French catch

[David Mantell]

https://web.archive.org/web/20050204001106/http://www.eurostars.be/

Finland too, apparently.

[David Mantell]

Quote

Macedonia back then doesn't strike me as a financially viable destination for an international tour, nor was it a place where I would have imagined anyone taping wrestling show. Hence my amazement at this.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20040624152254/http://www.eurostars.be/novzef2.htm

"Former East-Block countries have surprised me to be so enthousiast. E.g. our tour in Macedonia was much more succesful than I could have ever thought." - Prince Zéfy, November 2002.

[David Mantell]

23 hours ago, Phil Lions said:

Turkey had a scene too that died around the same time. 

Quote

August 22, 1970: A group of English pro wrestlers would soon be wrestling in Eskişehir, Balıkesir, Bursa and Ankara. No names mentioned.

I think this was the tour party Orig Williams mentioned in his memoirs, including one lady wrestler who had to wrestle a male wrestler in drag with various body parts gaffer-taped away out of sight after the other lady wrestler failed to show up at Heathrow Airport for the flight out.

[Phil Lions]

I reached out to a few people about the Macedonian show and luckily Bernard Vandamme, who also wrestled on that tour, provided some details. According to him Flesh Gordon organized a tour of Macedonia in 1996 (so this was before IWSF/WS). They did shows in Bitola, Strumica, Kumanovo and Skopje. Not sure if this was the case for all of the events, but at least one aired on local TV. There were also plans to do shows in Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey, but the plans got cancelled.

I think the match above is from Kumanovo, because I think I heard the Macedonian announcer mention Kumanovo at one point.

[David Mantell]

So when exactly did IWSF/WS come into existence and what exactly is Eurostars, both in itself and in relation to WS?

Cagematch says Eurostars started in 1992 and on the evidence of both the Macedonia footage and my memories of visiting their website back in the day.

This is their FB: https://www.facebook.com/eurostarswrestling Last show on there was 12 months ago in Bruges but then again, John Freemantle's Premier Promotions still functions despite not using its FB in nearly a decade.

Oh yes and they're from Belgium (as Kent Walton said of the Masked Marauders)

[Phil Lions]

I can't answer that. All I can say is that when I asked him whether this was an IWSF or EuroStars tour, Bernard told me this tour was before either one of those promotional names. He may be misremembering, I don't know. And besides, neither one of the promotions is mentioned in the footage. In the footage the Macedonian announcer mentions only "New Catch International" and "European Catch Federation" (or European Federation of Catheurs, if I am to translate what he said more literally).

[David Mantell]

Okay -Prince Zefy seems to think it was under the Eurostars banner in that interview quote I posted above, but anyway *shrug*

[Phil Lions]

I'm still quite intrigued by this Macedonian tour. For what it's worth, Prince Zefy finally got back to me as well and his version of events is a bit different than Bernard Vandamme's. According to Zefy the tour was in 1998 and they did two shows - Skopje (which aired lived on TV) and Pristina. Like Vandamme, he says the crowds were good, but they never returned for a second tour.

I don't know if I buy that though. Kosovo (where Pristina is) was in the middle of a war in 1998-99 and I'm having a hard time buying the idea of a wrestling show there during that time. The war officially broke out at the end of February 1998 so, perhaps if the show was earlier in the year, I guess it's possible, but still I'm more inclined to believe Vandamme's version of events. I've asked Zefy some follow-up questions, but he hasn't replied back. I've also reached out to a few other people from the tour, but no response yet.

[David Mantell]

>(which aired lived on TV) 
Any word on what sort of TV?  Terestrial, satellite, local, national, international?

Wrestling Stars' website at http://www.catch.fr is still up but it seems to be more aimed at town officials to get them to book a show than to punters to get them to attend one - "Let Flesh Gordon Bring Catch To Your Town".

Still would like a neutral explanation of the FFCP/Mercier vs WS/Gordon/Richard dispute - something a bit more informative than "See the other lot?  it's THEIR fault! They're thugs and crooks! Don't talk to them or we won't tlak to you!" 

Richard mentions some tax threshold Mercier senior (Guy) got the authorities to level which made business harder for independents. They say is was just a scam to deny them business, Mercier Junior replies that his dad did what he did to keep scumbags like the other lot out.  (Bear in mind this is the same Guy Mericer that was in on inventing ideas like it being OK for good guys to beat up the referee.)  

As I said earlier, it all seems very "six to one, half-a-dozen to the other" but if anyone has any clues, it will help us understand whuy they seem more interested in destroying each other than battling both WWE and the Americanised ICWA (French equivalent of LDN/FWA/UWA etc in England or GWF in Germany).

[David Mantell]

Another thing that needs explaining - the system of bonuses - "primes" - that were given out to wrestlers over the course of a match, something that seems to have hit its peak in the late '70s.

There seems to have been quite a lot of these Primes handed out to both men - and the referee - in this match.  How did this work?  What were the rules about it?  How did it start?  Why was it apparently quietly done away with some time after?

************************************************************

By the way, if anyone has a bad word to say about the public sports hall venues Rumble in England uses for some of its 2020s Youtube Channel videos (shot at family accessible Matinee shows at public Leisure Centres.), I don't want to hear them anymore after looking at the SHABBY 1970s baseball court of a civic sports hall with its plastered-and-painted blue walls at which this August 1978 bout was taped.  Fortunately when ITV had to film at a place like this, they would darken the lights except for the ring, so it could look like anywhere, the ring as a splash of light and colour among the murk.  Jean Pradinas who directed most of the Antenne 2/FR3 matches in the 1980s used the same trick, with maybe the odd baseball hoop visible in the gloom.  This place - I thought from the big window it was a temporarily converted swimming pool or "baths hall" as they were known in Britain, uintil I remembered this was screened in August so probably filmed any time over the summer of 1978 in France when swimming pools would be in demand.  In any case France is the home of the floating ring so they would have done one of those shows if it was a pool.

[David Mantell]

21 hours ago, David Mantell said:

public sports hall venues Rumble in England uses for some of its 2020s Youtube Channel video

for example:

Compare that ^^^ to the sports venue in 1978 France in the video.

Actually this venue looks sort of similar but still more modern and less Sixties Brutalist:

[Phil Lions]

I figured out the promotional aspect of the Macedonian tour. I don't know why I didn't make the connection earlier, but it all makes sense now. You know how I was saying the Macedonian announcer mentioned "European Federation of Catheurs" and the match being under the rules of "New Catch International"? "European Federation of Catheurs" would be Fédération Européenne de Catch (FEC), also known as European Wrestling Federation (EWF). Founded in France in the mid 1980s and, apparently, lasted until 1996. They were the same company that had a TV deal with Eurosport and they shared the timeslot with Otto Wanz's CWA in the early 1990s. The Eurosport show was called... "New Catch". By 1996 they had been off Eurosport TV for a few years but I guess they were still using the "New Catch" name to an extent.

[David Mantell]

 I thought the EWF was a collaboration of several promoters including Orig Williams - the EWF name smacks of him viz. the BWF.  A lot of UK wrestlers - Danny Collins, the Superflies, Doc Dean, Owen Hart, Colonel Brody, Kid McCoy, Scrubber Daly participated in the Eurosport TV tapings - of the above only Danny had really made a name for himself in France with summer tours in the late 80s defending the Euro Welterweight title in France and Northern Spain for Delaporte (it's just bad luck of the draw he was not on FR3 in front of Jean Pradinas's cameras AFAIK). The rest were imported seemingly fresh from the Dixon-Orig axis.

You could be right about the FEC connection, I'd like to know more about Eurostars and the TV deal I recall them having.

[David Mantell]

Regarding the subject of Primes, it seems from the  commentary on that 1978 Siki-Schmid match  that audience members would hand these cash sums as tips to the MC in exchange for getting their smartarse comments read out to the live audience and the viewers at home.

[David Mantell]

6 hours ago, David Mantell said:

of the above only Danny had really made a name for himself in France with summer tours in the late 80s defending the Euro Welterweight title in France and Northern Spain for Delaporte

Just to show you all how popular Danny Collins was in France - check out how over he is with this French crowd:

Notice how he can rev up the crowd to RIOT level even with a speech in a  (to them) foreign language with a strong regional accent (SW/Bristolian)

[David Mantell]

By the way, what exactly did TF1 have to do with Eurosport New Catch?  Their logo is all over the tapings!

[Phil Lions]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:20 PM, Phil Lions said:

For what it's worth, Prince Zefy finally got back to me as well and his version of events is a bit different than Bernard Vandamme's. According to Zefy the tour was in 1998 and they did two shows - Skopje (which aired lived on TV) and Pristina. Like Vandamme, he says the crowds were good, but they never returned for a second tour.

I had asked Zefy some follow-up questions and he just got back to me now. After I had questioned it, he corrected himself on the year - he says the Macedonian tour was in October 1996. And he also says that they went to Macedonia on their way back from a tournament in Congo.
 

2 hours ago, David Mantell said:

By the way, what exactly did TF1 have to do with Eurosport New Catch?  Their logo is all over the tapings!

I believe EWF used to also air on TF1. As for the TF1 / Eurosport connection, Eurosport was originally owned by Sky, but then the TF1 group took ownership of the channel in 1991.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, David Mantell said:

By the way, what exactly did TF1 have to do with Eurosport New Catch?  Their logo is all over the tapings!

TF1 broadcasted Flesh Gordon's promotion twice on French TV for a very short while. Once in 1988, the other in 1991 (which I actually watched, since I would watch anything pro-wrestling than as a very new fan). That Collins/Harvey vs Ocean/Dean match I'm pretty sure I saw then on TF1 actually (with French announcing of course), likewise the Lailee vs Kapo Woman match I posted earlier.

[David Mantell]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, Phil Lions said:

I believe EWF used to also air on TF1.

AHA!!!! So that solves the mystery of why no one can remember when French wrestling ended on TV - when FR3 and Jean Pradinas' production team finally threw in the towel, Le Catch simply slunk back to its original home at the station long ago known as RTF 1er Chaine and no one really noticed it had been away.

Admittedly also, in the case of British Wrestling Greg Dyke chose to make a big announcement of the pulling of the plug at a major press conference at some big international TV fair in Switzerland whereas French TV simply passed the parcel from Antenne 2 to FR3 back to TF1 and eventually whatever stations Eurostars aired on.It never really got scrapped until waaaay later.

[El-P]

19 hours ago, David Mantell said:

AHA!!!! So that solves the mystery of why no one can remember when French wrestling ended on TV - when FR3 and Jean Pradinas' production team finally threw in the towel, Le Catch simply slunk back to its original home at the station long ago known as RTF 1er Chaine and no one really noticed it had been away.

Because no one noticed it was on to begin with. And it *was* scrapped. There was some shows on TF1 in 1988, how much I dunno, but most probably not many. And then there were a few shows for a few weeks in 1991. That particular string of shows started with an introductory bit about how "Pro-wrestling is back on TF1". So yeah, it had been scrapped a while ago. And was scrapped again very quickly. Never to be shown again on terrestrial TV. In the Strip-tease episode I referred to before, which dates from 1995, you can hear Flesh Gordon, in between awfully vulgar and sexist shit, complaining about how celebrity sports announcers were the reasons why the show was scrapped because they did not like wrestling, and despite the fact they did great ratings even though they were programmed at midnight on Monday (which they were). Sure...

Shows were shown on Eurosport under the New Catch (or Nu Catch, depending on the source, and I guess the language) around the same time, but my best guess is that it did not last very long. I have no recollection of it, and I used to watch Ring Warriors/WSW (aka NJPW) on Eurosport all the time during these years. If to believe a source from WrestlingClassic, it only aired for a few months in 1991 too (and Ring Warriors/WSW only started in late 93).

But it would be a stretch to even call that "old-school French wrestling" anyway, considering how many guys from England, CWA and even Mexico (through the UWA) were booked. Well, the name said it, it was supposed to be "european", because it was supposed to be showed on Eurosport to begin with, to French, German and UK audiences. Hell, the opening credits of the first show on TF1 even had Vader vs Otto Wanz on it, as well as Dave Taylor, and I highly doubt this was anything but some CWA footage.

[David Mantell]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

In the Strip-tease episode I referred to before, which dates from 1995, you can hear Flesh Gordon, in between awfully vulgar and sexist shit, complaining about how celebrity sports announcers were the reasons why the show was scrapped because they did not like wrestling, and despite the fact they did great ratings even though they were programmed at midnight on Monday (which they were). Sure...

I imagine there is probably some truth in what Gordon is saying - some of the worst snobbery against wrestling in the British media came from the rest of IT. Sport who felt their coverage of serious Athletics and top flight Football suffered from the association with wrestling with "serious" sports fans boycotting WoS and, although the wrestling itself scored well in ratings, the rest of the show suffered from the inclusion of wrestling. Dickie Davies claimed to not stand it, although that didn't stop him presenting two DVDs of it in the mid Noughties.

Earlier in the thread we discussed the mutiny that occurred among RTF staff in 1958 after one of their number broke kayfabe on air, so they viewed being disrespectful towards wrestling as being a key part of their journalistic freedom.Hence the snide sarcastic attitude of many French commentators including Daniel Cazal. (Apparently  though he tended to poke fun and be "urbanely witty" about everything he covered.).  Has he ever done any interviews about his time as commentator?

By the way, judging from the speaking clock tracks on the INA videos on Matt D's channel, the typical timeslot in the late 70s and 80s was 10pm to 11pm on a variety of evenings although there seem to have been a few screenings on Sundays at about 5pm.

[David Mantell]

5 hours ago, El-P said:

But it would be a stretch to even call that "old-school French wrestling" anyway, considering how many guys from England, CWA and even Mexico (through the UWA) were booked.

Well there was traditionally a lot of flow back and forth between all three territories - I would liken Scrubber Daly Vs Kid McCoy or Danny Collins and John Harvey to the 1978 Pete Roberts Vs Dave Blond match in French TV. That was still just about French wrestling.

it cut the other way of course - Jean Corne, Khader Hassouni, an unusually well-behaved Jacky Richard, Le Grand Vladimir, Jean Paul Auvert, Marc Mercier and Indio Guajaro (as Jacques Le Jacques) all appeared on TV as earlier in time did Le Petit Prince, Jean Ferre etc. Flesh Gordon did do Reslo even if not ITV.

 

[El-P]

1 hour ago, David Mantell said:

Hence the snide sarcastic attitude of many French commentators including Daniel Cazal. (Apparently  though he tended to poke fun and be "urbanely witty" about everything he covered.). 

You mean the guy who actually gave results of a totally made-up sport in the most serious way during the most watched weekly sport magazine (and made it a running gag for a while if I remember) ? Yep, he was indeed a tongue-in-cheek joker.

As far as many French announcers having a snide sarcastic attitude, I dunno. Not saying it wasn't there, but the most famous of them all, Roger Couderc, certainly did not, and he was the voice of the classic era of French pro-wrestling. I actually remember to this day of Eddie Carpentier saying a word about Claude Darget when he died in 1992 during a WWF show, and from what I remember he seemed to respect him a lot (it's kinda blurry though, he also talked about Couderc quite often).

[David Mantell]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:57 PM, El-P said:

You mean the guy who actually gave results of a totally made-up sport in the most serious way during the most watched weekly sport magazine (and made it a running gag for a while if I remember) ? Yep, he was indeed a tongue-in-cheek joker.

I found a YouTube bio piece onn Cazal which I posted a couple of pages back where another TV pundit calls him urbanely witty or somesuch.  I guess an example of this being him calling a ringside chair Mammouth  Siki uses to get back in the ring against Daniel Schmid "L'escalier de service" like as if the ring was a posh hotel or something.

Couderc was apparently a different kettle of fish, his thing was to be wildly partial to Les Bons. When he got sacked for having sided with the students in May 68, he got a job with Swiss radio commenting on Rugby and similarly was  wildly partial towards the French team to the point where one national team manager called him the the "sixteenth man of the XV (fifteen-strong national Rugby side) of France".

[David Mantell]

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc37UPvelZQ
 

This was the Cazal piece in question I posted earlier - unforunately the link could not be embedded because www.youtube.com does not allow embedding of that video. Bah.

There's a fellow presenter singing Cazal's praises (I can't quite catch what he says) and I think your imaginary sport gets a mention.