Benoit or Eddy

[Resident Evil]

Benoit's best matches in '93 were the Samurai match which was brilliant, the Armstrong match, the Guerrero handheld bout and the WCW Scorpio handheld bout where they never even went to some of their finishing stuff. The Regal handheld is probably up there but I haven't seen it and I imagine the Scorpio New Japan Classics match was stellar. I can't wait for that one to show up some day.

 

Than there were the 2 March 93 tags with Malenko against Lyger and Samurai which were rock and rolling but unfortunately just didn't get enough time. Same with the Finlay handheld New Japan match.

 

HIs other standouts were the Lyger handheld matches from Australia, the Johnny B. Badd match from the TV title tourney and of course the tag tourney bouts where he and Lyger teamed.

 

94? Well he had his "best" match that year against Sasuke, but he certainly didn't have a better year than the AJPW players or in my mind Bret Hart. If I'm not mistaken Takada had a strong year that year also. And once again this is pretending Lucha and Joshi don't exist. In 95 I suppose you could start to make a cogent argument for Benoit, but he's still got to deal with the usual suspects in Japan, plus Taue who had a very strong year that year.

 

 

I'd agree with this. I also wonder how Benoit compares to Owen in '94.

 

 

WP -- Actually 94 might be Benoit's best year preformance wise and even better than 95 or 96. Of course he was mostly the heel in these matches and doing a good amount of leading. Preformances that Benoit shined in were:

 

Benoit vs Ohtani 2/16/94 HH New Japan -- Great

 

Benoit vs Sabu Handheld 2/19/94 -- The Sabu matches are some of the best examples of just how good Benoit was. Sabu said it himself. He didn't have to do any crazy stunts with Benoit as Benoit would just wrestle and the crowd would eat up what they're doing

 

Benoit/Lyger vs Steiners 4/4/94

 

Benoit vs Sasuke 4/16/94 J Cup which is now getting underrated

 

Benoit vs Ohtani BOSJ tourney 5/26/94 -- This is a "hidden" gem and is one of the best examples of how to put over a younger talent, make him look strong and keep your own credibility high. Benoit gives Ohtani offence and makes him a threat but the match never allows you to think that Benoit still isn't the man. Awesome match and it's hard to top Benoit's preformance here.

 

Benoit vs Malenko 6/1/94 HH -- Some may think Benoit doesn't sell the leg enough here but the actual structure of this match is terrific

 

Benoit vs Sabu Handheld 8/5/94 -- Stellar match and preformance here by Benoit. Sabu's best matches are no coincidence against Benoit. (Al Snow vs Sabu is fun too)

 

Benoit vs Al Snow NWA handheld 8/7/94 -- This is why I love wrestling. Like deathvalley said a million, billion stars. Benoit is a workrate machine here and he and Snow wrestle their hearts out for 20 minutes in front of almost nobody. Different than their ECW match. This one wets the appetite for more Snow vs Benoit. I'm telling everybody here to GET THIS MATCH.

 

Benoit/Norton vs Steiners 9/23/94

 

Benoit vs Honaga 9/27/94 -- I think this is the most overlooked match of Beniot's career. Multi Counters galore and the work around the dragon suplex is absolutely brilliant. They do a nice story in this bout as well where Honga tries all sorts of different strageties to beat Benoit. Again, some might think Benoit doesn't sell the leg enough but there's no denying this match

 

Benoit/Ohtani vs Sasuke Tiger -- Both matches. Do I really have to say anything about these

 

Benoit vs Scorpio 11/9/94 -- Perfect wrestling.

 

 

I don't know man, That's tough to beat and that's just the stellar preformances. If 11/25/94 shows up it's just going to further promote Benoit's case.

[goodhelmet]

Benoit/Ohtani vs Sasuke Tiger

I don't think you can give credit to Benoit for these matches without also giving vcredit to Eddie who was in the match also. However, with that list of matches, Imay have to shoot Lynch an email and see if he can put this comp together so I can see how Benoit's stuff listed here compares to Eddie's AAA run.

[Resident Evil]

oh yeah of course eddie gets credit too

[Loss]

About the Benoit/Otani v Sasuke/BT matches ...

 

In Benoit's defense, I think he was the glue that held both of those together. Guerrero was great, but Benoit was on another level in these matches. All the spots were pretty much called by him, as was obvious watching, and it was his bumping that kept the pace what it was. Eddy was filling a role, and doing a good job, but Benoit was the one directing traffic.

[Loss]

Now, for the rest of what I wanted to say here ...

 

2) I think Lesnar actually isn't/wasn't that far from Vader like heights. He overbumped sometimes which was detrimential to his charactor but it was in the spirit of working hard which is a nice touch for a guy that was protected and pushed to the moon by the company. Was he capable of doing the various things Vader did in his career? I think he actually was, but he was never able to prove it because of the WWE constraints and the fact that he gave up. Lesnar had the total package as he was capable and secure in pretty much any situation in the ring with any opponent. He was adapatble in a way that Vader didn't real show in U.S. rings, though that's not really the fault of Vader. Lesnar's best work doesn't really compare with Vader's and his peak doesn't match Vader's, but I think he would have gotten better and if he does come back and work hard I fully expect him to be one of the best workers who ever lived.

Brock had all the raw potential in the world. He's a guy that would already be a world class worker if the territory system still existed. In fact, if WWE wasn't trying to cockblock him working Japan, he'd probably be there right now improving with every outing. I don't know that Lesnar would have ever reached Vader's level no matter how long he stuck around though, just because we're in a monopoly era and the ability to travel and learn different styles is no longer there. Vader had a style that was kind of a melting pot of things he picked up working everywhere. I think Lesnar was more likely to become a worker on the level of The Rock - probably surpassing him quite clearly - than Vader.

 

3) I'm in the Eddy camp here. TY over at a1 has pointed out that a guy like Eddy is doing things a higher level of dificultly than most guys who are expected to work both up and down (with the heavies and with the juniors). I don't think Benoit mastered that in the same way that Eddy did, though to be fair, Benoit was never fully tested by the bookers.

Right. I can't think of a single guy who's booked Benoit who's actually put any thought into the direction he's taking other than, "Hey, we need a great match in this slot, so let's put Benoit against (Wrestler X)" or "Hey, we need to get this guy over and Benoit will give him a good match, so let's do it." That's a shame, because even his 2004 title run didn't really fully feature his strengths, but then again, Benoit is to blame for part of that too. I liked the match he had with Kane, but I wish he would have approached Kane differently than Shawn Michaels and Michaels differently from HHH. I also think there were a lot of obvious matches (Jericho and Edge mainly) that they didn't run while he was champ and should have. I would have also liked to have seen a Benoit/Taijiri match with Benoit as champ at some point on RAW. Eddy got those opportunities and Benoit really didn't.

 

Eddy is more offensively creative and tends to sneak in things in his matches nowadays whereas Benoit is much more reliant on the same old standard moves, that are poorly executed at this point. He still sells better than anyone in the company, but that doesn't make him better than Eddy. I prefer Eddy's best matches, I think he has more memorable moments in the ring, and I generally think he conveys charactor better than most other guys in the business and far better than Benoit. Bottom line I think Eddy is better.

I can't argue with this.

 

4) In 96 Benoit was better than Eddy and I don't think it was THAT close. Benoit had a hell of a year that year, showcasing his moveset, his excellent execution, and his versatility. The guy had two very believable and memorable brawls with Kevin Sullivan, then shifts into working cruisers, than shifts into tag matches, et. He was all over the place and in a good way. He never really hit that stride again and that's partially because of booking. Eddy had a good year, but was stuck doing mostly "fun stuff" and without any direction from the book he really wasn't capable of breaking out in a way that would really put him over the top in a head to head with Benoit that year.

Thinking about it more, I do put Benoit ahead of Eddy for 1996. HOWEVER, Eddy had a fantastic year in his own right. Benoit got more opportunity in WCW than Eddy did, and one thing that's consistent about '96 is that almost all of their best matches were against each other. There are Benoit/Guerrero matches that are mostly Benoit's match (06/96, 11/96), but in the same token, they're matches he could not have had against anyone else with the same effect. I think Guerrero's matches with guys like Ric Flair (NOT at Hog Wild '96) and Psicosis are not terribly below Benoit's matches with Sullivan.

[Guest Benjie]

I don't think there's much of a need to go through each year to see who's better because everyone has appeared to have done it, and I don't think it's the best ways to say who's better. As far as talent is concerned, Eddy Guerrero is one of the best wrestling products to have come out of North America. I'd much rather much watch him than Benoit in the ring. This isn't to say Benoit isn't one of the most talented, because as evident in the past the man has tremendous skills. I just know that if I'm watching Eddy i'm going to be most likely entertained. That factor makes Eddy better than Benoit more so than how many great matches in each year both have had.

 

I agree. Eddy has been disappointing. All his matches lately, while ranging from okay to good, has yet to realize the full potential, both for his character and his ability.

I have to disagree. Especially on the character part. Eddie is easily the best talent on WWE television if you take character representation into account. He's also been able to incorparate it into his matches. His matches with Rey on SmackDown! and at the last PPV clearly shows this, and so did his match with Benoit a few weeks back.

 

 

I'm not really limiting my opinion to 2004-2005. I was speaking of their WWE careers. Benoit's been in a lot of classics while Eddy was either putting on good matches or forgotten gems, but no classics.

Well between 2000-01, Benoit was booked much better than how Eddy was booked so it would be unfair to judge. I'd still say Benoit was better in that period though, but when you're booked to be Chyna's sidekick there isn't much you can do. Since 2002 where Eddy they both returned, they've recieved similar opportunities and they have always been on a similar level until recently where I agree with the sentiments that Benoit has got lazy. Back in 2003 Benoit was booked the same as he's being booked now, yet he was still inventive and producing matches of quality. His series against A-Train was really good with each playing off of each other.

 

I've always prefered Eddie though since 2002. And as of late I've found him and Rey to be the company's two best.

[Slasher]

I meant that Eddy has shown he could be the ultimate rudo. Lately he's reduced to doing custody angles. That's not really realizing your character's potential.

[Guest DylanWaco]

I don't really know that I think Benoit has gotten lazy. Guys who are lazy generally don't work at the physical pace Benoit works at, nor do they sell as well as Benoit. Benoit's problem is that he's developed a formula a la Flair. Alot of that was encouraged by the WWE brass, who are marks for the whole signature spot thing, but Benoit has gotten pretty ridiculous about it now. Everyone used to really unload on RVD for doing the whole body shake sell after he hit the Five Star. Benoit does the same god damn thing with his headbutt everytime and people rarely complain. Every match Benoit is in we get the continued degradation of the previously "serious" german suplex which is not only shamefully overused but is god awfully executed at this point. I've seen people shit on Angle for this sort of thing, but Benoit generally gets more passes than Angle. Of course we also will get the overused chops, the terribly executed sharpshooter often makes an appearance, and the often badly applied crossface. When he's feeling it we might get a nice backbreaker or somehting, but we never get a top rope belly to back anymore, let alone one of his other big moves from the past.

 

Now granted the WWE style limits ALOT of that, but that still doesn't excuse the formula that Benoit has sunk into and that's one of the main reasons that modern Eddy is easily better than modern Benoit in my view. Eddy will always try to whip up something fresh and almost always executes things well. To anyone who says that Jericho's Walls and Benoit's Sharpshooter "have to be executed that way" to appease the WWE, I say check out Eddy's Texas Cloverleaf and come up with an excuse for Benoit and Jericho that is at least marginally believable.

[Guest DylanWaco]

On Benoit/Scorp v. Windham/Scorp:

 

First of all Scorpio is insanely underrated by some people. He's a relatively easy target for dismisal because he's often thought of as a "spot" guy, but that ignores the bigger picture of what he was doing in his prime. Other than Scott Steiner there probably hasn't been another "spot" guy in history who was as physically impressive and awe inspiring as Scorp was. Plus unlike other "spot" workers Scorp new how to build a match, sold well, and worked the crowd in very well often teasing his big spots and delivery something else building to the perfect moments for the really fantastic shit. So really having a good to great match with Scorp isn't very hard or very impressive since he carried alot of choads and lazy bastards to good and even great matches.

 

Anyhow, I for one think Scorp/Benoit is a very fun match, with some nice spots and some really good moments. But I can't even compare it to Windham/Scorp. Windham/Scorp was one of the better WCW matches of the 90's in my view. By that I mean top twenty-five or so. It ages really well because it's built around Windham as badass and Scorp as the guy just fighting to hang in there. In some ways it's a glorfied squash, but highly glorified it is. It's proof of Windham excellign in an area where I don't really think Benoit could have at that point..or really ever to be honest (which is one of the reasons I rate Benoit a bit lower than most). The Joe/Dutt ppv match sorta reminded me of Windham/Scorp in how it was set up, but I don't relaly think that's a fair comparison because even early 90's Barry is better than Joe (that's not a knock on Joe FWIW) and Scorp was way better than Dutt could ever hope to be. So yeah I think Windham/Scorp is a good bit better.

 

On Benoit v. Owen in 94:

 

Owen was a tremendously gifted pure athlete. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but at his pure core I doubt anyone has ever been as good as Owen. He was so fluid, so versatile, so quick, just so damn good, so damn young. Then he got hurt and he never maximized his talents. In 94 he was still a very good to great worker, but I don't know that I think he was better than Benoit. Benoit was really starting to hit stride with his versatility in the ring that year and Owen was coming down from a high in a way. Owen had some excellent matches and moments that year, but I'm not sure he had more than Benoit. It's worth thinking about.

 

 

On Benoit's 96:

 

In my mind Benoit was better that year than Eddy and Austin that year, though Austin had matches with Savio that also ought to be tossed into the pot of really good shit he did that year.. I'm not sure that I think he was better than Scorpio who actually had a somewhat similar year in ECW which was a much less worker friendly enviornment, but saw Scorp carry a few people to their best matches in the history of the company (Scorpio, Whipwreck, Sabu and Douglas..it should be noted that I have an awful lot of ECW handhelds ). Scorpio's match with Douglas at A Matter of Respect was better than anything I remember Benoit doing that year, but Benoit probably had more good matches. Malenko and Misterio had a huge body of good matches that year and were both at their best at that point. I don't think Benoit was better than either of them. Juvi was hit or miss in the States but allegedly was outstanding in Mexico. I have seen a couple of his matches from Mexico that year and he really was tremendous. I flip flp on Michaels. Sometimes I watch his 96 stuff and think it's good but not great. Then I'll watch it a few months later and really go markshit for it. He was off the charts at drawing the crowd in that year and it often times made up for his failings in the ring, particularly in regards to selling. I can't in good conscience say that I found Benoit to be clearly better or worse than Benoit.

 

Actually that was really my point with listing those guys. 96 was a career year for alot of people in the States. I think it would be totally reasonable for someone to say that Benoit was the best worker in the States that year even though I don't agree with it. On the other hand I think it would be totally reasoable for someone to say that Benoit was the six or seventh best worker in the country that year though I wouldn't agree with that either. So many people had a great year that year in this country..and that's forgetting Japan where you had the greatest match of all time culminating the AJPW year (a match that by itself is enough to push Misawa and Kawada above Benoit), Juvi who by all accounts had an off the charts year south of the border, the rest of the lucha scene, the Joshi scene (which had a solid resurgance that year) and Ultimo, Liger and Otani (who I had shamefully forgotten about despite the fact that he was the best worker on the planet that year). There was so much great wrestling going on that year, that it would take a pretty huge stretch to get Benoit into a worldwide top five.

 

On Benoit in 98:

 

I had totally forgotten he was out for so long. He still had some very good matches that year, and AJPW was done, but maybe it's not enough for a top five rating.

 

On Brock, The Rock and Vader:

 

Brock was already a better worker than The Rock when he left the company and I'm not one of the net hipsters who thinks The Rock "sucked" because he didn't have enough MOVES! Lesnar was alot more versatile in the ring than The Rock, didn't have some of the gimmick related hinderances and actually had a better understanding of how to build a match. Both guys did have a penchant to overbump though

 

As for the Vader comparison, Vader picked up alot running around the globe, but Brock was a legit amateur star which in my view gives him a bit of a headstart on Vader as far as learning new tricks. There's no doubt that a Japanese run would greatly benefit Brock as a worker, but not in the same way that it benefited Vader, because to be frank Puro is WAY down from what it was when Vader was learning the ropes. Lesnar had as many or more physical tools than Vader and was already looking excellent against a variety of opponents. I have no doubt this would have (and hopefully will) continue.