French catch

[David Mantell]

Did French Wrestling ever actually get cancelled?. This must be C21st but everything about the production screams 1980s broadcast on Antenne 2 - vintage ring, urbanely cynical commentator. Crowd is good too, comparable to an 80s French TV taping. I wonder why it was filmed?

[El-P]

3 hours ago, David Mantell said:

Did French Wrestling ever actually get cancelled?. This must be C21st but everything about the production screams 1980s broadcast on Antenne 2 - vintage ring, urbanely cynical commentator. Crowd is good too, comparable to an 80s French TV taping. I wonder why it was filmed?

Everything screams early-mid-90's, believe me. And at one point there's a clue in the commentary that gives up the fact that it is probably early-mid-90's (the most unexpected clue too, as one announcer is talking about how the new thing in Japan is barb-wire replacing ropes. Yep, someone actually referred to fucking FMW during *this*)

The answer appears at 9:44 it's written on the screen where this is taking place : Foire de Lavaux, broadcasted live on two regional televisions. It's not in France, it's in Switzerland. And since the two regional TV began respectively in 1993 and 1995, there it is (maybe at the same time Flesh Gordon appeared in the infamous and hilariously cringe Belgium documentary TV series Strip Tease). I figured it was some kind of fair or festival (or *gasp* works council party) because the audience are actually at eating tables. 

De rien.

As far as catch on French TV, I don't know when it appeared the last time on Antenne 2 in the early 80's, but as far as I know there was none anymore until Canal + bought the rights to WWF, I don't remember exactly when (1985 if you believe Wiki, but I did not start watching until 90). I remember Flesh Gordon's promotion was on TF1 for very few weeks in about 1991. Then maybe showed up on Eurosport later in the decade for a little while, but I don't remember seeing this (not that it was of any interest to me).

[David Mantell]

9 hours ago, El-P said:

As far as catch on French TV, I don't know when it appeared the last time on Antenne 2 in the early 80's, but as far as I know there was none anymore until Canal + bought the rights to WWF, I don't remember exactly when (1985 if you believe Wiki, but I did not start watching until 90). I remember Flesh Gordon's promotion was on TF1 for very few weeks in about 1991. Then maybe showed up on Eurosport later in the decade for a little while, but I don't remember seeing this (not that it was of any interest to me).

As discussed earlier on, as far as can be told from Matt D's videos from the INA, it moved from A2 to FR3 in about August 1985 (prior to this FR3 did the rather strange show Le Dernier Manchette in '84.) The last video on Matt's channel is from Aug '87 and the last known listing of Le Catch in Tele Guide is from November that year, about 13 months before The Final Bell on ITV in the UK.

[David Mantell]

Also Flesh Gordon's hair is in MUCH better shape in 1992 on Welsh TV "Reslo" than the above match. Plus, Jacky Richard has had time to rebrand from Marquise Richards to Monsieur Jacky in the interim.

It can't be said for certain how quick off the mark the commentators were with their FMW comments.

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, David Mantell said:

As discussed earlier on, as far as can be told from Matt D's videos from the INA, it moved from A2 to FR3 in about August 1985 (prior to this FR3 did the rather strange show Le Dernier Manchette in '84.) The last video on Matt's channel is from Aug '87 and the last known listing of Le Catch in Tele Guide is from November that year, about 13 months before The Final Bell on ITV in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ811z1HQb3mVjMNSAv9ffhNaInRd83O0

This bout from 11th August '85 shows the A2 station ident at the start:

The next bout from 18th August 1985 says FR3 Dijon in the end credits

All bouts on the playlist after that are from one or another FR3 region.

So clearly the middle of Aug 85 is when the Antenne 2 to FR3 move took place.

 

[El-P]

12 hours ago, David Mantell said:

Also Flesh Gordon's hair is in MUCH better shape in 1992 on Welsh TV "Reslo" than the above match.

I was talking about the match in Switzerland, Zefy vs Richard. Then again, maybe even this one is early 00's despite the font and the look of the people around. It's the Swiss countryside after all (yeah, sorry Claudio).

I had not watched this thread in a long time, since it was all about stuff from the 60's and stuff. The most shocking thing to me is not that there was actual pro-wrestling on Antenne 2 in 1985 still (I was way too young to know though), but that Bernard Menez had been a guest announcer. Bernard fucking Menez.

Also, no wonder it had been washed away clean by Canal displaying WWF programs. Jeez, it was soooo franchouillard. I almost can't bare.

[David Mantell]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

I was talking about the match in Switzerland, Zefy vs Richard. Then again, maybe even this one is early 00's despite the font and the look of the people around. It's the Swiss countryside after all (yeah, sorry Claudio).

I had not watched this thread in a long time, since it was all about stuff from the 60's and stuff. The most shocking thing to me is not that there was actual pro-wrestling on Antenne 2 in 1985 still (I was way too young to know though), but that Bernard Menez had been a guest announcer. Bernard fucking Menez.

Also, no wonder it had been washed away clean by Canal displaying WWF programs. Jeez, it was soooo franchouillard. I almost can't bare.

I was going to write back about the Swiss thing, yes I figured afterwards you meant the Zefy Vs Monsieur Jacky bout, not the tag match from Macedonia. The only oddity about the singles match was Richard doing the Monsieur Jacky gimmick which I always thought was inspired by Mister McMahon and an allusion to Richard being part-owner of the IWSF/WS in real life.

However late on that Macedonian match is, they've got a good house, mostly of kids who are really into it, so it seems they were doing good businesses.

I guess "franchouillard" means parochially French.  I don't have a problem with that, us Brits are a lot less embarrassed about our proletarian culture anyway.

Canal + started in 1984 and the WWF did its first Euro house show in Paris Aug 87, the same month as the last INA video on Matt D's channel (Karl Von Kramer Vs Ted Hughes in a lurid orange ring on FR3.) I think the idea that it got washed away by WWF is as much a myth as the same supposedly happening to old school British Wrestling. It lost regular TV (less abruptly than in the UK) but carried on to the present while the TV faded away - or did it properly?

[David Mantell]

The odd one is this (which I think I posted before but can't find right now. ( EDIT: Serj1e also posted it to his channel.). Richard is still Le Marquis not yet Monsieur Jacky  and has a horseshoe of hair, enough for Paul Butard de whathisname to comb now and again and his physique hasn't entirely collapsed yet. Flesh isn't quite the fresh faced tag partner of Walter Borders anymore but he's noticeably lighter than on his Eurosport/Relo matches. The channel owner thinks it's Eurosport but the ring makes it look more like a late period FR3 broadcast than the EWF

 

[David Mantell]

This looks to be from around the same period as the Flesh Gordon Vs Horatio the Pirate match from 2 pages ago - notably leading the crowd on in cheers is a public Warning offence like in that previous bout - but the production is a lot better esp the lighting, whoever filmed this they could have shown 1970s/1980s A2 and FR3 a few tricks. Nice heel win to spice things up. Zefy hasn't aged much by this point.I gather he won that World title in 2005 (Mis Lourdes = Mid Heavyweight.  Possibly a successor to Marty Jones's old title in England which he lost to Johnny South in April 99.) BVD some of you may remember from Global in Texas in the early 90s. Cybernic Machine I posted a clip of him earlier on facing an elderly Marc Mercier which is dead strange given the hostility between Wrestling Stars and FFCP.

[David Mantell]

This is from 2010, Domino was British (and is now sadly dead), I saw him live a fair few times in England at All Star shows in Leamington Spa and Bedworth in the late Noughties Flesh is in his final phase with the bald head and moustache, Scott Rider appears to have shrunk somewhat. Hugo Perez (presumably named in honour of Hugo Chavez) is actually the same guy that uploaded the Swiss and Macedonian bouts.  Some of this footage is stamped with Eurostars, Wrestling Stars' Belgian wing/affiliate/somesuch.  The ring has American style individual corner pads like FFCP were doing at this point and All Star in the UK since 2004ish all also seem to go in for a lot

[David Mantell]

4 hours ago, David Mantell said:

It lost regular TV (less abruptly than in the UK) but carried on to the present while the TV faded away - or did it properly?

Of course, things weren't entirely that abrupt in the UK either, aside from Brits on Eurosport, Reslo carried on to 1995 and there were local tapings for Scottish ITV in 1990 + 1993, various straight to video shows and TV docus. So some of the footage here may be French equivalents of these later UK broadcasts.

Also it's funny how the French move from A2 to FR3 was almost concurrent with the British ending of WoS and its replacement with the Wrestling standalone show about a month or two later than the French switch.

[David Mantell]

 

Just to get up to date, here is Wrestling Stars just a year ago  in the post pandemic era in 2022 in Brionne, looking very much like a typical All Star show in England but with the same blue ropes and pads of that 2010 six man tag. Another match where the heels win by DQ, mainly after the bumped ref unfairly blames Les Bons.  Nice to see that chants of Oh Cette Arbitre Aux chiottes l'arbitre live on in France in the 2020s.

[El-P]

13 hours ago, David Mantell said:

I think the idea that it got washed away by WWF is as much a myth as the same supposedly happening to old school British Wrestling. It lost regular TV (less abruptly than in the UK) but carried on to the present while the TV faded away - or did it properly?

It was pretty much dead in popular culture way before that point anyway. WWF on Canal + was only a "niche" thing also (which did not prevent WWF from drawing in big arenas like Bercy of course, because WWF), because Canal was a crypted channel you had to pay to get sports and movies (and pro-wrestling... and porn). Only a limited amount of people had access to it. The high point of popularity of modern pro-wrestling in France is in the late 00's with the Catch Attack show on AB1, which is why the French wrestling community is pretty much WWE centric and was at its peak during the Cena/Orton/Edge/Jeff Hardy stuff.

[El-P]

14 hours ago, David Mantell said:

The channel owner thinks it's Eurosport but the ring makes it look more like a late period FR3 broadcast than the EWF

 

Damn. I actually posted this match almost ten years ago on this very board. Probably late 80's judging from Flesh Gordon's wonderful outfit and overall look and shape.

Also, Flesh Gordon is the one doing the announcing here, pretending he's not Flesh Gordon. So he's putting himself over while pretending to be just an announcer. Carny mofo.

Well, I dunno if it's been posted on this thread before but, for something different (or not so much considering the latest dramas) and absolutely offensive, here's some EWF genius, which was showed both on one of the 1991 TF1 shows (the very first I believe) and Eurosport : Gaby Lailee vs The Kapo Woman. YEP. How about THAT for a gimmick ? And of course Gaby is native american squaw or something, because why the fuck not.

 

 

[David Mantell]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

Damn. I actually posted this match almost ten years ago on this very board. Probably late 80's judging from Flesh Gordon's wonderful outfit and overall look and shape.

Also, Flesh Gordon is the one doing the announcing here, pretending he's not Flesh Gordon. So he's putting himself over while pretending to be just an announcer. Carny mofo.

Well, I dunno if it's been posted on this thread before but, for something different (or not so much considering the latest dramas) and absolutely offensive, here's some EWF genius, which was showed both on one of the 1991 TF1 shows (the very first I believe) and Eurosport : Gaby Lailee vs The Kapo Woman. YEP. How about THAT for a gimmick ? And of course Gaby is native american squaw or something, because why the fuck not.

 

 

Yes, I've seen that match before and to be honest both those gimmicks had been done far more brazenly on ITV in England even though it wouldn't screen womens' matches (although Antenne 2 had female wrestling on as early as the late 70s.)- As mentioned on the British Wrestling thread, Drew McDonald's manager Dr Monika Kaiser wore actual(-ish) Nazi Frau uniform for her first TV appearance in the corner of Drew as The Masked Spoiler (tagging with notorious Kendo Nagasaki ripoff King Kendo in a decidedly Axis Powers themed heel team against a Churchillian Big Daddy).  Fit Finlay's manager and sometime lady wrestler Princess Paula Valdez (the person British - and Germans - over a certain age are more likely to cite rather than Hornswoggle a Trivial Pursuit question about who was Finlay;'s sidekick) wore a full and loudly coloured Native American head-dress that was one of the main standout pieces of flamboyancy in 80s British wrestling.

[David Mantell]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

Also, Flesh Gordon is the one doing the announcing here, pretending he's not Flesh Gordon. So he's putting himself over while pretending to be just an announcer. Carny mofo.

Brian Crabtree does this in the 1992 Battle of the Brits VHS (later reissued as a series of 2 DVD volumes) where he pretends that the MC is not him even though the whole of Britain knew who they guy in the red and blue glittery blazer was.

[David Mantell]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

It was pretty much dead in popular culture way before that point anyway.

Still sceptical - this sounds like what a lot of "experts" will tell you about Big Daddy (or the WWF) having "killed off" the British scene that I have a ticket to go see in Dudley Town Hall a week on Saturday (28th Oct) and that I can wax lyrical about the boom period that came from the first five years or so after the end of TV. 

At times,Old School French wrestling seems to have been doing even better than the Old SChool British scene (big well-budgeted TV tapings etc) and like the UK scene I know it's still out there to this day (although blighted by the whole ridiculous blood feud between Mercier/FFCP and Richard/Gordon/WS. )   I'd still like to hear the views of a French fan that lived through - and grew up with - this period of France as a wrestling territory.

[David Mantell]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

WWF on Canal + was only a "niche" thing also (which did not prevent WWF from drawing in big arenas like Bercy of course, because WWF), because Canal was a crypted channel you had to pay to get sports and movies (and pro-wrestling... and porn). Only a limited amount of people had access to it.

The same could in theory be said for WWF on Sky which you actually needed a satellite dish for (at a time when there was a lot of snobbery around about how vulgar it was to have such an appliance installed.)  Yet the WWF (and to some extent WCW) was not only scoring similar houses 1989 onwards in the UK but actually held the second coming of WrestleMania III less than 4 years after Greg Dyke cancelled the Sat afternoon ITV slot.

[El-P]

The fact Flesh Gordon and his crew was around in the 80's and 90's doesn't mean it was part of the popular culture in any way shape or form. TF1 had a bunch of episodes in 1988 and 1991 for a few weeks at about midnight during the week. Pro-wrestling in French popular culture was non-existent. It was a thing of the past, of the 50's and 60's, which is also the period referred to by Eddie Carpentier on WWF shows, because that's what he knew. That's when my father as a teenager was sneaking in with his friends to watch some L'angle blanc or Le bourreau de Béthune.

The closest thing to Flesh Gordon getting pop culture "credency" was his appearance on one episode of "Strip-tease", which is amazingly cringe (because that was what the show was about). Pro-wrestling in France was thought of something from the pre-Mai 68 period. Lino Ventura was the big movie star that used to be a pro-wrestler in the post-war period. Robert Duranton's most famous thing ever is probably his appearance on the classic comedy "Le Corniaud" in one scene alongside Louis de Funes in 1965.

Did pro-wrestling disappear in France in the 80's and 90's ? Obviously not. I saw Flesh Gordon, Zephy, Jesse Texas and some other guy (don't remember who) at a festival in around 1991, wrestling in a ring set-up in the middle of a fucking harbour. Yes, a floating ring in the middle of the water I mean (before FMW did it, hey, here's FMW again). They were around. Were they part of the popular culture, in the sense of most people being at least aware of them ? Hell no. Was it relevant in term of keeping a scene alive. I guess, to an extent. You can find a bunch of names who came to France at this period. Hell, you can find Flesh Gordon vs "Future PCO", which makes the six degrees of separation game quite mind-blowing, really. So yes, it existed. It sure did. Was it relevant to French popular culture overall ? Nope.

And really, neither was WWE before the Catch Attack era in the late 00's (although they did a few big shows in France during the Hulkamania days because Canal +, despite being much smaller in term of audience, was also very much the hype of these years, but WWF did not come to France for years after 1993, whereas they were all over the UK and Germany). That was the peak of pro-wrestling in French pop culture in the last 50 years. In 2013 not one but two French pro-wrestling movies were released. One as an art-house homage to the "old-school" of the 50's and 60's. The other one a mainstream comedy directly inspired by the popularity of WWE then. 

[David Mantell]

6 hours ago, El-P said:

Yes, a floating ring in the middle of the water

This was a thing in France going back donkey's years, back to the 70s in fact.

Oddly enough I had the exact same idea when I was little, one night asleep in bed where I dreamed that there was a swimming pool in next doors' garden (there wasn't but never mind) and there was a wrestling ring in it and today there was going to be a show of Water Wrestling!

[David Mantell]

6 hours ago, El-P said:

Pro-wrestling in French popular culture was non-existent. It was a thing of the past, of the 50's and 60's, which is also the period referred to by Eddie Carpentier on WWF shows, because that's what he knew. That's when my father as a teenager was sneaking in with his friends to watch some L'angle blanc or Le bourreau de Béthune.

I guess I'll take your word for it (it would explain the period-costume spectator extras on FR3's La Derniere Manchette at a time when A2 was still screening matches.)  Non-relevance however can be a relative matter.  In the UK 1988 the standalone Sat lunchtime Wrestling show was doing 3 million.  That's about double what RAW does in America each Monday night these days!  

[Phil Lions]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:14 AM, David Mantell said:

Late Nineties/ early Noughties. IWSF on tour internationally in FYR Macedonia - I guess that's Macedonian the MC is speaking.  Flesh hasn't yet got his bald head, tache and paunch although he's got a W hairline like he's Road Warrior Animal. Jacky Richard in his final phase as Monsieur Jacky the evil heel Commissioner in shirt, tie and braces, looking like the head of George  Steele on the body of IRS after too many fry-ups for breakfast on the road. Zefy still in his prime. Scott Rider, Flesh's nemesis, the French Giant  Haystacks in a kilt. Ring looks like a relic from the TV days. I believe there's some more on that YouTube channel, will check it out.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, David. I would have never expected there to have been a show in Macedonia during that time frame. Greece, Turkey or Serbia - perhaps, but Macedonia - no way! That is very surprising for me to find out. It's just so random. The fact that a French promotion had a show in Macedonia and especially the fact that it was taped is kind of blowing my mind. Looks like they had a pretty good crowd too.

I'm familiar with the Macedonian language so I can understand about 80% of what the announcer said. He provided no clues as to exact location or year, unfortunately. He referred to Flesh Gordon as a world champion on multiple occasions throughout the match. At one point he was alluding to the fact that the match was under the rules of New Catch International so perhaps this was the promotional name they used in Macedonia? But then a little bit later on he also mentioned the European Catch Federation. Also, fun fact: the word for pro wrestler in Macedonian is "кечер" (catcher), which is obviously almost the same as the French catcheur.

I tried searching for more info on this show on Google in Macedonian pages, but nothing turned up. I've also reached out to a Macedonian contact of mine, who is from the amateur wrestling world and not too familiar with the pro stuff, but he said he'll look into it. Hopefully he manages to find some extra info, because I'm very, very intrigued this.

[David Mantell]

Greece of course was a wrestling Territory unto itself before finally sputtering out in 1991 (you can see some Sept '87 footage on page 19 of the British Wrestling thead.)
All Star in Britain did tours of Israel in the late 80s and the Gulf States in the early 90s (I've got an old magazine with some great photos of Blondie Barrett and Kashmir Singh in the ring together in what looks like it could be any hall in Britain except the front row are all wearing haed-dresses and white robes.)

So maybe it's not so odd for a succesful West European old school promotion to do a tour like that.  What's eyecatching is the high production values of the TV and the big, mostly child audience.  Which suggests that there was some sort of TV show (maybe some relative of Eurostars in Belgium?  - I'm not clear exactly what their setup was) exporting episodes out there just as ITV and (O)RTF both used to do in the 50s/60s hence the b/w film prints from the era both in the locked Granada archive and the uploaded INA films.

Whatever the current state of old school British/French/German wrestling, all three are in considerably better condition than any old time US/Canadian territory you care to mention (obvious exception Capitol/WWWF/WWF which now lives on as WWE)

[Phil Lions]

50 minutes ago, David Mantell said:

Greece of course was a wrestling Territory unto itself before finally sputtering out in 1991 (you can see some Sept '87 footage on page 19 of the British Wrestling thead.)

All Star in Britain did tours of Israel in the late 80s and the Gulf States in the early 90s (I've got an old magazine with some great photos of Blondie Barrett and Kashmir Singh in the ring together in what looks like it could be any hall in Britain except the front row are all wearing haed-dresses and white robes.)

So maybe it's not so odd for a succesful West European old school promotion to do a tour like that.  What's eyecatching is the high production values of the TV and the big, mostly child audience.  Which suggests that there was some sort of TV show (maybe some relative of Eurostars in Belgium?  - I'm not clear exactly what their setup was) exporting episodes out there just as ITV and (O)RTF both used to do in the 50s/60s hence the b/w film prints from the era both in the locked Granada archive and the uploaded INA films.

Macedonia back then doesn't strike me as a financially viable destination for an international tour, nor was it a place where I would have imagined anyone taping wrestling show. Hence my amazement at this.

Yes, in the Balkan region Greece was the top spot for pro wrestling. Not always, but most of the time, and pro wrestling there lasted the longest. Yugoslavia used to have a tour-based scene into the late 1960s, maybe early 1970s. Turkey had a scene too that died around the same time. Romania's scene died out in the early 1940s while Bulgaria's lasted until the mid-to-late 1940s. In the past couple of decades there have been local indie promotions that have popped up in most of these countries as well as a few shows by international companies. Overall though, it's a very small scene today.

A while back I posted a topic with a bunch of Greek footage (including the footage that you've posted). It's all here:

[David Mantell]

If Wrestling Stars/Eurostars has/had some kind of TV show (as I recall was implied on their old website back in the day) then they could well have been selling episodes abroad to foreign channels whose viewers were following the exploits of Flesh Gordon, Scott Ryder etc.

A lot of the 1950s French kinescopes on Matt D's channel have Arabic captions on them so I guess RTF were selling prints to the former colonies in North Africa (most obviously Algeria and Tunisia) and the former French Mandates in Syria/Lebanon.   Sinilarly. Pat Roach mentions in Simon Garfield's book being shown a document listing 30 countries ITV's British wrestling was being sold to, probably also as b/w kinescopes like the Vic Faulkner/Mick McMichael bout from 1972..