Bret on WOL

[sek69]

 

Are you saying Hogan was as associated with America as Bret with Canada? I'm not sure I agree with that.

 

 

I don't see how you can disagree, Hogan was pushed as All That Is Right With America, single handedly defeating the evil forces that seek to destroy it. It's the only way they could sell the Hulk vs Fat Heel of the Month feuds he was always in. A heel beating up Hogan was sold as a heel destroying America.

 

I will give you that Bret was the first person who's Canadian-hood was made a part of his push.

[Guest Anth]

What he's trying to say is, Bret Hart is regarded as a national hero in Canada. Hogan isn't a national hero in America.

 

I'm not saying this to be rude to Americans or anything, but it is very hard for you guys to understand just how big Hart is in Canada. A year-long poll was held last year by the CBC (the biggest TV network in Canada for over 60 years, run by the federal government), to find the Greatest Canadian. The list was decided by the viewers voting, through phones and e-mail. It was a huge deal, with numerous prime-time TV specials. Bret Hart placed 39th on that list, out of 100 people. That's higher than nearly a half-dozen Prime Ministers.

[sek69]

I get that, but you can't say Hogan wasn't pushed as an All-American hero, if not a more cartoonish one.

 

 

If anything, it's almost like Hogan was the superhero Bret believed the Hitman was.

[Marty]

Look at it this way -- Bret Hart is probably the most famous Canadian athlete. Hockey isn't big outside of Canada, so you can throw out Gretzsky, and Bret was a huge draw internationally for five years in the 90s. There are no wrestlers that have been so closely related to America that have been at Bret's level, and I can't think of a single American wrestler that's ever been a legitimate American hero. Austin, Rock and Hogan were bigger stars, but none of them had their entire character based around their home country.

I pretty much agree with you on everything in this thread except the Gretzky comment. The reason being is Gretzky transcended hockey in the 1980s, and most importantly, in America, once he was traded to the L.A. Kings in 1988. I don't think Bret did the same thing. When he was on top, it was, relatively speaking, a down period for the WWF. What Gretzky did, OTOH, is comparable to Hogan's and Austin's effectiveness during their times on top.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Bret Hart is regarded as a national hero in Canada.  Bret Hart placed 39th on that list, out of 100 people. That's higher than nearly a half-dozen Prime Ministers.

I think that says more about Canada than it does Bret Hart as a person or in what regard Americans hold Hulk Hogan.

 

If Hogan, a simple entertainer in a worked sport, placed that highly on a similar list in this country, I'd have to question our sanity. What makes Hart any more special? And this is coming from the country that voted The Terminator a Governor of one of its states.

[The Thread Killer]

Uhhh...maybe Marty and any other Canadians who might post here can back me up...but Bret Hart is HARDLY considered a National Hero. He's probably the most popular Canadian Wrestler in history, and out west he's very famous. I'd say in Calgary, or even in Alberta he might be a household name...but he's not a national hero.

 

You guys need to understand that Canada and the U.S.A. are totally different in terms of national identity. Canada is very regional. This explains our electoral results. Different regions elect different parties. So somebody who is popular or known in Western Canada might get a "who?" from somebody out on the East Coast.

 

If you walked up to somebody in Toronto and said who is Bret Hart, they'd probably think you said "Brett Hull" wrong. If you said "Paul Henderson" practically everybody would know who he was. Being popular with wrestling fans, and being a National Hero are two totally different things. If Canada has any national heroes, they're probably hockey players.

 

Interesting thread/discussion by the way.

[Loss]

Maybe we take our heroes for granted in America because we have so many of them. You don't hear about many Canadian heroes - therefore, Bret Hart sticks out. It's the same thing as someone from your high school becoming a celebrity.

[Guest CanadianChick]

I'd hardly consider Bret Hart a national hero here. Yes, he's the most famous wrestler, but so what? It's just that we don't have the amount of famous entertainers that Americans have, so they stick out more.

 

I agree with the Thread Killer that Canada is very regional. Hell, BC is right beside Alberta, but we don't regard Bret Hart in such high manner.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Thanks to the caunucks who cleared that up because the whole "National Hero" thing was freakin' me out. I was like, "Is Canada so bad off that they actually consider a WRESTLER a national hero? Wow."

 

And I definitely hope that Loss was being facetious when he said we Americans take our heroes for granted because we have so many. For some reason that just doesn't sound right for a variety of different reasons. I'd be hard pressed to call any of our "celebrities" heroes and I don't think we take our REAL heroes for granted.

[Guest Dazed]

 

It was a sight many fans never thought they would see again, until now. Bret Hart and Vince McMahon met face to face today before shooting began for the upcoming DVD chronicling the Hit Man's career.

 

During shooting, McMahon and Hart both talked about Bret's beginnings, SummerSlam 1992, the historic Owen Hart-Bret Hart rivalry, Stone Cold Steve Austin, the infamous Montreal incident, Bret's jump to WCW and much more.

 

Afterwards, the Hit Man said he was "happy with how everything went today," regarding the Bret Hart-WWE joint production.

 

WWE.com

[Loss]

And I definitely hope that Loss was being facetious when he said we Americans take our heroes for granted because we have so many.  For some reason that just doesn't sound right for a variety of different reasons.  I'd be hard pressed to call any of our "celebrities" heroes and I don't think we take our REAL heroes for granted.

I wasn't being facetious, but I could have been far more clear in what I said.

 

The point I was trying to make was that there are far more famous Americans and Americans with a footprint in history than there are Canadians. So the Canadians who do gain success, fame or notoriety are more remembered because there are fewer of them, "hero" or not. Perhaps the term I should have used was "celebrity", because a hero and a celebrity are obviously two totally different things.

[The Thread Killer]

The whole difference between a Celebrity and Hero point is interesting. I agree that there is, and should be a huge difference. That would be an good topic for discussion elsewhere.

 

I don't mean to speak ill of Bret Hart, either. He seemed to be a very kind and patient man at the Wrestling With Shadows premeire. He has also done an almost incalcuable amount of charity work in Canada. The entire Hart family are indeed legends in the town of Calgary. I don't want to take away from that. I know why Bret was so popular.

 

The thing is with Bret, is that he was never really playing a character. He yelled in his promos, but other than that, what you saw was what you got with him, in or out of character. He was pretty much a straight up wrestler...that's his real name and everything. So, people tended to take him more seriously than somebody could take The Rock, The Undertaker, or Hulk Hogan, because Hart seemed to have an everyman type of personality, whereas those other names come across as larger than life.

 

I am willing to bet that if Bret had jobbed clean to Michaels that night, the fans would have freaked. Canadian fans hate Shawn Michaels, and they hate Earl Hebner. (Amusingly enough...they seem to have forgiven Vince for the most part.) Shawn stuck the Canadian flag up his nose, and humped it on television. He's also said some very unflattering things about the Hart family, (especially Stu) and Canada in general. So if Bret had dropped that strap in Montreal that night...there would have been some serious anger.

 

However...I honestly don't think there would have been a fuss if he had dropped it the following night in Ottawa to somebody else, say The Undertaker or whoever. I know for a fact...because he said it right in front of me...Bret's first choice was to walk down to the ring, and hand the belt over. I honestly think if he had done that, he would have got a ton of "you sold out" heat...Canada or no Canada.

 

The bottom line is this...Bret Hart is probably the most popular Canadian Wrestler in history (I suppose some argument could be made about Whipper Billy Watson back in his day) but at the end of the day, while most Canadian Wrestling fans I know admire him...they don't consider him a "hero." They're proud that he represented Canada with class, and dignity, which is next to impossible to have in the world of Pro Wrestling.

 

When I think of Canadian Heroes, I think of Dr. Frederick Banting who discovered insulin and it's effect on diabetics. I think of Dr. Roberta Bondar. I know that many Canadians admire and respect our veterans from World War II. I don't think it's any big secret that many Canadians have resented the U.S.A. for waiting so long to get involved in WWII, and the fact that it looked like the only reason they did was due to Pearl Harbor. I know it is a point of pride for many Canadians that our country went to fight the Nazi menace much earlier than our friends to the South.

 

If you asked most Canadians who they thought our greatest hero was, I'm betting they would say Terry Fox. Terry Fox is a household name in Canada, and is considered a National Hero for good reason.

 

As I said...and I wasn't kidding...many Canadians feel that Paul Henderson is one of our greatest heroes due to his immortal performance in the 1972 Summit Series. Most Canadians live, breathe, eat, and sleep hockey...and that series and that goal were pretty much the apex of National Pride in Canada. For more info about this, and a summary of what it meant to Canada, CLICK HERE. That should explain how important that moment was to Canada, and why today it is still felt to be one of the defining moments in Canadian History, 33 years later.

 

So a Pro Wrestler who refused to job to Shawn Michaels, while a popular and sympathetic figure is hardly considered a hero. Anybody who says that really doesn't understand the way Bret Hart is viewed by Canadians. He's loved, but in the end, he's just a guy in spandex pretending to beat people up, and even the biggest marks realize that deep down.

[The Thread Killer]

He maintained some semblance of worth there because of the situation, but had he laid down for Michaels clean as a sheet, WCW would have had a hard time promoting him in Canada after that, and one of the reasons Bischoff wanted him at the time was so they could start running shows north of the border with a strong drawing card besides Hogan (which never happened because of poor management). Canadian fans are a slightly different breed. They booed Goldberg for *two years* after the steel plate angle in Toronto. They don't forget.

I meant to mention, that is an excellent point, Charles. I honestly think that in terms of Bret's regaining his popularity with American fans, and even with Canadian fans, Vince did Bret a HUGE favor. Make no mistake about it...WCW was NOT popular up here...not even close...ever. When both were running on TSN, even when RAW was getting killed in the ratings down there, it was beating Nitro in Canada. (Granted...Nitro had a shit time slot...but still.) If Bret had simply jobbed, or handed over the title to whoever, and then gone to WCW, he would have had to deal with a huge backlash from many die hard WWF fans who hated WCW.

 

Keep in mind, many of the fans who filled the Silverdome for WMIII were from the province of Ontario. We're very close to Detroit, when you look at it. Also, don't forget the previous record holder, "The Big Event" in 1986, where Hogan fought Orndorff for the first time after the heel turn. That was in Toronto, and it drew like 62,000 fans. Canadians love them their WWF/E.

[Guest Anth]

I admit that national hero may be too strong to describe Bret in Canada. I'll explain it this way. Hulk Hogan in America is viewed as a pop culture icon, a sort of real-life superhero as most wrestlers are, but he took it to the max. Hart really isn't seen as a superhero, he's seen as an athlete (or entertainer) who represented Canada, and Canadians respect him for that. So no, he's not a hero, but he's respected highly in Canada.

 

And yes, if Shawn had won the title clean in Montreal, the fans would've shit all over it.

[Guest Some Guy]

I am willing to bet that if Bret had jobbed clean to Michaels that night, the fans would have freaked.  Canadian fans hate Shawn Michaels, and they hate Earl Hebner.

I don't really understand why.

EDIT: Shawn was a pretty shitty person at the time, however he was playing a character (probably in the same sense that Bret was). Hebner is a putz, who flat out lied to Bret's face and then tried to steal from his very loyal (to him) employer. I can understand the Hebner hate.

 

(Amusingly enough...they seem to have forgiven Vince for the most part.)

The man who actually made the decision and forced it to happen...

 

Shawn stuck the Canadian flag up his nose, and humped it on television.? He's also said some very unflattering things about the Hart family, (especially Stu) and Canada in general.

While Bret didn't desecrate the American flag, he did say a ton of shit about America. He also called Shawn a fag multiple times, which isn't true, as far as I know. Bret has admitted to starting the whole "Shawn is gay" deal with his "I'll be in the WWF forever" speech in late 96. He then apologized to Shawn, who said it was cool.

 

So if Bret had dropped that strap in Montreal that night...there would have been some serious anger.

Shawn was an incredible heel at that point and Bret an incredible face.

 

Bret's first choice was to walk down to the ring, and hand the belt over.? I honestly think if he had done that, he would have got a ton of "you sold out" heat...Canada or no Canada.

So he would have pulled "an HBK" and not dropped the belt in the ring.

 

I dont mean to be so hard on Bret, because I do understand his reasoning and if I were in his position I probably would have done the same thing. However, I would have been honest and said, "This pilled up, prima donna motherfucker refused to lose to me and I won't lose to him, period." Canada had very little to do with it and made him sound foolish and like a mark.

 

Either way, what did Bret say about the book deal?