3/12 - Thoughts On The Following Wrestlers

[Al]

People pay to see Hogan wrestle. They didn't pay to see his movies, so clearly its not just his acting and charisma they want to see. What they get out of his matches are different from what they get out of Benoits matches, but Hogan couldn't just sleep through a match. At his peak, Hogan didn't suck in the ring and he certainly put the effort in his matches. Watch his match with Savage at WM 5, there's a ton of workrate from Hogan there.

This is a good point.

 

I think Hogan's matches were generally well-paced as well. They were smart enough to keep the matches short enough that they wouldn't drag, and I think that kept Hogan's matches more exciting.

[Loss]

Also, it should be pointed out that "great matches" don't exist in kayfabe. The point of putting on a great match isn't to make fans buy tickets on the promise of a great match, but rather to convey whatever point you're trying to make in the most memorable and effective way possible. This is Heyman-esque thinking, where he'd put a "great match" on a show just for the Hell of it, and I always hate that booking, because I think it's what started the whole good wrestlers getting pigeonholed because they're too talented thing.

 

Ric Flair had great charisma. Shawn Michaels had great charisma. But I guarantee you neither would have had whatever success they've had in wrestling without knowing how to work. Anytime Flair ever tried to transition to another person, it was never someone capable of putting out those 30-minute matches on a consistent basis, and the fans ended up deflated because they were spoiled, and the title eventually went back to Flair. I think HBK had a strong enough personality to where people either chose to cheer or boo him based on that alone, but you're crazy if you don't think the knowledge that he would put his body on the line in a long match was part of his appeal.

 

I don't really care for the term "workrate" anyway, just because it seems to imply that the only way to create a good match is to go hard and fast with lots of moves, and that's simply not true.

[Loss]

Bret Hart - The best worker and performer in the history of his company. Excellent interviews that weren't necessarily high-volume, but were believable and convincing. Was always at his most effective in a realistic setting, and was never particularly effective when they tried to do anything cartoonish or over-the-top with him. It's very sad what's happened to him in the past 10 years, because he deserved better. I'm glad that his fans still remember and respect him.

 

Shane Douglas - Already been covered.

 

Toshiaki Kawada - I prefer Kobashi, but Kawada is better. His selling is probably his strongest point, and the argument for him as Best Wrestler of the 90s is definitely a strong one. Has had great matches over the span of three decades, which is an impressive feat in itself.

 

Demolition - Road Warriors ripoffs.

 

Diamond Dallas Page - He gets a bum rep and I don't think it's entirely fair. He was probably the best main eventer WCW had from 1997 until the end, and the only one who was ever able to get good matches out of a roided up Scott Steiner and Bill Goldberg. Not the kind of guy to build around, but needed to be kept near the top at all times in a strong role. He could have gotten by based on his friendship, but he worked hard to improve anyway.

 

Al Snow - Was considered wrestling's best kept secret for many years, and never quite performed at the level expected when he got his big break. I think he got very lazy when Head got over, because he realized he didn't have to actually be a wrestler anymore. Too bad, I always liked him.

 

Scott Hall - Decent, but nothing more than that really. Shawn Michaels could have had those same matches with a couch.

 

Yuji Nagata - Haven't seen enough footage to really comment.

 

Psychosis - Already been done.

 

Steve Austin - Hard worker, great wrestler, awesome interview, huge draw. I thought he took more than he gave back after his comeback, for the most part, and I never thought he gave his opponents enough offense, be it as a face or a heel, once he made it big, but he gave the audience what they wanted, so in that sense, he can't be blamed. It was obvious even from watching him in WCW that he was destined for something big.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Bret Hart - When Hogan left the WWF, Hart became my favourite wrester. I wondered to myself, at the time, "Hey, isn't it funny that your new favourite wrestler happens to be the champ and the top guy" and I laufed (~!). Great matches with a variety of guys, and each were different. Austin, Piper, Perfect stand out to me. Also a great tag worker, one of my favourite matches is from Summerslam 1990 against Demolition. He could brawl, do a lil mat wrestling, work at a high pace. Certainly a guy I'd want on my all-time roster for his consistency and work ethic. Bought into his own hype, but then again, everyone at that level does, and if they don't think they're the hottest shit, they don't belong on top.

 

Shane Douglas - I like The Franchise probably more than I should, and I don't know why. He had all the tools to be a top guy for Vince and was made to be a fucking principal. Those great potential promos were wasted. He was a character back 10 years ago that would fit in today, and hhhas. No one knows how to use the word "fuck" better in a promo.

 

"I heard sombody say, "Franchise, please shoot a little bit for us." I don't think I know another way, so FUCK IT! From the time I was 17 years old, and stepped into this great sport, I have been, along with you people, a mother fucking history maker."

 

Toshiaki Kawada - *puts hand on chin and thinks* *as hand hits chin, acts like he has a tooth ache and face grimaces.* *stumbles backwards as if drunk* *falls down* I love Dangerous K. I, personally, think that his match against Gary Albright is his career defining match. There is no better carry job, ever, than that. You wanna know why? Because it doesn't make Albright look bad. And it's not in a way that Flair does, where its a ton of overselling and stooging for a bigger guy - this carry job is so much more subtle and if you didn't watch closely you wouldn't call it a carry job at all. I think he is very unique worker because of the style he used and how he carried himself in that ring.

 

Demolition - I had Demolition action figures as a kid. It was the Smash/Crush variety. I lost the masks that came with them. I was so angry. I was such a lil fag as a kid.

 

Diamond Dallas Page - I like DDP a lot, and have from about the time he won the battlebowl and maybe a lil bit before. He played Sleaze really well. I liked the "peoples champion" schtick and how he ran through the crowd. His match with Goldberg was insanely good. "Hey Steinah, I'M STILL STANDIN!"

 

Al Snow - One of the biggest missed opportunities the WWE has had in the last 5 years -and considering all the missed opportunities, this distinction is particularly amazing- was when they failed to follow up on his Tough Enough success. Here was a guy the fans were emotionally invested in and they didn't push him... and they could have pushed him to a ME spot and gotten away with it.

 

Scott Hall - I can't believe only one person has mentioned "NWO" yet a number of people mentioned the ladder match. This board needs more historical perspective When he came out on Nitro, it changed wrestling. Not many people can say that. It certainly jump-started my passion for wrestling.

 

Yuji Nagata - One of my favourite guys to use in WCW Revenge and I made a pretty darn good CAW of him in No Mercy.... I'm tryin real hard not to bring up Cro Cop or Fedor...damn. Aside from his WCW stuff, I haven't seen too many of his matches.

 

Psychosis - I saw him wrestle live for ECW in 2000! It was.... unimpressive. But he did get nice height on his leg drop. His match with Tajiri in ECW is one of my all time favourites, but he fell behind Juvi and Rey in terms of development in WCW, so my interest in him wasn't too great.

 

Steve Austin - Didn't much like him on Nash Bridges..

[Guest Some Guy]

...he actually said "Toothless Aggression?"  I thought I remembered it being on a shirt or something, but I didn't think he actually used it as a catchphrase.

He also had it printed on his tights at one point. The guy has had some of the ugliest tights I've ever seen. The lavender ones with the broken arm on one leg and "Rabid Wolverine" on the othre printed in red were particularily brutal.

 

From Loss:

 

Also, it should be pointed out that "great matches" don't exist in kayfabe. The point of putting on a great match isn't to make fans buy tickets on the promise of a great match, but rather to convey whatever point you're trying to make in the most memorable and effective way possible. This is Heyman-esque thinking, where he'd put a "great match" on a show just for the Hell of it, and I always hate that booking, because I think it's what started the whole good wrestlers getting pigeonholed because they're too talented thing.

That's not true. Summerslam 93 and WM 21 both have/had matches that were/are built up as great matches or "show stealers". HBK/Perfect at SS 93 dissapointed a little and Shawn/Kurt hasn't happened yet. SS 93 was built up by the announcers like this: Yeah, they don't like each other but damn it will be a great match. Those are two matches of the top of my head that were advertised as though they were going to be the best match on the show. So the moral of the story is that "great matches" do exist in kayfabe, they just all have to be HBK matches, I guess.

 

Ric Flair had great charisma. Shawn Michaels had great charisma. But I guarantee you neither would have had whatever success they've had in wrestling without knowing how to work. Anytime Flair ever tried to transition to another person, it was never someone capable of putting out those 30-minute matches on a consistent basis, and the fans ended up deflated because they were spoiled, and the title eventually went back to Flair. I think HBK had a strong enough personality to where people either chose to cheer or boo him based on that alone, but you're crazy if you don't think the knowledge that he would put his body on the line in a long match was part of his appeal.

Ring work is part of the mix. But being a great technical worker isn't in terms of success. Every guy who has drawn money on a national level in wrestling has been good at their style or the fans loved how they worked. Hogan, Goldberg, and Andre were not great workers in the Bret Hart sense of the term but the fans really got into their matches. I agree that part of the appeal on HBK was that he killed himself in the ring. Being a great performer was part of his gimmick and built up ("the most resilient superstar in the WWF").

 

On a semi-related note: Other than Sting who else did Flair try to transition to? I can't remember another guy who he tried to pass the torch to. He's jobbed a lot and put a lot of guys over but GAB90 is the only match I can remember when one felt like the new big thing was being crowned adn then Flair dropped down and worked with AA in tags before the Scorpion angle flopped and they needed him. It seems to me that WCW tried to transition past him a few times but he fought it tooth and nail.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I think the term "technical" is thrown around way too liberally, in this thread and in general.

[Guest Some Guy]

I was using it for lack of a better way to describe styles.

[Loss]

I agree with Rudo. It's not the style that's important, it's the way it's worked and presented. There are better spotfests than mat-based matches. There are better brawls than both. First and foremost, the match has to make sense.

 

Yes, SG, those matches were built up as show-stealers, but that wasn't the entire appeal of the match. They actually created a backstory for HBK/Hennig, just as they are for HBK/Angle. My problem was with the way Heyman would throw Eddy and Malenko out there or Rey and Psicosis out there or Rey and Juvi out there with no build at all. WCW did the exact same thing.

 

Sting was the first time a truly "new era" was tried, and that was one of the reasons it didn't work. Flair also tried to transition to Hogan, and the fans resented it because it went against everything they thought WCW stood for. There wasn't really anyone else Flair was in a position to put over, except maybe Luger, and it would have ended up the same way the Sting push did in the long run. Flair never really fought it because they didn't try too often. A more accurate view of what kept happening was that the company would try to go in another direction, it wouldn't work, and they'd turn to Flair to bail them out of it.

[Guest Bruiser Chong]

Bret Hart: Up until 1997, my favorite wrestler, hands down. I didn't go for his heel character at the time, but mainly because I had grown up watching a guy who had battled the odds his entire career, and never took anything for granted. Thus, buying him as a whining pansy (which, in retrospect, he did execute well) was a tough pill to swallow back then.

 

I'd say his IC title days were my favorite. I was happy to see him elevated to the next level, but something just didn't seem right after that.

 

Favorite Matches

 

w/ Jim Neidhart vs. Demolition (2/3 Falls Tag Team Title match @ Summerslam '90)

vs. Mr. Perfect (IC Title match @ Summerslam '91)

vs. Roddy Piper (IC Title match @ Wrestlemania VIII)

vs. Razor Ramon (WWF Title match @ Royal Rumble '93)

vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (King of the Ring Finals @ KOTR '93)

vs. Steve Austin (Survivor Series '96)

 

Demolition: A terrible team by a technical basis, but one of the most popular duos to ever grace a WWF ring. Even though they were Road Warrior knockoffs, their popularity at their peak could be easily compared with the Road Warriors'. Most of their matches are hard to watch today, but they had the right look, gimmick and were in the right place at the right time.

 

Favorite Matches

 

vs. Hart Foundation (WWF Tag Team Title match @ Summerslam '88)

vs. Andre & Haku (WWF Tag Team Title match @ Wrestlemania VI)

vs. Hart Foundation (WWF Tag Team Title match @ Summerslam '90)

 

Diamond Dallas Page: One of the most entertaining wrestlers with limited ability in the ring. He was so corny in WCW, but his brief stint in the WWF was one of the few bright spots of the whole InVasion fiasco. I wish they had kept him around to manage.

 

Al Snow: Lots of raw talent, but unfortunately, not found the proper character to be a big time player in the profession. He made the most of poor situations in the WWF and was always good for a laugh whenever he was on TV. Plus he had that cool psycho music when he went heel in late 1999.

 

Scott Hall: What a waste. Not a great wrestler by any means, but he had the natural charisma that commanded attention and allowed him to be one of the most recognizable wrestlers in the '90s. His own demons have been his personal glass ceiling.

 

Favorite Matches

 

w/ Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage & Mr. Perfect (Survivor Series '92)

vs. Bret Hart (WWF Title match @ Royal Rumble '93)

vs. Shawn Michaels (IC Title Ladder match @ Wrestlemania X)

vs. Shawn Michaels (IC Title Ladder match @ Summerslam '95)

 

Steve Austin: Tough to say much without sounding like an echo. Simply said, I can see why he was so paranoid about his spot because of his past. Still, he should be grateful he even got his break considering how close he came to being another faceless JTTS casuality of the business.

[Coffey]

[li]Bret "Hitman" Hart ~ I don't know where to begin. He's responsible for so many of my favorite wrestling moments. A lot of them go unmentioned nowadays too. Yeah, people remember and talk about his great matches, like his Owen Hart tribute on Nitro with Benoit or his Wrestlemania matches with HBK, Austin & Owen. I liked all the little things though. His Thunder match with Disco Inferno. I'd never seen the Sharpshooter locked in that precise before. His Wrestlemania match with Roddy Piper was great. I loved the Hart Foundation. I loved when he wore the piece of metal over his chest so that Goldberg knocked himself silly delivering the Spear. What a great wrestler...but an overlooked entertainer as well. I still think the "screwjob" was a work.

 

[/li][li]"The Franchise" Shane Douglas ~ I give Douglas a lot more credit than a lot of other people do. Of course, most of those people, like myself, only know about the business because of shit that we read on-line. Most of the wrestlers, when you hear them shooting or whatnot, all seem to think that Douglas is an asshole and that he burned too many bridges. That maybe so, but I thought he was badass in ECW. He had some decent tag title matches in WCW too. I was never a big fan of his belly-to-belly finisher, but when he started using the Pittsburgh Plunge, I started liking him more. The Triple Threat was one of the reasons why I fell in love with ECW. Ever notice how Douglas always had women around him? In ECW he had Francine, not to mention Tammy by association with Candido. In WCW, at least the second time, he got Torrie Wilson. TNA? Traci. It's not like they were mouthpieces. Douglas was a good talker, even when he couldn't cuss. His XPW run shouldn't have happened.

 

[/li][li]Toshiaki Kawada ~ I've, personally, always liked Misawa more, but Kawada is second. Just above Kobashi and Akiyama. He does grow on you with the more exposure that you get with him though. I could watch him kick poor bastards in the face all day long. I'm not a real big fan of his pinning powerbomb, despite knowing a lot of the backstory and shit with it. It's defintely established, or at least was at one time, but it's still just a pinning powerbomb to this american wrestling fan. I'm not too big into Puro, but Kawada is one of those cats that you just have to seek out. Word out mouth goes a long way, and his name is always dropped.

 

[/li][li]Demoltion ~ Well, they certainly weren't the Fabulous Freebirds. I marked for Demolition when they were heels and had Mr. Fuji as their manager. I quit caring for them after their face turn. To this day I love their entrance music and attire. It just doesn't seem cheesy to me. It seems like they were out of a Mad Max movie. Not the best of workers, or brawlers really, but the gimmick took them a long way in my eyes. Once Crush came on board, all hope was lost. Still, back in the 80's when it was heel Ax & Smash, I thought they were badass. Great finisher.

 

[/li][li]"Diamond" Dallas Page ~ Well, he did drive the pink cadillac at WM6! I never could get into his promos. They came off generic. Calling people "scum" wasn't that big of an insult in 1996. I loved his finisher though. Hell, I don't think you could be a WCW fan and not like the Diamond Cutter. It was the most established move in the company! Page did a good job of that. As far as his matches go, the majority of them were forgettable. I don't really know why he got multiple title reigns, but to be honest, it didn't really bother me. Anyone could lose to the Diamond Cutter. I liked Page the best when he was a babyface that would get beat down the entire match, but could still win by hitting the Cutter out of left field. When he went heel, and all the Triad shit went down, I stopped caring. His run in WWE was a joke, but he did provide me with some comical moments. In TNA, thus far, he hasn't really done anything. It was cool to see him show up, but I know he's not in the best condition anymore. Well, to be honest, he never really was. Great finisher, mediocre talker, hard worker and an average wrestler. Took what limited tools he has/had and made them work.

 

[/li][li]Al Snow ~ Man, he has to be a good guy for as much shit as he's had to take in his career. Surprisingly, most of the shit I've seen with Al Snow wasn't in a wrestling ring at all. Tough Enough, Confidential Cribs, etc. I need to get ahold of his ECW work. I haven't had a lot of exposure to it, despite being a huge ECW fan. Hell, I just got to watch the Sabu shoot yesterday. What I have seen from him in the ring has been...better than average. I heard that he trained Dan Severn back in the day, which at the time I didn't believe. With all the Tough Enough shit that's went down, it certainly makes sense now. My friend Chad actually met him in person at a convention not too long ago. Apparently Al Snow and Virgil/Vincent were both there. They had a wrestling ring set up and people were allowed to get into it. Chad got a picture with Al where he had Chad in a headlock. Then some kid gave another jobber a piledriver in the ring...and Chad, Snow & Virgil all cringed. I love stories like that. Al seems like a nice dude, and I'd like to meet him some day. Maybe shoot the shit with him? I'm sure he has some great stories. Hell, I could listen to Mick Foley talk about/make fun of him all day long. I was never a real big fan of the "Snow Plow" finisher however. I did like his European title run. That shit was hilarious.

 

[/li][li]Scott Hall ~ *SIGH* So many great memories, so many terrible stories. We all know that he has...problems. However, when he was in WWF for the first time, I fucking loved Razor Ramon. At one time, he was my favorite wrestler. I actually didn't recognize him as The Diamond Stud because it'd been so long since I'd seen him. Once he hit his finisher though, I remembered. Hey, there's another thing that Page did! Managed the Stud. When he "invaded" WCW, I almost had a heart attack. That shit was surreal...at least at the time. I definitely marked out. When Nash showed up a week or two later, I don't know how long it was until I watched WWF again. One of the best finishers ever in my eyes. Loved his ladder matches. Loved his catchphrases and mannerisms. It's too bad what he's become. The last time I saw him in TNA, I actually pitied him. You should never pity someone. I guess it was just because I had such fond memories of him.

 

[/li][li]Yuji Nagata ~ Oh man, I love Nagata! All three Nagata Locks are badass. His work in WCW wasn't amazing, but it left an impression on me. Enough so that I went out of my way to watch some of his shit in Japan. When I played Fire Pro Wrestling D for the first time, Nagata was who I picked. I think he's underrated. A lot of people overlook him. I don't know if it's because of underexposure or because when you're comparing japanese wrestlers you have to compare them to greats like Misawa and Liger. I'm a big fan. Nagata Lock III is my current decktop wallpaper.

 

Apparently my backspace key on my keyboard isn't working so hot anymore.

 

[/li][li]Psicosis ~ We did him already, right? Psicosis is my friend Jeremy's favorite wrestler. Imagine his excitement when I told him that Psicosis was coming into WWE. He's not real big into the internet scene, at least wrestling wise, so he doesn't think about things like lack of a push or jobbing to hosses. He was happy. I love Psicosis' Guillotine Legdrop. I think I said this last time, but he's not Bobby Eaton. Still, gotta love his run in WCW. I liked a couple of his matches in NWA:TNA too. He had a fourway match with Jerry Lynn, AJ Styles & Low Ki that was pretty good...even if he was the "jobber" in that match. It'll be cool to see him again. Much like Al Snow, I need to get ahold of his ECW shit.

 

[/li][li]Steve Austin ~ Ya'll have seen his ECW promo where he makes fun of everyone from Dusty Rhodes to Hulk Hogan, right? Oh man, that shit is hilarious! "Thass not fa you." Hollywood Blondes? Gold. WCW TV Champion? Gold. ECW promo's? Gold. "Ringmaster?" Not so gold, but DiBiase was on screen, so it was all good. Fucking Stone Cold though. Jesus. What can be said? That shit was a revolution of the business. Austin Vs. McMahon is probably my favorite feud of all-time. Yeah, it's wrestling and it didn't provide a lot of good matches, but it sure as hell provided entertaining TV. I loved when Austin was driving Bret's ambulance and he beat the slop out of him in the back of it. The Stone Cold Stunner is a great move. A lot better than a stun gun anyway. His match with The Rock at X-7 was great. Hell, he had a ton of great matches. He was so fucking over it was insane! People "WHATed" the National Anthem! People still do What chants every now and then. Stone Cold seemed like a rip-off of The Sandman's gimmick in a way, but it certainly worked. It's who Austin is. He's a redneck that drinks, cusses and raises hell. I miss Austin. It'll be cool to see him at Wrestlemania again this year. I know that his time has passed, so I don't want to see him going over any young talent like he did last time he was on TV. I still think that he should be involved in some role though. A commentator maybe?[/li]