Charlotte, Natalya and the presentation of women in WWE

[Loss]

I finally had a chance to check out the match, which I thought was very good. More than that though, I was a fan of the overall presentation of the match, that it was something presented credibly with good announcing, built slowly with matwork to start and was contested over a championship that people cared about.

 

Dave kind of walked through the idea of at the very least separating a few of the better working women from the pack in the latest WON, maybe as something separate from the Divas label. US wrestling has never attempted to push women on equal footing, but he pointed to the success of Ronda Rousey and made the action hero analogy that I thought was interesting and worth discussion at the very least. There aren't a lot of women that post here, so it's possible this is the wrong crowd to really ask this question of, but I do wonder if WWE has something special on their hands that could take off. They may not, but I do think it's worth experimenting with the idea of pushing at least one or two women as actual WWE superstars instead of divas, especially since the business model of WWE now should on paper mean that they can take more creative risks than ever. I'm not thinking of another character like Chyna where women wrestle men as much as I am thinking that trying to get over a women's feud as a serious upper card feud is a risk worth taking. Even if it's not something that would sustain, they may have the right talent mix right now to do it in the short term.

 

There's no historical precedent for it, so it's hard to say if it would work or wouldn't. But on the strength of that match, I see no harm in trying.

[Matt D]

I don't think it could ever survive Vince shouting in announcers' ears.

[Russellmania]

Instead of having a splinter division with the "real" women wrestlers, why don't they just treat them all like "real" wrestlers? And then the ones who are too shitty to fill that role should be either fired or used as valets.

[Loss]

That idea is great, but can that be done overnight? How many of the current crop are good enough workers to have a strong 15-minute+ match? I think it would have to be a process.

[BillThompson]

The only ones on the present roster I think are actual workers are Natalya, Emma, Paige, AJ, and Alicia Fox. Charlotte, Sasha Banks, and Bailey all look to have the goods in NXT. Alexa Bliss and a few others also look to/have been said to have potential. I think with that base great things can happen.The question is if they are willing to run with those women and accept that Nikki Bella is just a valet, and sadly I don't see that happening.

[rovert]

The only ones on the present roster I think are actual workers are Natalya, Emma, Paige, AJ, and Alicia Fox. Charlotte, Sasha Banks, and Bailey all look to have the goods in NXT. Alexa Bliss and a few others also look to/have been said to have potential. I think with that base great things can happen.The question is if they are willing to run with those women and accept that Nikki Bella is just a valet, and sadly I don't see that happening.

 

I don't see it happening either the McMahon side of the family has only known Moolah's version of Women's Wrestling and descendents of it.

That idea is great, but can that be done overnight? How many of the current crop are good enough workers to have a strong 15-minute+ match? I think it would have to be a process.

Well Becky Lynch debuts the 26th June airing of NXT who certainly will help. She needs to develop her WWE legs but she is probably the best worker they have. Hard to talk about her without a lengthy biography. But she was legit candidate for the best "Wrestler at the Youngest Age" debate. I remember Rob Naylor comparing her to Terry Gordy! I wouldn't go that far but she really ticked all the boxes in terms of the maturity of her ring work, getting over with the crowd. Within two years in Wrestling she travelled from Ireland to the UK, Canada, USA, Japan and mainland Europe based on this crazy amount of word of mouth. She suffered a head injury in Germany and took 6 or years to decide what to do, go to college etc. She arrived in NXT last July. She has been getting strong reviews on NXT live events.

What people point to as her best match was a 30 minute 2/3 falls match with Daizee when she was 19 in SHIMMER which was going to setup the first ever 60 minute Iron Woman match. Dave Prazak (the promoter) said it was "probably the best women's match [that he'd] seen on U.S. soil in years, if not ever."

The match got strong notices elsewhere. I've never seen a review below ****:

Most of the undercard was hovering around the average mark, but the last two matches warrant a purchase. The 2/3 falls match was the best wrestling women's match I've seen since the fall of Japanese women's wrestling. Definitely try to watch that match at least once.

 

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/video_reviews/67778/Dark-Pegasus-Video-Review:-SHIMMER-Vol.-5.htm#OO7ErVW2pLBUHB1o.99

 

 

There’s far too much to detail but the smoothness and innovation is to be commended.

 

http://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/DVDs_-_VGames_-_Books_25/article_47879.shtml#.U5YhHvldW_h

 

At the time she was pushed on par with NXT trainer Sara Del Ray. Pre-WWE Bailey, Emma and Paige respectively referenced Becky was an inspiration/favourite wrestler which is funny given how things played out.

[funkdoc]

there needs to be a large cultural change within WWE if they really want to get women over. for starters, the typical "first name only" presentation is tacky as hell and needs to be dropped ASAP.

 

historically, a lot of the problem has been the demographic involved with WWF/E's creative team. it's largely tended to be ex-wrestlers or real-life Comic Book Guys, and those aren't exactly the best groups to write multi-dimensional female characters. the most prominent creative figure who didn't fit either of those categories was Russo, and he treated women worse than anyone in his booking - remember the "abuse of women" tally in El-P's thread?

 

i think to really do a serious women's division properly, you would need more women in creative. the best you could realistically do with the current bunch are "male characters with boobs", which is a phenomenon that's been widely criticized in other forms of entertainment; the Charlotte vs. Natalya match could arguably fit into this category, though you could also say that's not really a context that needs more women-specific issues. thanks to history and our existing power structures, the real life experiences of men & women tend to be vastly different, and you should take this into account if you want to create female characters who will resonate with women.

 

here's an article that touches on some of what i mean here: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/ . there are other issues not really touched upon there, but this is well worth reading to understand some of the common pitfalls male writers fall into.

Edited June 10, 2014 by funkdoc

[tholzerman]

That idea is great, but can that be done overnight? How many of the current crop are good enough workers to have a strong 15-minute+ match? I think it would have to be a process.

Yes, it can. Give characters who have capacity for charismatic speech time, and let the workers wrestle. AJ Lee (if she ever comes back) is a tremendous character who actually got over. Paige, Emma, Nattie, Charlotte, Bayley, Sasha Banks, and Naomi can work. Alicia Fox can do both. Kharma was a phenomenon when she was on the roster. Getting women over isn't rocket science. Fans want to cheer them. It's the sexist cacophony from the announcers and the limiting narrative that keep women behind.

[The Man in Blak]

If there's ever a time to really push a legitimate Women's division, it's now: they have a gaping hole in the midcard, they have a wealth of talent between both WWE and NXT, they've got two shows that have gradually built up and trained an audience for women wrestlers (Total Divas and NXT). If they're not already building to this sort of play, then what are they doing?

 

If now's not the time, then it never will be, because the logistical excuses -- "how do we fit in TV time for a whole division," "why are we paying and building talent that can't ascend to and supplement our uppercard" -- are never going away.

 

WCW managed to find a way to build and cultivate a Cruiserweight division that was virtually on its own and still, miraculously, over for a long time. WWE should look to their Cruiserweight approach, dig through all those Nitros through '96-97, and take some notes. The Women's division doesn't have a built-in purpose and slot on each card as the opening "crowd priming" match, but it can certainly be an attraction in itself.

 

The long-term benefits of building a broader and more inclusive audience should be self-evident to a publicly traded company like WWE, I'd think.

[JaymeFuture]

WWE's three hour Raw format would work so much better if there was more variety in the product itself. The only variety they give it is stupid comedy with Sandow.

 

Women's wrestling and Cruiserweight wrestling (they have Neville, Zayn, Kidd, Kalisto, KENTA, Devitt, and Breeze or Maddox as American Heel a la Jericho) would shake things up. The problem is the conditioning issue.

 

My roommate is a massive NXT fan and keeps harping on about the women. And every time I counter with the same thing I'll say here - they've done such a good job of scorching the earth with the Divas, of telling people not to care, the match is 3 minutes and it doesn't matter, that a singular isolated incident isn't enough. Paige came off like a star winning the title from AJ Lee the day after Mania. Last night nobody could have given a fuck less about her. Why this is a problem is that WWE is rarely ever consistent with ANYTHING, excluding the booking of the top three or four guys.

 

Since it's going to take a massive shift in philosophy that is consistent for a long time, and then maybe the masses will accept it, means that WWE just won't make the effort.