also (1) got old (2) faced his share of gimmicky opponents.  This is from 2003:

 

[David Mantell]

(if that embed doesn't work, the link is https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsbju5 )

 

[David Mantell]

On 7/21/2014 at 3:27 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Kader Hassouni/Jean Corne vs. Albert Sanniez/Jacky Richard (9/3/83)

This was in colour and most likely from the 70s. 

Well it says 83 so I expect it was from 1983 - Sept 3rd to be exact

Just spotted this while flicking through. Sorry to nitpick but ...

[David Mantell]

On 7/21/2014 at 3:27 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Hassouni and Richard I've see on WoS while Corne was a regular competitor in England during the 1960s and appeared on several Royal Albert Hall shows along with a few TV appearances. He looked pretty old here, which is why I'm guessing this was from the 70s. Richard was apparently a major heel on French TV and he certainly upset the ringside fans in this one. This was another excellent French tag that unfortunately cut out before the finish. The heel work was pretty fantastic with Sanniez applying this really obnoxious looking submission where he kept pulling the face's hair. This upset an old woman at ringside and some snot nosed kids, who were lucky they didn't receive a hiding. Needed the finish, but a solid all round match.

Here's the full match - there are actually three versions on Youtube, a Matt D one, a Bob Alpra one and an ABCCatch one.  I opted for the last on as it seems to be the best picture quality and have the most footage at the start 

Actually the audience seem less aggrieved with Jacky Richard and more with referee Michel Saulnier who gets a hell of a bad time from the crowd, not just the regular "HO CETTE ARBITRE" but at 18:31 a much nastier sounding chant that gets Saulnier seriously upset and standing on the middle rope shouting abuse back at them.   It goes something like "L'Arbitre, ouiseaux, c'est --------aux" blanked sections are totally unintelligble, if anyone could decipher the exact full chant that would be great, even if it's something seriously rude.  Commetator Daniel Cazal (later on apparently a respectable tennis commentator on Antenne 2's successor France 2's sports package show Stade 2)    doesn't seem to want to spell it out, he just says "L'arbitre etcetera"

Odd that kids should be showing up in such numbers given that we know from the speaking clocks on Matt D's videos that Le Catch mostly got transmitted at around 2200h/2300h in the late evening.  They would have made good Big Daddy fans if Shirley had taken the cross channel ferry now and then, and probably many of them did go on to become Des Petits Hulkamaniacs over the next 4-6 years as private subscription channel Canal Plus arrived witht the WWF on board and soon took off.

Angry Grandmas, of course,  have been a worldwide cliché of wrestling audiences on both sides of the Atlantic since the 1940s and the days of Hatpin Mary.  Cazal seems to take quite a lot of relish in poking fun at this particular one at 14:04 - "Bravo Madame - Vouz avez  un sense de la justice et de la regularité dans le catch qui vous honore"

[David Mantell]

19 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Commetator Daniel Cazal (later on apparently a respectable tennis commentator on Antenne 2's successor France 2's sports package show Stade 2) 

There's a bit of a career retrospective of him here - no mention of Le Catch though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc37UPvelZQ

 

When Roger Couderc dropped dead in the middle of a rugby tournament in 1984, it was Cazal who broke the news to the public:

 

[David Mantell]

2018 interview here with Flesh Gordon:
https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2018/09/13/2868085-la-star-du-catch-flesh-gordon-a-montauban-samedi.html

Auto translation:
 

Quote

 

Wrestling star Flesh Gordon in Montauban on Saturday

Published on 09/13/2018 at 2:47 p.m. , update on 09/14/2018 at 07:38  MANON BRICARD

European champion in 1988, world champion in 1992,… Flesh Gordon, Gérard Hervé in town, is a star of the French rings . He will be present on Saturday September 15 at the Montauban Station Market for the big wrestling gala, a unique event in the Ingres city. A show that promises to be spectacular.

You started wrestling very young: how did this passion come to you?

I took boxing and pankration lessons at 14 and entered the industry at 16. I liked wrestling and wrestling, but it's true that when I saw wrestling, I found it a little dusty, it lacked physicality for us. I had the opportunity to go to Mexico where I discovered “lucha libre” (Mexican wrestling, Editor’s note). I discovered something extraordinary there. I then returned to France where I met Daniel Cazal who was then a journalist on Antenne 2 and who wanted to present wrestling in a new way to spectators. What I like about wrestling is the diversity and mix of techniques.

How has French wrestling evolved since your beginnings?

I brought Mexican-style wrestling to the spectators, remixed European-style. We dusted off the system by bringing back something new, a new product with much more elaborate and technical wrestling. We managed to offer this blend in the 1980s, it worked, there is a real demand, people love it. Now, there are several schools in wrestling, we see the differences between each wrestler and that's what makes wrestling evenings so valuable.

What can the Montalbanais expect for Saturday's show?

The public will experience a great evening: there will be six fights offered, with 8 nations represented. The public will be able to discover heavyweight and middleweight fights... All the matches will be very explosive. In wrestling, what interests us is that people enjoy themselves, we don't want to let them fall asleep (laughs).

How are you going to participate in Saturday's evening?

I'm going to be a table referee, I'm also going to participate as a technical co-presenter and I'm going to host the evening... I stopped fighting completely a few years ago, even though I still train. I miss it a little, I often want to get into the ring. But you have to know how to say stop.

The program
The public is expected at the Montauban station market on Saturday September 15 from 8 p.m. Six fights between wrestlers from the WS federation, a European reference in the world of wrestling, will be given for a show lasting 2h30. The local Oc Kick Fighting and Lutteurs Montalbanais clubs will offer demonstrations in the first part of the evening.

Prices: €5 for children, €8 for adults, €18 for the “golden square”. Part of the profits will be donated to the Perce-Neige foundation created by Lino Ventura. More information on https://agenda.montauban.com

*************************************************************

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Comments (1)

..Trucky. 5 years ago
Another nerd!!!

 

 

[David Mantell]

https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2011/04/17/1061443-catch-flesh-gordon-bientot-a-boe.html

An earlier article from 2011.  "Gentleman Grizzly" in the photo is of couse Paul Neu, known in other parts of Europe as Cannonball Grizzly (CWA) Raging Bull (Reslo) and American Avalanche (All Star going back to 1992 two years before John Tenta became Avalance in WCW)

Quote

Catch: Flesh Gordon soon at Boé
Among the wrestling stars who will jostle in every sense of the word in the ring of the sports complex, the French Flesh Gordon and Jimmy Gavroche, or the American Gentleman Grizzly...Among the wrestling stars who will jostle in every sense of the word in the ring of the sports complex, the French Flesh Gordon and Jimmy Gavroche, or the American Gentleman Grizzly… Photo Jean -Michel Mazet
 

 

Published on04/17/2011 at 08:06 , update at 10:42
La Dépêche du Midi
Were it not for the black mustache in the shape of a dilapidated dumbbell, one would swear a clone of “Monsieur Propre”, the man with the telegenic smile and biceps that sparkle: Flesh Gordon, whom no one would dream of calling Gérard Hervé (his true state) anymore. civil), is the one who, so to speak, “dusted off” wrestling made in France, which he rubbed shoulders with from adolescence. At 56, he is the undisputed star of French wrestlers, even if he gave up competition a long time ago: Flesh Gordon will be in the ring in Boé, in Lot-et-Garonne, on April 30. That day, around thirty, including some solid American stars, will challenge themselves and put on a show in front of the approximately 2,000 expected spectators. A real happiness in perspective for Flesh, who will find his big friends from all over the world.

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Comments (1)

12 years ago
how much does the
ticket cost?
I went to see them in the dear, they had an excellent evening

 

[David Mantell]

Talking of "HO CETTE ARBITRE!!!"  French WWF fans got a hearty chant of it going against Andre's pal Tim White at this WWF show in Paris  October 7th 1988 at the  5:15 mark.  Needless to say, Gorilla and Bobby were left nonplussed ...

 

[David Mantell]

Unsurprisingly, "Ho Cette Arbitre" (originally "Oh Cette Arbitre De Merde")  originally comes from Football (as in soccer, not as in what we call "American Football") - see also "Allez les rouges/ verts/ bleus /jaunes" and also the Big Daddy fans chant of "Easy, easy" in the UK.
https://www.jeuxvideo.com/forums/1-20-15439950-804-0-1-0-topic-olympique-lyonnais.htm 

I suspect a lot of standard American fan chants such as " Go (babyface) go" and "(Heel) SUCKS!!!" similarly had their origins in other sports like (American) Football and Baseball.

[David Mantell]

New video on Matt D's channel:
25th February 1984
Black Shadow vs Angelito (joined in progress)
Marquis Jacky Richard vs Georges Cohen
Flesh Gordon & Walter Bordes vs Les Maniaks (Different match from the one on August 18th 1985)
 

 

[David Mantell]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:30 PM, David Mantell said:

Marquis Jacky Richard

I stand corrected - apprently this was a different wrestler doing the Marquis gimmick, the original bearded version Marquis Eduardo.  Jacky Richard replaced him in the gimmick the following year 1985.  This is Jacky Richard doing the gimmick:

Which then begs the question - who was "Eduardo" ?

One of those things we really need a native French fan to explain.

 

Afterthought - it LOOKS a lot like British wrestler Barry "Rex Strong" Sherman,  but I think he'd put on a lot more weight by this point - his stint as the masked Samurai for Joint Promotion (no relation to Le Samurai of late 70s French Catch) was 2-3 years after Marquis Eduardo and he was quite flabby by that point.

[David Mantell]

 I see the subject of the two Marquises has been addressed before.  Same butler Paul double-barrel though.

On 6/5/2020 at 11:34 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Flesh Gordon & Kader Hassouni vs. Le Marquis Richard Fumolo de la Rossignolette & Black Shadow (aired 7/14/85)

The Marquis has changed his name from Eduardo to Richard and shaved his beard. He looks like a totally different person. In fact, I'm not convinced it's the same worker. This guy looks like Jacky Richard. The gimmick still sucks and his wrestling is awful, so that hasn't changed. This has some decent stuff at the beginning between Gordon and Shadow before breaking down into the usual bore. The ring apron says Gilbert Leclerc in big letters. Is he the man responsible for this shit show?

 

[David Mantell]

Hair vs Hair match December 1967 - Couderc confrms that it's broadcast on Channel 2 at 0:20 so it seems it had already made the move in time for the switch to colour in October that year.  Probably got moved across when Channel 2 started in 1964.

 

[David Mantell]

Good clean match in a rather tiny venue circa 2006, possibly the revived FFCP:

 

[David Mantell]

Some rare fan-cam footage of Roger Delaporte just a few years before he switched from hated heel to beloved troubleshooter referee:

 

[David Mantell]

Two more matches from the same small venue circa 2006

 

[David Mantell]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:43 AM, David Mantell said:

Hair vs Hair match December 1967 - Couderc confrms that it's broadcast on Channel 2 at 0:20 so it seems it had already made the move in time for the switch to colour in October that year.  Probably got moved across when Channel 2 started in 1964.

 

Unfortunately on this one from October 1967 - just about 3 weeks after 2eme Chaine went colour, Couderc says to camera at 0:12 that this is broadcast on "le Premier Chaine" - Channel 1, still in b/w  This would seem to indicate that matches continued to be broadcast for some time on both channels including after 2eme went colour.  This means (1) a long slog of listening out on over a hundred matches 1964-1974 for what channel they were broadcast on to determine the general pattern - unless anyone has all the transmission details written down - (2) at least some bouts post October 1967 would have been on Channel 1 therefore in black and white originally therefore no chroma dots on those specific  film prints.  Still at least we know some of those matches were in colour and we do have one actual colour VT from Jan '69 (see further back in thread).

 

[El-P]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:45 PM, David Mantell said:

Talking of "HO CETTE ARBITRE!!!"  

On 9/18/2023 at 9:31 AM, David Mantell said:

Unsurprisingly, "Ho Cette Arbitre" (originally "Oh Cette Arbitre De Merde") 

No offense. The language teacher in me can't help it, and I just love this meme. 

They chant "Aux chiottes l'arbitre !" which is basically "The referee to the shitter !". It probably does come from football chants, which are always so very smart and clever.

It doesn't originally come from the sentence you found on JVC (which is basically "What a shitty referee", and although it refers to referee and shit, doesn't mean the same thing and is not a chant either) I guess by googling what you thought you heard before (and bad luck, you stumbled onto a badly written sentence with a bad orthographic mistake that confirmed your own mistake by making you think it existed).

On 9/16/2023 at 11:11 AM, David Mantell said:

Here's the full match - there are actually three versions on Youtube, a Matt D one, a Bob Alpra one and an ABCCatch one.  I opted for the last on as it seems to be the best picture quality and have the most footage at the start 

Actually the audience seem less aggrieved with Jacky Richard and more with referee Michel Saulnier who gets a hell of a bad time from the crowd, not just the regular "HO CETTE ARBITRE" but at 18:31 a much nastier sounding chant that gets Saulnier seriously upset and standing on the middle rope shouting abuse back at them. 

They chant "Arbitre ! Salaud ! Le peuple aura ta peau !". Which is indeed not very nice.  Because they basically call the ref an asshole and that "the people will get your skin", literally translated. Less a sport-chant than a demonstration chant. You can hear the exact same chant right there at 0:30 on the second video about president Macron. 

 

 

[David Mantell]

It's a pity because Michel Saunier was such a good classy lightweight wrestler whereas Delaporte who was one of the most notorious heels became a tough guy trooubleshooter no nonsense ref like MaxWard in England or Gorilla Monsoon in the late 70s WWWF.  This whole quasi-heel referee thing seems to have started in about 1977 - Guy Mercier was making it okay for Les Bons to beat up on the ref.
 

 

[David Mantell]

Quote

They chant "Aux chiottes l'arbitre !" which is basically "The referee to the shitter !". It probably does come from football chants, which are always so very smart and clever.

They chant "Arbitre ! Salaud ! Le peuple aura ta peau !". Which is indeed not very nice.  Because they basically call the ref an asshole and that "the people will get your skin", literally translated. 

I guess French TV had looser standards than the IBA. 
Hence the strap matches and fighting outside the ring.

[El-P]

French TV was super uptight in the 70's. But nothing like the US or the UK I'm guessing.

[David Mantell]

They seem to have allowed a lot of stuff that would never swing in the UK.  As discussed above, the British referees had to be in charge and in authority at all times.  The wimpy ineffective American referees would have been unacceptable on ITV let alone the quasi-heel French referees.  They allowed womens' matches on French TV which ITV never did (although it was shown on Reslo on S4C and on various news bulletins and BBC2 Arena docu Raging Belles.) Lengthy ringside fight sequences were ten a penny on Antenne 2 but even short ones were banned from ITV.

As discussed, the main ethos of the ITV shows and Kent Walton was to produce upmarket classy wrestling (leaving askde Daddy tags and the odd other comedy bout) that would stop problems like the 1961 attempt by Maurice Herzog to cancel the wrestling on French TV.  Britain was lucky to have a commentator like Kent Walton who took the art of the clean scientific match seriously and tried to preach this to his viewers.  France's wrestling business was lumbered with the likes of Daniel Cazal who (presumably  because of the 1958 dispute) seemed to think it was a test of their journalistic freedom that they be allowed to poke fun at Le Catch.

[David Mantell]

Late Nineties/ early Noughties. IWSF on tour internationally in FYR Macedonia - I guess that's Macedonian the MC is speaking.  Flesh hasn't yet got his bald head, tache and paunch although he's got a W hairline like he's Road Warrior Animal. Jacky Richard in his final phase as Monsieur Jacky the evil heel Commissioner in shirt, tie and braces, looking like the head of George  Steele on the body of IRS after too many fry-ups for breakfast on the road. Zefy still in his prime. Scott Rider, Flesh's nemesis, the French Giant  Haystacks in a kilt. Ring looks like a relic from the TV days. I believe there's some more on that YouTube channel, will check it out.