Contemporary lucha

[pol]

Am I missing a thread for this? If not, there really should be one so here it is. Mostly I just want an outlet to talk about cool indie lucha finds

 

What's exciting y'all in lucha this year? CMLL seems to have hit a rough spot after a really pretty stellar in-ring 2014. This year's En Busca might be even more disappointing than this years G1 is shaping up to be. The Dragon Lee/Kamaitachi feud is one of few bright spots. On the other hand from what I've seen the indies, especially CaraLucha and Chilanga Mask, seem to be tearing it up.

[pol]

 

I really enjoyed this. Pagano, as best I can gather, is a Mexican garbage indies superstar. He kinda sucks but he has a Sabu-esque sloppy indie brawler/spot monkey vibe that, combined with his embarrassing Juggalo look, comes off as pleasantly nostalgic in 2015. He hits the worst looking ACH/Mascara Dorada step-up tope con giro I've ever seen and it's kind of awesome. Rush is Rush and almost always great. Just a nice short brawl.

[pol]

 

En Busca finalists + coaches trios. Shock of shocks, it's not as good as last year's, but it's still a good match, especially the segunda and tercera. I question the wisdom of using an En Busca spotlight match to put over Negro Casas, but it's CMLL, whatever. Unusually raucous crowd for an Arena Mexico show, what's the deal with that?

[kingliam]

Am I missing a thread for this? If not, there really should be one so here it is. Mostly I just want an outlet to talk about cool indie lucha finds

 

What's exciting y'all in lucha this year? CMLL seems to have hit a rough spot after a really pretty stellar in-ring 2014. This year's En Busca might be even more disappointing than this years G1 is shaping up to be. The Dragon Lee/Kamaitachi feud is one of few bright spots. On the other hand from what I've seen the indies, especially CaraLucha and Chilanga Mask, seem to be tearing it up.

 

What's the best way of keeping up with the Indie stuff, such as the CaraLucha and Chilanga Mask stuff?

[Poneglyph]

You can buy the matches from Black Terry Jr. (@BLACKTERRY), but some of then also get uploaded to Youtube.

 

This one has a couple of matches from the lastest Chilanga Mask show: https://www.youtube.com/user/amolaluchalibre

 

These upload some of the main CaraLucha matches: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClDOKmCSFva3mEd92UsZUJg/videos, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZxIwU5rEKIgT8GuqVudzpg/videos

 

Also, +Lucha just uploaded Satánico vs. Blue Panther

 

They go all out trading holds for fifteen minutes. It's not just a maestros exhibition, there is a lot of struggle and fighting for positions. I loved the way Satánico put a Fujiwara armbar on Blue Panther, sticking his elbow on Panther's back. The finish may feel like a cop out, but I really liked Satánico being unable to avoid the temptation of going for a cheap win.

[kingliam]

You can buy the matches from Black Terry Jr. (@BLACKTERRY), but some of then also get uploaded to Youtube.

 

Assuming I just message him?

 

Thanks for all the other information.

[kingliam]

What CaraLucha matches (either from this year, or I could go further back if there is anything worthwhile) are worth checking out? Have a small list, but just wondering if I overlooked anything.

[stomperspc]

What CaraLucha matches (either from this year, or I could go further back if there is anything worthwhile) are worth checking out? Have a small list, but just wondering if I overlooked anything.

 

From this year, all of these are worth watching. I bolded the matches I thought are very good:

 

* Super Fly, Drago & Carta Brava Jr. vs. Fly Star, Rayo Star & Guerrero Mixtico Jr. (01/01)

* Hechicero, Magnifico I & Ultimo Guerrero vs. Negro Navarro, Trauma I & Trauma II (01/31)

* La Resistencia (Kilvan, Rey Lobo Jr., Shadow & Yoruba) vs. Los Tortugas Ninja (Leo, Mike, Rafy & Teelo) (03/07)

* Eterno, Trauma I & Trauma II vs. La Mascara, La Sombra & Rush (03/29)

* Leo vs. Mike vs. Rafy (05/02)

* Titan & Volador Jr. vs. Bestia 666 & Flamita (05/30)

* Felino vs. Guerrero Mixtico Jr. (07/11)

* Hombre Bala Jr. vs. Leo (07/25)

* Satanico vs. Blue Panther (07/25)

 

From 2014, the Hechicero/Navarro matches (the tag and singles) from December are pretty good.

[kingliam]

Having read the Cross Arm Breaker guides, I've got a question - what are common tropes (for lack of a better way of putting it) of a 'maestro match' in Mexico?

 

I gathered it involved one (or more) luchadors of an advanced age, and it seemed to be suggested that it entailed more mat work/submissions than maybe an ordinary lucha style match - anything else? Or am I wrong about the two I have thrown out?

 

Cheers

[Tim Cooke]

Maestro matches are generally wrestled technico vs. technico with submission skill being emphasized over technico vs. rudo or flying. It's very free flowing in that the transitions are from submission to submission. The only place I've seen this done other than maestro matches and where it was not exhibition style, would be the Destroyer vs. Mil Mascaras 7/74 AJPW match. But like most wrestling, there isn't a formula that goes 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 that everyone follows. Solar and Negro Navarro work submission to submission with some stand offs. The recent Blue Panther vs. Satanico incorporated a lot more of the traditional lucha transitions in between the mat work (rolling bumps from irish whips and arm drags).

[ohtani's jacket]

Having read the Cross Arm Breaker guides, I've got a question - what are common tropes (for lack of a better way of putting it) of a 'maestro match' in Mexico?

 

I gathered it involved one (or more) luchadors of an advanced age, and it seemed to be suggested that it entailed more mat work/submissions than maybe an ordinary lucha style match - anything else? Or am I wrong about the two I have thrown out?

 

Cheers

 

Not really. I forget who coined the term. Perhaps Phil Schneider? A maestro in lucha (as best I can tell) either refers to a trainer or a guy with a lot of experience and technical expertise. The way we use the term is a vet who works an older, often mat based style of lucha that is rarely seen in the contemporary product. It tends to have an old-school feel to it even though it's far more exhibition-y than old-school lucha libre and is marked by slow or poor execution that is offset by the workers having the right idea or trying to work lucha the classic way. The other clear indicator is that it happens on the indy circuit and is usually handheld footage.

[BillThompson]

 

Having read the Cross Arm Breaker guides, I've got a question - what are common tropes (for lack of a better way of putting it) of a 'maestro match' in Mexico?

 

I gathered it involved one (or more) luchadors of an advanced age, and it seemed to be suggested that it entailed more mat work/submissions than maybe an ordinary lucha style match - anything else? Or am I wrong about the two I have thrown out?

 

Cheers

 

is marked by slow or poor execution that is offset by the workers having the right idea or trying to work lucha the classic way.

 

 

Is this a commonly held view, or just one that you hold? Because I watch a lot of maestro stuff and that's usually not my takeaway, or the takeaway from most others I know who are watching the same matches.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know if it's a commonly held view. It's my personal opinion. The execution is maestro matches is often poor or slow and the matches generally aren't structured well.

[BillThompson]

Well, as I said, I disagree with that take and very rarely find it to be the case.

[pol]

I like mat-based lucha but I struggle with the maestros stuff. Just far too cooperative-looking a lot of the time.

[ohtani's jacket]

I like the maestros stuff, but they do things at about a quarter of the speed they used to. The exception was Navarro, but even he's ten years on from when he first changed his style.

 

EDIT: Loving your new avatar, btw.

[jushin muta liger]

I like mat-based lucha but I struggle with the maestros stuff. Just far too cooperative-looking a lot of the time.

I think that is the only thing blocking me from falling in love with Lucha. I've been watching a lot more Lucha than I've had in years and the mat based Lucha is something I have a hard time with because you can see them feeding limbs to each other from a mile away.

[Quentin Skinner]

Angel de Oro vs Polvora http://youtu.be/6cketxjc7P4

 

Finally got around to watching this and it's probably one of my personal favorite lucha matches this year

[Tim Cooke]

Chilanga Mask show from this past weekend looks like it may have four legit good to great matches. Watching those tonight.

[kingliam]

Chilanga Mask show from this past weekend looks like it may have four legit good to great matches. Watching those tonight.

Those online or from Black Terry Jr.?

[Matt D]

 

Chilanga Mask show from this past weekend looks like it may have four legit good to great matches. Watching those tonight.

Those online or from Black Terry Jr.?

 

i think they're supposed to go up for free on Sunday.

[stomperspc]

Virus vs. Dr. Cerebro and Caifan/Avisman vs. Hechicero/UG are both MOTYC's. Watched the top four matches (those two plus Maya vs. Maya and Blue Panther vs. Trauma II) and those four alone make it one of the best cards of the year anywhere.

[pol]

 

I watched the whole show. It was real fun, I don't know if I'd go SOTYC though. Will post more thoughts later.

[pol]

I don't really have anything to say about the multimans and the women's match other than to say they were fine for what they were (sloppy indyriffic clusterfucks) and I probably would have liked all of them more if they had each been like 25% shorter.

 

Virus vs. Dr. Cerebro

 

The work here was absolutely top class, but it felt like the first two falls of a great match that was missing a third fall. Part of the problem is that the maestros style of matwork, while often highly aesthetic, typically lacks drama. I think you need a sense of escalation and long periods of control with notable transitions to create drama in wrestling, and this style of matwork typically has neither. As far as primera matwork goes, though, it was really really great stuff.

 

As Paul has noted before, Virus's matwork has a real physicality to it that isn't communicated well on CMLL's TV. He's also great at using subtle leverage tricks to create counters, like kicking a guys foot out from underneath him. After they stood up it was only a few minutes of good work before they went to the finish. Still a very good match, I just can't see the MOTYC.

 

Trauma II vs. Blue Panther

 

The trend of CMLL guys working way harder on indie shows than they do in their home promotion is practically an epidemic by now. I wonder if they're getting paid more per appearance for these shows than they get from CMLL? Panther worked the mat at a pace that I didn't know he was capable of any more - actually a little too fast, as I would have liked to see them milk each individual hold a little more. Trauma II kept up admirably, though he doesn't quite have Panther's instincts on the mat (few do) and you could see the cogs turning with regard to how he should transition into his own hold a few times. I thought the stuff after they stood up was really good, especially the finishing stretch which was pretty dramatic. A good match.

 

Guerrero Maya vs. Guerrero Maya Jr.

 

Man this was a great brawl. All of Terry's offense is just fantastic; he was laying into Jr. with chops, punches, kicks and headbutts. I don't know if you see this kind of violence anywhere else in wrestling these days but indie lucha and Brock Lesnar matches. I thought they escalated well from the initial matwork to brawling, although I wouldn't have complained if they had just started off with the traditional posting of the guy during his entrance and gone straight to the mask ripping and brawling. The only complaints I had were I thought Terry popped up a little fast to start his comeback, and a number of execution issues which took me out of the moment a little. These types of awkward moments seem more common in lucha than elsewhere - I wonder if it's because matches are more frequently called in the ring? Those are the only things holding this back from being a strong MOTYC.

 

Hechicero/Ultimo Guerrero vs. Avisman/Caifan

 

This was mostly great stuff interspersed with enough annoying moments that I can't say it was a great match. I largely enjoyed the whole macho pissing contest vibe early on, and think lucha does that style so much better than, say, modern New Japan, but Hechicero and Caifan taking turns hitting bombs on each other was almost as goofy as Ishii and Shibata sitting down and presenting their chests to be kicked in the G1 last year.

 

The early matwork was both really good and had a real sense of urgency to it that was lacking in most of the other matwork on this show. I'm struggling to think of specific positive points to make note of here as it was just a real fun all-action workratey bout. The negatives stand out far more even though there were far fewer of them - a split-legged dropkick spot that had way too much standing around waiting to be hit, Guerrero's annoying tendency to stand around enjoying everyone cheering for him that disrupted the flow of a fast-paced match, Caifan just going into his own offense with no transition after being hit with a big move a couple times which is a huge pet peeve of mine. That botched Guerrero Especial looked like it killed Caifan, good lord. Hopefully we get another Caifan/Hechicero match out of this as those guys have good chemistry; I really enjoyed their match last year.

 

Trauma I vs. Pagano

 

Based on this, is it safe to say that rumors of Pagano sucking have been greatly exaggerated? Yes, the guy is sloppy, but he is also charismatic as hell, has a huge presence about him (at least in front of indie crowds like this) and has a viciousness to much of his offense. I wonder how much of the derision he receives online is as a result of working in a style that many people dislike, regardless of how well-worked the matches are.

 

That chairshot to the back of Trauma I's head early was sick and so ill-advised on Trauma's part. The dropkick from the apron looked as great as any of Rush's. The theatrics with the fork were great. The mask-ripped guy bleeding is always a great visual, but Trauma I with his mask and contacts made for a particularly fine example.

 

With the exception of one thing - I wish Trauma I had sold a little more immediately after the reversed whip into the chair that started his comeback - this was all just so great up until the rollup spot (seriously, rollups in a match like this? The fact that the ref was so slow to make the count didn't help), and though that took me out of it a bit they quickly got me back. Stabbing the fork into the knee to break the hold was a great idea for a spot that would've come off better if Trauma I wasn't wearing huge knee pads. Oh and I somehow almost forgot about the broken bottle usage, which I will always pop for. Just a brutal war and I hope they plan on doing this one again. Borderline MOTYC and it's between this and the Mayas match for MOTN.

 

All of these actually came off better on rewatch than on first viewing with the exception of Panther/Trauma II (a little worse) and the Mayas match (about the same). I can kinda see the SOTYC point now, although not having to sit through that loooong 4 way trios again probably helped my perception considerably.

[pol]

CMLL drew a nice house (maybe 10k+) tonight for LA Park/Atlantis/Volador Jr. vs. Dr Wagner Jr./La Sombra/Rush. I only caught the top two matches (missed the En Busca trios unfortunately) but everyone seemed to be energized by the big crowd and had their working boots on. I thought Rush especially really looked like he belonged in there with Park and Wagner which is a testament to his star potential. It looks like they're building to Rush/Wagner vs. Park/Volador for the Aniversario semimain while building to Rush vs. Park somewhere down the line. Hopefully they can parlay the interest Park and Wagner bring into some shine for the current crop of guys.