1980s Lucha Wrestling Party #4

[goodhelmet]

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...6382&cmd=tc

Solar, Ultraman y Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hermoso, Bello Greco y Rudy Reyna (2/26/84)

Enrique Vera vs. Dos Caras (2/26/84)

Jerry Estrada vs. Ultraman (3/2/84)

Tony Salazar vs. Herodes (3/2/84)

Hijo del Santo, Ringo Mendoza y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Jerry Estrada, Fuerza Guerrera y Talisman (3/9/84)

Lizmark vs. El Satanico (April 1984)

 

 

 

Join me, Johnny Sorrow, Kris Zellner and Childs for at least 5 of the 6 matches. I mysteriously disappear for the last match and the other guys take it home. Another AWESOME night of wrestling. Also, ignore the last two hours if you download this show. Some idiot fell asleep and didn't end the show properly.

[goodhelmet]

My rankings for the matches...

 

Tony Salazar vs. Herodes (3/2/84)

Hijo del Santo, Ringo Mendoza y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Jerry Estrada, Fuerza Guerrera y Talisman (3/9/84)

Jerry Estrada vs. Ultraman (3/2/84)

Lizmark vs. El Satanico (April 1984)

Solar, Ultraman y Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hermoso, Bello Greco y Rudy Reyna (2/26/84)

Enrique Vera vs. Dos Caras (2/26/84)

[goodhelmet]

Updated the link. should work now.

[Matt D]

One thing Will says here is that you can't criticize Super Astro's comedy magic if you're going to criticize Chikara's comedy magic. I kind of feel like you can extrapolate that to some of the spottier stuff on the set or some of the bloodier brawls/cage matches on the last set and maybe some of the stuff here relative to other current indies.

 

I also am with Will that the selling (and thus in a lot of ways the psychology) is stronger in the brawls. If you just explained things to me on paper coming in, I would have thought I'd like the title matches far more than the brawls but it really hasn't been the case. The lucha brawls are really primal and logical. Maybe I'm still not reading the psychology in every title match, but about half of them really do have good storytelling that I can pick up on and the other half feels like it has a lot of matwork done for the sake of matwork, basically. It's cool matwork but I'm not 100% sure I want to just write off some of the "this is just the style in a title match" excuses when about half of them really feel gripping to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

Title match wrestling is the real art to lucha libre. Brawling is easier, which is why less talented guys still have entertaining wager matches. Title matches require a higher level of skill and not many workers are good at them. They're what separate the great workers from the good ones. We'll almost never hear a lucha fan say a guy got carried in a classic title match because in title matches both guys have to contribute, whereas with the wager match formula it's easy for a top guy to carry someone through a brawl.

[Matt D]

So far, to me, the hard part isn't necessarily "keeping up," though that's obviously hard. It's keeping up while still making the matwork actually feel like it means something. I feel like the matwork's been good in all of the title matches on the first two discs so far but it's only felt like it mattered on about half of them. That's what I was trying to say.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you don't think the matwork matters then it's probably a good indication that the match isn't that good. There's only a small amount of really great lucha title matches in my opinion and only a handful from the 80s.

 

Having said that, the matwork means what people want it to mean. For some it might be a battle for machismo, for others it may be purely about technique. Some may look for psychology in it and others might look for it to reveal character. I'd like to think it encompasses all of those things. There are natural laws to lucha title matches like the technicos being technically superior and the rudos relying more on brute strength and then there are exceptions to those laws like Satanico or Mocho Cota being amazingly gifted. Then there's the commission and the requirements for sportsmanship and gentlemanly behaviour, which are sometimes broken by the rudo and his second. On top of that, is the desire for the rudo to prove his worth in what is basically the antithesis of his specialty, the brawl or the wager match. There's usually plenty going on it a title match because they're more often than not connected to a feud or longstanding rivalry.

[Childs]

Matt, have you watched the Satanico-Cochisse match yet? To me, that's about the perfect title match.

[Matt D]

I watched it before the set. It was the very first title match i saw so I'm looking forward to going through it again now that I know a little more. It was also my first Satanico match. I did do a write up of it. Let me find it.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5557495

 

In the exchange that follows, I'm a glorious, reprehensible ass to OJ too.

[Matt D]

If you don't think the matwork matters then it's probably a good indication that the match isn't that good. There's only a small amount of really great lucha title matches in my opinion and only a handful from the 80s.

I just saw the first fall of Lizmark vs Satanico and it sure as hell felt like it mattered there.

 

Also, neither here nor there but Wiskowski has an awesome "body dive" where he just does that jumping sit on the neck that Lizmark does here.

[Matt D]

Matt, have you watched the Satanico-Cochisse match yet? To me, that's about the perfect title match.

Alright, I just watched the match again. I wasn't watching it with you guys (I got ran off during the last match, sorry), but this time I picked up on a lot more subtext. I'm still not 100% sure on what I saw, but it felt a lot more like what people have described to me when they describe a title match. It may not be my favorite one on the set so far though, because others have elements that are less "perfect title match" but that call to me more.

 

Here's what I just said at DVDVR:

 

There are other first falls that I think tell stronger stories or are more aggressive, or more focused. This one works in a slightly different way. The ones I've liked so far are either about speed vs power or about wanting to actually hurt someone (even in some of the title style matches, like in the last Satanico one). This to me was more about really wanting to win, which I think is a much more difficult thing to get across. You get the sense that Satanico especially is not just trying to win but trying to win within the confines of the tradition. I kind of liken him to 85 Tully, where he came into every match wanting to play it straight but ultimately got outclassed, except for the scope and stage is bigger here, and Satanico is more prepared. I have no idea if that's accurate, but it's the feeling I get from getting to know him earlier in the set. So yes, other, stronger first falls, but this, to me, is more definitive for what everyone told me a Lucha Title Match's first fall should be. It's the most iconic of the bunch.

 

I think there's really that same element of gamesmanship in the second fall too. There is really the potential of a very sophisticated story here, and I think one reason why it won't do as well as the MS-1 brawl is that there just isn't as much evidence that it's there. There's a lot more connecting of dots necessary. I think, if you really watch the 83 MS-1 match, you can't help but see the story. It's minimalist and primal. This, here, in the second fall, has elements of both guys going to the same well, and when neither can really get an advantage they end up on the ground like frustrated beasts. Cochisse gets a lightning fall out of nowhere.

 

I do think a lot of the third fall is about whether or not an old dog can change his stripes. The stakes are so high that Cochisse obviously feels like he can't give him the chance and he can't afford not to take advantage after he crosses the line (before Satanico crosses it for him?). Satanico's selling and body language is amazing in the third fall, as other people have said. I feel like he's almost too good at selling on the set. There are earlier matches where you want to have sympathy for the devil. Here, you finally get to. He hangs on, avoids, just barely, the low blow (Which i probably give too much weight to but it really stood out), and he wins while keeping his head above water. This is one of those times where it's almost a shame that wrestling is a never-ending, serialized form of fiction, because it seems like this is a perfect ending for Satanico, while knowing, of course, that if it has to go one even another day, he's going to end up back in his old ways, because he's this embodiment of sleazy darkness.

 

The problem with the match is that I honestly don't know how much of that i just pulled out of my ass. We all have slightly different readings of it. We all have some similarities. People who know lucha the best kind of look at some of us like we're morons or just plain wrong here, and I don't know. People said that I read too much into the Hour Long Draw that won the AWA set but I felt really confident about that from the work. Here, I feel like there's a cool story in my head but I just don't know if it's actually one backed-up by the undeniably interesting ringwork. I didn't feel a lot of it last time the first time I saw it (and i was watching really closely) after all.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not sure I buy the Tully comparison. Satanico was probably legit the best worker in Mexico at the time and never got outclassed even when he was showing ass in Infernales matches. The Cochisse match isn't some perfect example of how to work a title match. It was part of a heated feud between the two, which is what gives it its edge.

[Matt D]

So do title matches just suck then, or what?

 

You're very good at making lucha not nearly as fun, you know. I swear it's some sort of karmic thing getting back at me for my past transgressions.

[goodhelmet]

I don't think they suck at all. Even just doing matwork for 30 minutes is a mind game. A guy is going to slip and get counted down for three. The guy with less mental slips wins. Pretty simple. It doesn't hurt that the work is actually pretty when being executed.

[Matt D]

What I'm hearing from OJ here is that any title match at seems particularly heated or aggressive or intense or anything that's not, you know, Rheingans vs Martel with the world's biggest stakes (and I say that as someone who could appreciate it as much as the next guy and more if the next guy is some of you), is an outlier and exception and not really indicative of most title matches.

[goodhelmet]

The lucha set would not be the same without OJ. With that said, he is only one voice.

[Matt D]

I'd love to hear Kris' take on the question, then. I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing the background he adds on the lucha podcasts so far and it's been as big help. Likewise, I'd like to hear more from Childs since he raised the question.

[ohtani's jacket]

So do title matches just suck then, or what?

It depends whether you like matwork, dives and pure lucha libre wrestling.

 

I think Satanico/Cochisse is a brilliant match with a compelling narrative, but it's not the norm for lucha libre title matches. It's one of the all-time great lucha libre title matches, which makes it an exceptional match not an atypical one. The same is true for the first Rocca/Cota match. No matter how awesome it is, it's not the norm for title match wrestling because Cota cheats. 99% of the time wrestlers will not cheat in lucha libre title matches, but Cota does because he's nuts.

 

I don't think you can go into lucha title matches looking for character. You can't say "okay this guy's the rudo and this guy's the technico and this guy's doing this because of this character trait and this guy's doing this because of such and such a characteristic." Title matches are more about the work. The narrative is how they arrange the events in the match to achieve a dramatic effect, so that by the time they get to the third fall and they're trading nearfalls backwards and forwards the crowd are into it. The work, and a lot of times the rhythm in my opinion, are paramount to the greatness of the match. You don't learn anything new about Blue Panther by watching him have a great title match. You just get the pleasure of seeing Blue Panther work a great title match. Great character workers like Satanico. Cota and Black Terry may produce far more dramatic title matches because of their selling ability, but they're producing deviations on the form. You can't really approach a title match and say okay the rudo is trying to wrestle cleanly here because he really wants to win. He's wrestling cleanly because it's a sanctioned contest. There are literally rudos who can't work this style who aren't put in these matches because they don't have the sufficient technical skills.

[ohtani's jacket]

For what it's worth, once you get to Talisman/Rocca you will see what I'd consider to be a basic, standard title match.

[KrisZ]

Title matches are just different beasts in lucha libre especially during this time period....nowaways the title matches aren't a whole lot different than any other match but that is because the business has changed so much.

 

I guess the thought about working more mat based and scientific in the title matches is because the guys respect the title and it's history so you can't go and sully it up with a bunch of violence.

[Childs]

I haven't watched nearly as much lucha as OJ, so I'm less qualified to talk about title match standards. That said, Satanico and Cochisse obeyed the spirit of the form by depicting their rivalry as one of wrestling one-upsmanship rather than blood hatred. They worked with ferocity and incorporated little gestures of disdain, but the match was ultimately about which guy could outwrestle the other, not which guy could leave the other lying bloody at ringside. I love that they created such an intense vibe without going full MS1-Sangre Chicana. That takes an incredible degree of skill, and it's why this is one of the best title matches I've seen.

[pantherwagner]

The title match essence is actually very simple. Here's the actual background:

 

Pre-1975 there were two types of major titles: National titles and NWA titles. Bouts for those titles were sanctioned by actual wrestling and boxing commissions and until the post-TV era they actually had actual shoot weigh ins as preposterous as that sounds. These bouts were also supposed to be wrestled clean, and while sometimes they allowed some rudo shenanigans, the commissions had the power to overrule the referee and the actual promoter and reverse any title changes or vacate any titles, and ban any wrestlers from making a living on their area of jurisdiction for any period of time that they considered appropriate. I know that this sounds unbelievable in this day and age. But you could be out of Arena Mexico for a month or two for brawling or trying to make your opponent bleed during a title match. Even in the mid 90s guys were banned for inciting riots or using chairs. At some point in the 90s when you saw Fuerza Guerrera disappearing from the cards for weeks you knew he'd punched some heckling fan right in the grill. Or when La Fiera, Jerry Estrada or Sangre Chicana was nowhere to be seen you knew he'd probably been too fucked up to go to the ring one night, or perhaps too fucked up to even make it to the arena, so instead they'd leave us some Monterrey gems for us to discover two decades later.

 

Even a top guy couldn't afford NOT being able to wrestle for a long time at Arena Mexico or Coliseo or Palacio de los Deportes (El Toreo was in Naucalpan, which is not in Distrito Federal, but in Mexico State which is another area). If you weren't there you didn't exist for the magazines like Lucha Libre or Box y Lucha and you'd miss on bookings all over the country because of that.

 

You could go up north and make a good living working the Guadalajara, Monterrey or Laguna loops combined with Friday shots in Tijuana or maybe Ciudad Juarez, but eventually you had to go back to the big arenas to stay relevant. Pre-AAA there were thousands (literally) of good or better wrestlers and pretty much everybody was expendable.

 

Anyway, I am rambling here. The point is that all title matches had to be played cleanly and even a dastardly rudo like Pirata Morgan had to be a gentleman even though it really was in his heart to try to bite El Dandy's forehead to make the motherfucker bleed like a pig. So he had to outsmart his opponent while not being outsmarted himself, all of this within the rules laid down by the commission

 

We had this discussion a lot back in the Smarkschoice days and I'm sure you guys have had it here sometime in the last few years. But lucha libre, and most wrestling in general, is really simple. No need to overcomplicate a product that is designed as something to be understood by the 60 year old ladies in the first row.

 

Instead of writing this long rant I could have quoted my good buddy goodhelmet and made it easier "Even just doing matwork for 30 minutes is a mind game. A guy is going to slip and get counted down for three. The guy with less mental slips wins. Pretty simple. It doesn't hurt that the work is actually pretty when being executed." THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TITLE MATCHES. Reading the posts I know most of you really get the spirit of what they are (because it is really that simple) but now you know why it is what it is.

[KrisZ]

Jose brings it yet again

[Zenjo]

Great post pantherwagner. I've always been happy to accept Lucha title matches for what they are, but it's very interesting to learn about why they are that way.

 

Was it just EMLL and the UWA that used to run the big arenas in the 80's?

Was WWA in the Monterrey area the 3rd biggest promotion?

How dominant were the top promotions in comparison with later years?

[Matt D]

Seriously, feel free to write long rants. That was very helpful. Thanks.